Colossians 1: Preexistence or Preeminence?

withwonderingawe

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Nathanael nor any other Israelite would ever call a man YHWH.

You can not get around that Yahweh was called many times King of Israel, he is also called father in the figurative sense because he brought them out of Egypt. However Malachi wrote "Have we not all one father? hath not one God/El created us?

Jesus is more than a man He is the Son of El, first born of the spirit and only begotten in flesh.

He was;

Creator of physical earth and maker of Israel
*Isa 45
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

* The Yahweh is the shepherd
Ps 80
Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, .....O Lord God of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people?

Ps 95 " ...let us kneel before the Lord our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand."
Jesus is the Shepherd
John 10: 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Heb 13 :20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

*The Rock
Deut 32
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

1 Cor 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

*Judge
Ps 9
7 But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Rom 14
"...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

* Living water
Jer 2 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.... Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

I think I'll stick to the Bible.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

In Gen 9 Noah gives a blessing to his sons, Shem receives the birth right blessing. He is told "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem", Yahweh would be the God of Shem, Shem was his prophet and the others would dwell in his tent.

But then in the next chapter the sons of Noah had multiplied so greatly they had become nations.

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

In Deut 32 there is a reference to that dividing however in the KJV there is a miss translation, the correct translation can be found in the Septuagint and verified in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it should read;

7 ¶ Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8 When the most High/'elyown divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God/El
9 For the Lord’s/Yahweh portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

It is Elyown who does the dividing and he gives Israel the descendants of Shem to Yahweh.

This not polytheism, it explains what was going on in Job 1 when the sons of God present themselves to Yahweh, why Jethro would say ‘Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods’ and why Yahweh bears the title of Lord of Host.

Isa 45 ‘ ..I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.’

In Ps 45 and repeated in Heb 1 where the writer let’s you know this is Jesus.

“Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

El is the Father, He anointed Yahweh/Jesus God above his fellows or the other lesser sons of God. At the time of the division El set Yahweh over the household of Shem because that is where the birth right went. He put the other lesser sons over the other nations as caretakers however they defer to Yahweh in all things.

Later in Gen 17, and remember Moses is writing this many years later and he knows it was the Lord speaking but Abraham does not he only knows him by God Almighty

7 the Lord appeared to Abram,... And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

The plural Elohim(s) is used all the through there, Yahweh his Father El and himself.

Yahweh is the mediator between mankind, the host of heaven and El. He alone was anointed God and Savior there is none else among.

*Ps 89 is an interesting passage and a mistranslated one;

"5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord/Yahweh: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the Holy Ones.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord?who among the sons of El can be likened unto the Lord?
7 El is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the Holy Ones, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

El is the supreme God and Father, Yahweh is his Son and greatest among the sons of El, none can compare to him.
 
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gadar perets

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You can not get around that Yahweh was called many times King of Israel, he is also called father in the figurative sense because he brought them out of Egypt. However Malachi wrote "Have we not all one father? hath not one God/El created us?
I am not trying to get around that. I embrace that. As the ultimate King of Israel and King of all Kings (including Yeshua), He (Father YHWH), appoints all other kings.

Jesus is more than a man He is the Son of El, first born of the spirit and only begotten in flesh.
I agree, but he is NOT YHWH.

He was;

Creator of physical earth and maker of Israel
*Isa 45
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
This refers to Father YHWH. Please explain how Yeshua (the lamb of Revelation 5:7) takes the book out of the Creator's hand.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
"... the world was made THROUGH him", not "by him". Learn the difference.

* The Yahweh is the shepherd
Ps 80
Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, .....O Lord God of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people?

Ps 95 " ...let us kneel before the Lord our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand."
Jesus is the Shepherd
John 10: 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Heb 13 :20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
They are both shepherds. Psalms 80 & 95 refer to Father YHWH and John 10:14 & Hebrews 13:10 refer to Yeshua.

Are you one of Yeshua's lambs? Is Yeshua a lamb? Does that make you Yeshua because you are both lambs? No. Neither does the title "shepherd" make Yeshua YHWH.


*The Rock
Deut 32
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

1 Cor 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
They are both Rocks. Cyrus is called YHWH's "maschiach" - "anointed" in Isaiah 45:1. Does that mean Cyrus is Yeshua because he is the "maschiach" (same word as "Messiah")?

*Judge
Ps 9
7 But the Lord shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Rom 14
"...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3 tells us the saints will judge the world and angels. Does that make the saints YHWH or Yeshua?

* Living water
Jer 2 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.... Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Father YHWH is the fountain from which the living water (the Holy Spirit) comes. Yeshua is the fountain THROUGH which the living water (Holy Spirit) comes.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter (Holy Spirit) is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:​

I think I'll stick to the Bible.
I wish you would stick to the Bible because, right now, you are sticking to your false interpretation of the Bible.
 
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gadar perets

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In Gen 9 Noah gives a blessing to his sons, Shem receives the birth right blessing. He is told "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem", Yahweh would be the God of Shem, Shem was his prophet and the others would dwell in his tent.

But then in the next chapter the sons of Noah had multiplied so greatly they had become nations.

32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

In Deut 32 there is a reference to that dividing however in the KJV there is a miss translation, the correct translation can be found in the Septuagint and verified in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it should read;

7 ¶ Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8 When the most High/'elyown divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God/El
9 For the Lord’s/Yahweh portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

It is Elyown who does the dividing and he gives Israel the descendants of Shem to Yahweh.
Elyon is YHWH. When He divided to the nations their inheritance, He retained Israel for Himself. He did NOT give it to YHWH. He is YHWH.

Psalm 47:2 For YHWH most high [Elyon] is terrible; He is a great King over all the earth.​

Psalm 91:9 Because thou hast made YHWH, which is my refuge, even the most High [Elyon], thy habitation;​

Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is YHWH, art the most high [Elyon] over all the earth.​

This not polytheism, it explains what was going on in Job 1 when the sons of God present themselves to Yahweh, why Jethro would say ‘Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods’ and why Yahweh bears the title of Lord of Host.
If YHWH, who you believe is the Son, is greater than all gods, then you are saying he is greater than Elyon, who you believe is the Father. YHWH bears the name + title "YHWH of Hosts" because He is YHWH Yeshua's Father. So, in reality, you have made the Son to be YHWH, the only true God, denying Yeshua's words that his Father is the only true God/Elohim (John 17:3). That is worse than polytheism because you have dethroned Father YHWH as the only true Elohim and exalted His Son into that position whereas polytheism adds more gods into that position.

Isa 45 ‘ ..I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.’
This is referring to Father YHWH, the only YHWH in Scripture.

In Ps 45 and repeated in Heb 1 where the writer let’s you know this is Jesus.

“Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”
I agree Psalm 45:6-7 refer to Yeshua. It applies the title "elohim" to him, not the name "YHWH". It also teaches us that Yeshua has a God over him, "thy God" (vs.7). Yeshua's God is Father YHWH, the only true God (John 17:3; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

El is the Father, He anointed Yahweh/Jesus God above his fellows or the other lesser sons of God. At the time of the division El set Yahweh over the household of Shem because that is where the birth right went. He put the other lesser sons over the other nations as caretakers however they defer to Yahweh in all things.
See above.

Later in Gen 17, and remember Moses is writing this many years later and he knows it was the Lord speaking but Abraham does not he only knows him by God Almighty

7 the Lord appeared to Abram,... And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

The plural Elohim(s) is used all the through there, Yahweh his Father El and himself.
I have no idea what you are trying to teach here.

Yahweh is the mediator between mankind, the host of heaven and El. He alone was anointed God and Savior there is none else among.
Still twisting Scripture even though 1 Timothy 2:5 tells us Yeshua is the mediator, not YHWH.

*Ps 89 is an interesting passage and a mistranslated one;

"5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord/Yahweh: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the Holy Ones.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord?who among the sons of El can be likened unto the Lord?
7 El is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the Holy Ones, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

El is the supreme God and Father, Yahweh is his Son and greatest among the sons of El, none can compare to him.
Above, you quoted Jethro in Exodus 18:11 to teach me that YHWH (who you say is the Son) is greater than all gods. Now you are teaching me that the Father is greater than all gods. You seem confused. Try believing what Scripture says and clarity will come to you.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Gadar Perets.

Your making a claim that the text does not support.
Obviously it was not a "man", but an angel appearing as a man.
The text states the following.

Joshua 5:14
Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down...

We know that this commander of the heavenly host allowed Joshua to worship Him.

This is the proof that the commander of the host was indeed the Lord of hosts.

Angels are not permitted to receive worship.
 
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gadar perets

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Hello Gadar Perets.

Your making a claim that the text does not support.

The text states the following.

Joshua 5:14
Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down...

We know that this commander of the heavenly host allowed Joshua to worship Him.

This is the proof that the commander of the host was indeed the Lord of hosts.

Angels are not permitted to receive worship.
We must both make certain assumptions, but my assumptions are Biblically based. "The Lord of hosts" is YHWH Himself, the Elohim that no man has ever seen. Therefore, it is an impossibility for Moses to be seeing him. Here are a few examples where YHWH and YHWH of hosts are used interchangeably.

Isaiah 14:22 "I will rise up against them," declares the YHWH of hosts, "and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, descendants and posterity," declares the YHWH.

Isaiah 51:15 I am the YHWH your God, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- YHWH of hosts is his name.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus says the YHWH, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- YHWH of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 33:11 the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voices of those who sing, as they bring thank offerings to the house of the YHWH: "'Give thanks to YHWH of hosts, for the YHWH is good, for his steadfast love endures forever!' For I will restore the fortunes of the land as at first, says the YHWH.

Jeremiah 35:13 "Thus says YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel: Go and say to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will you not receive instruction and listen to my words? declares the YHWH.​

On the other hand, we know YHWH used angels many times in the OT as messengers. We also know Michael is the "archangel" (chief angel) over His host. Therefore, the most logical assumption is that it is Michael, an angel. The commander was not receiving worship as though he was the only true Elohim. He was simply allowing Joshua to "bow down" to him. The Hebrew word translated "worship" was used in other places in that sense. For example, Abraham "bowed down" to the children of Heth in Genesis 23:7.

If you choose to reject my view, you must also reject your own view as merely an assumption. Therefore, Joshua 5:13-15 doesn't help either one of our views unless we make assumptions. Give me some factual verses to support your view that "Jesus" was a messenger in the OT. I'm pretty sure you can't without making bold assumptions and reading him into the text.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Gadar Perets.

The angels belong to Jesus, He is the commander of all the angels, for they were created for Him. I am not making assumptions, your assuming when you see a messenger in the Old Testament, that the messenger must be an angel. If the ground is holy where the messenger is standing, then the Word is standing on that ground. The Word can assume any form He chooses, at any time.
We must both make certain assumptions, but my assumptions are Biblically based. "The Lord of hosts" is YHWH Himself
I disagree, the Lord of hosts is the King of Kings, the Lord of hosts is also the Lord of Lords.

Revelations 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

His name is called, 'The Word of God'. This fellow has a name and rides a horse, he leads the angels in heaven.
Isaiah 14:22 "I will rise up against them," declares the YHWH of hosts, "and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, descendants and posterity," declares the YHWH.

Isaiah 51:15 I am the YHWH your God, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- YHWH of hosts is his name.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus says the YHWH, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- YHWH of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 33:11 the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voices of those who sing, as they bring thank offerings to the house of the YHWH: "'Give thanks to YHWH of hosts, for the YHWH is good, for his steadfast love endures forever!' For I will restore the fortunes of the land as at first, says the YHWH.

Jeremiah 35:13 "Thus says YHWH of hosts, the God of Israel: Go and say to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will you not receive instruction and listen to my words? declares the YHWH.​


These verses are talking about the King of kings (YHWH, the Word) and His juristiction over His creation.
On the other hand, we know YHWH used angels many times in the OT as messengers.
The messenger of YHWH is no ordinary messenger.
We also know Michael is the "archangel" (chief angel) over His host.
Michael I remember, is the arch angel that protects Israel, Michael controls some angels, not all the host of heaven.
Therefore, the most logical assumption is that it is Michael, an angel. The commander was not receiving worship as though he was the only true Elohim. He was simply allowing Joshua to "bow down" to him. The Hebrew word translated "worship" was used in other places in that sense. For example, Abraham "bowed down" to the children of Heth in Genesis 23:7.
Angels usually identify themselves, nor do they receive worship, nor is the ground holy where they stand.
If you choose to reject my view, you must also reject your own view as merely an assumption.
As I said before Gadar Perets, I resist the urge to assume anything within the scripture.
Therefore, Joshua 5:13-15 doesn't help either one of our views unless we make assumptions. Give me some factual verses to support your view that "Jesus" was a messenger in the OT. I'm pretty sure you can't without making bold assumptions and reading him into the text.
The scripture is all about Jesus, how could I possibly be making bold assumptions?

The scripture is simply the revelation of the Christ from Genesis to Revelations. Creation exists solely for Jesus, the angels exist purely for Jesus. The Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, will subject everything to Himself.
 
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gadar perets

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Hello Gadar Perets.
The angels belong to Jesus, He is the commander of all the angels, for they were created for Him. I am not making assumptions, your assuming when you see a messenger in the Old Testament, that the messenger must be an angel. If the ground is holy where the messenger is standing, then the Word is standing on that ground. The Word can assume any form He chooses, at any time.
Yes, Yeshua is the commander of all angels (now), but he wasn't back then. He did not receive all authority until after birth.

As for holy ground, Moses stood on holy ground at the burning bush as he spoke with the Angel of YHWH. The NT confirms it was a angel in Acts 7:30. Even the translators understood it wasn't Yeshua when they chose the word "angel" in Exodus 3:2 as opposed to the word "messenger" used for Yeshua in Malachi 3:1.

I disagree, the Lord of hosts is the King of Kings, the Lord of hosts is also the Lord of Lords.
Artaxerxes and Nebuchadrezzar are both called king of kings. Were they Yeshua in his supposed preexistent state? YHWH is the King of all kings and Lord of all lords, including King and Lord of Yeshua. Yeshua is King and Lord over all earthly lords.

His name is called, 'The Word of God'. This fellow has a name and rides a horse, he leads the angels in heaven.
I agree. His Father YHWH made him to be such.
These verses are talking about the King of kings (YHWH, the Word) and His juristiction over His creation.
They are talking about Yeshua's Father, not Yeshua. I gave you several verses that dogmatically declare YHWH to be Yeshua's Father. All you have given me are verses where you read the Son into the text to force him to be YHWH.

As I said before Gadar Perets, I resist the urge to assume anything within the scripture.
Actually, you are not resisting that urge, but yielding to it.

The scripture is all about Jesus, how could I possibly be making bold assumptions?

The scripture is simply the revelation of the Christ from Genesis to Revelations. Creation exists solely for Jesus, the angels exist purely for Jesus. The Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, will subject everything to Himself.
The Scriptures write about Yeshua, but the main theme of Scripture is about how Father YHWH would redeem a fallen world to Himself, give them victory over sin, and give them eternal life in His Kingdom, all through His Son Yeshua. Yes, Father YHWH created all things for His Son, but He also created them for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11).

As far as everything being subject to Yeshua, not quite. One being is NOT subject to him, Father YHWH.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For He (YHWH) hath put all things under his (Yeshua's) feet. But when He saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that He (YHWH) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Yeshua).
Right now, Yeshua is subject to YHWH as his King, Lord and God.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Gadar Perets.

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, Yeshua is the commander of all angels (now), but he wasn't back then. He did not receive all authority until after birth.
The messengers were created for the Word, the Word owned all the messengers in the beginning. Then the Word humbled Himself and became flesh, i.e., became the Son. Your seeing the Word as Jesus, yet the Word existed before Bethlehem.

Philippians 2
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

The Word emptied Himself and then took on the likeness of men. The text states that, He emptied Himself, now Gadar Perets, what did He empty Himself of?
As for holy ground, Moses stood on holy ground at the burning bush as he spoke with the Angel of YHWH. The NT confirms it was a angel in Acts 7:30. Even the translators understood it wasn't Yeshua when they chose the word "angel" in Exodus 3:2 as opposed to the word "messenger" used for Yeshua in Malachi 3:1.
Nevertheless, Moses knew who was really standing in the bush, the text says it was YHWH.

Exodus 3
Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

How can Moses be afraid to look at a mere messenger?
Artaxerxes and Nebuchadrezzar are both called king of kings.
Yes but they do not command the heavenly host.
Were they Yeshua in his supposed preexistent state?
Your confused, the Word becomes Jesus at Bethlehem.
YHWH is the King of all kings and Lord of all lords, including King and Lord of Yeshua. Yeshua is King and Lord over all earthly lords.
No Gadar Perets, Jesus is Lord of heaven and earth, not just the Lord of earthly authorities.
I agree. His Father YHWH made him to be such.
The Father begat the Son, yet the Word was with the Father in the beginning.
They are talking about Yeshua's Father, not Yeshua. I gave you several verses that dogmatically declare YHWH to be Yeshua's Father. All you have given me are verses where you read the Son into the text to force him to be YHWH.
Not forcing the Son into the text, revealing the Word in the text.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Scriptures write about Yeshua, but the main theme of Scripture is about how Father YHWH would redeem a fallen world to Himself, give them victory over sin, and give them eternal life in His Kingdom, all through His Son Yeshua. Yes, Father YHWH created all things for His Son, but He also created them for His pleasure (Revelation 4:11).
The Word was God, the Word created all things, the Word humbled Himself and became one of us.
One being is NOT subject to him, Father YHWH.
The Word and the Father are one in the same God. Your looking at the temporary existence of the Word in the form of the Son, then using that temporary positional identity to understand God.

Your confused Gadar Perets.
 
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gadar perets

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The messengers were created for the Word, the Word owned all the messengers in the beginning. Then the Word humbled Himself and became flesh, i.e., became the Son. Your seeing the Word as Jesus, yet the Word existed before Bethlehem.

Philippians 2
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

The Word emptied Himself and then took on the likeness of men. The text states that, He emptied Himself, now Gadar Perets, what did He empty Himself of?
What does Philippians 2:5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua. If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name "Messiah Yeshua". That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

As a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form (or likeness) of God." It does not say he "was God." Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself YHWH's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father YHWH. As a reward for his obedience, YHWH has highly exalted him.

Nevertheless, Moses knew who was really standing in the bush, the text says it was YHWH.
There is only one YHWH and no man has ever seen Him. Moses was conversing with an angel who, as YHWH's representative/agent, speaks as though he is YHWH. It is called the "law of agency". "The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion," Adama Books, New York, 1986, pg.15 reads, "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself."

Exodus 3
Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

How can Moses be afraid to look at a mere messenger?
This was Moses' first encounter with a heavenly being. He thought he was seeing God. Angels are not "mere messengers". Men are "mere messengers".

No Gadar Perets, Jesus is Lord of heaven and earth, not just the Lord of earthly authorities.
I agree he is Lord of heaven and earth. I said he is Lord of earthly authorities because there are no Lords in heaven besides YHWH and he certainly is not Lord of YHWH.

The Father begat the Son, yet the Word was with the Father in the beginning.

Not forcing the Son into the text, revealing the Word in the text.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was God, the Word created all things, the Word humbled Himself and became one of us.

The Word and the Father are one in the same God. Your looking at the temporary existence of the Word in the form of the Son, then using that temporary positional identity to understand God.

Your confused Gadar Perets.
No confusion on my part. You are making a thing (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts - the logos) into a person. There is nothing in John 1:1-5 to suggest the logos was a person except via bias translations. The word "Word" was capitalized to make it seem like the name of a person and the pronouns "he" and "him" were used instead of it to again make it refer to a person. Translations preceding the KJV translated John 1:3-5 as follows;

All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And that light shineth in the darkenesse, and the darkenesse comprehended it not.(Geneva Bible).'
Tyndale's Bible and the Great Bible are other major translations that translated the passage similarly. The logos eventually became the "Word".
 
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...It is Elyown who does the dividing and he gives Israel the descendants of Shem to Yahweh...
Hello. Let me give you an orthodox Judeo-Christian response to this interpretation.

In this verse the Most High and YHWH are indeed the same. This is because of the Jewish tradition surrounding it (which Joseph Smith was probably unaware of). God divided mankind into 70 nations and appointed an angel (of the high-ranking 'son of God' type) over each. The number 70 is fixed in ancient Jewish tradition and can be seen in such sources as the Targums. So, according to the Jews there were 70 nations and 70 angels. Was YHWH one of the 70 angels? No, because Israel wasn't one of the 70 nations. The 70 nations are listed in Genesis 10 and Israel isn't among them. So how could YHWH have been one of the 70 angels if Israel wasn't one of the 70 nations? Answer, he wasn't.

The Jews have never considered themselves one of the 70 nations. They consider themselves a subsequent nation: God's own personal nation created when he called Abraham.
 
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klutedavid

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What does Philippians 2:5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua. If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name "Messiah Yeshua". That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word." Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

As a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form (or likeness) of God." It does not say he "was God." Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself YHWH's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father YHWH. As a reward for his obedience, YHWH has highly exalted him.


There is only one YHWH and no man has ever seen Him. Moses was conversing with an angel who, as YHWH's representative/agent, speaks as though he is YHWH. It is called the "law of agency". "The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion," Adama Books, New York, 1986, pg.15 reads, "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself."


This was Moses' first encounter with a heavenly being. He thought he was seeing God. Angels are not "mere messengers". Men are "mere messengers".


I agree he is Lord of heaven and earth. I said he is Lord of earthly authorities because there are no Lords in heaven besides YHWH and he certainly is not Lord of YHWH.


No confusion on my part. You are making a thing (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts - the logos) into a person. There is nothing in John 1:1-5 to suggest the logos was a person except via bias translations. The word "Word" was capitalized to make it seem like the name of a person and the pronouns "he" and "him" were used instead of it to again make it refer to a person. Translations preceding the KJV translated John 1:3-5 as follows;

All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And that light shineth in the darkenesse, and the darkenesse comprehended it not.(Geneva Bible).'
Tyndale's Bible and the Great Bible are other major translations that translated the passage similarly. The logos eventually became the "Word".
Hello Gadar Perets.

The following verses present a problem for you, you need to address this issue.

Philippians 2 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

There are two seperate acts of the Word humbling Himself, you must admit to this Gadar Perets.

No created entity could ever take the form of God, that is impossible Gadar Perets. This verse is not stating that Jesus became God like. Read the verse again, 'He existed in the form of God', that is past tense, then follows,'did not regard EQUALITY with God', a thing to be held onto (grasped).

The fact, the Word first emptied Himself and then was made in the likeness of men. This verse does not say that Jesus was born and then emptied Himself. It says the opposite, the Word humbled Himself then took on human likeness! After being made in human likeness, we have Jesus realizing He was in human form, then Jesus humbles Himself again to the point of death.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Gadar Perets.

Thanks for the reply.
What does Philippians 2:5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua before or after his earthly birth?
The verses refer to two acts of the Word humbling Himself, not one.
Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yeshua. If Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name "Messiah Yeshua".
I have already stated that.
That name can only be applied to the historical Yeshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as "the Word."
Correct.
Yeshua did not officially become "the Anointed" or "the Messiah" until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).
The Word became flesh, the Word is eternal and has many names. Jesus was worshiped after He was born, and Herod sought to destroy the child. The messiah was the messiah the moment He was born, the baptism was an external verification.
As a child, Yeshua "waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him" (Luke 2:40). Even at that time Yeshua knew who he was, knew who his Father was (Luke 2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was "in the form (or likeness) of God." It does not say he "was God."
Nonsense, a created entity cannot become like God.

Jesus said that He came from above, Jesus was not from below, not earthly, and definitely not Mary's offspring.
Yet, Yeshua did not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider himself YHWH's equal.
Jesus proclaimed His divinity.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

Are you saying Gadar Perets, that Jesus was not the perfect copy of the Father?
He knew his Father was greater than himself (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Philippians 2:6 as follows; "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."
The Word had humbled Himself, hence He refers to His Father as greater than Himself.
The lesson Paul was teaching the Philippians.
Yeshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory.
Oh yes He did, the Word shared the glory with the Father, they are the same God.
He simply humbled himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.
Jesus openly proclaimed His divinity.
In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by becoming totally obedient to the laws and will of His Father YHWH. As a reward for his obedience, YHWH has highly exalted him.
Incorrect, The Word surrendered everything and received it back again.
There is only one YHWH and no man has ever seen Him. Moses was conversing with an angel who, as YHWH's representative/agent, speaks as though he is YHWH. It is called the "law of agency". "The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion," Adama Books, New York, 1986, pg.15 reads, "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself."
The text states that Moses saw God.
This was Moses' first encounter with a heavenly being. He thought he was seeing God. Angels are not "mere messengers". Men are "mere messengers".
Moses was afraid to look at YHWH.
I agree he is Lord of heaven and earth. I said he is Lord of earthly authorities because there are no Lords in heaven besides YHWH and he certainly is not Lord of YHWH.
Not Lord of YHWH, the Word was YHWH, the Word is YHWH, and the Word is coming again.
No confusion on my part. You are making a thing (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts - the logos) into a person. There is nothing in John 1:1-5 to suggest the logos was a person except via bias translations. The word "Word" was capitalized to make it seem like the name of a person and the pronouns "he" and "him" were used instead of it to again make it refer to a person. Translations preceding the KJV translated John 1:3-5 as follows;

All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And that light shineth in the darkenesse, and the darkenesse comprehended it not.(Geneva Bible).'
Tyndale's Bible and the Great Bible are other major translations that translated the passage similarly. The logos eventually became the "Word".
The Word was with God and the Word was God.

How could you ever say that the Word is an expression, when the Word was God?
 
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gadar perets

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Hello Gadar Perets.

The following verses present a problem for you, you need to address this issue.
I already addressed them. You rejected my interpretation.

Philippians 2 (NASB)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

There are two seperate acts of the Word humbling Himself, you must admit to this Gadar Perets.
I agree. Reread my post where I address him "further" humbling himself. His first humbling was to be of no reputation even though he was greater than all.

No created entity could ever take the form of God, that is impossible Gadar Perets. This verse is not stating that Jesus became God like. Read the verse again, 'He existed in the form of God', that is past tense, then follows,'did not regard EQUALITY with God', a thing to be held onto (grasped).
If "in the form of God" means he was God, then how can he not be equal to God? It is past tense because Paul is writing about things that happened in the past. The past tense does not mean he existed in eternity past. Yeshua said, "He that has seen me has seen the Father". He obviously was NOT saying he was his own Father. What he meant was that he so perfectly represented the Father that he was in the form of God the Father.

The fact, the Word first emptied Himself and then was made in the likeness of men. This verse does not say that Jesus was born and then emptied Himself. It says the opposite, the Word humbled Himself then took on human likeness! After being made in human likeness, we have Jesus realizing He was in human form, then Jesus humbles Himself again to the point of death.
How does a being go from being God to outwardly appearing as a baby bond servant to being made in the likeness of man? Therefore, your timeline is wrong. Also, As a baby, Yeshua certainly was not a bond servant.
 
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Jesus said that He came from above, Jesus was not from below, not earthly, and definitely not Mary's offspring.
He was stating his heavenly origin, not that he was a heavenly being that somehow became a man.
He existed in YHWH's plan of salvation until YHWH spoke him into existence.

Jesus proclaimed His divinity.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

Are you saying Gadar Perets, that Jesus was not the perfect copy of the Father?
He was the perfect COPY of the Father, but not the Father Himself. Therefore, he was not proclaiming divinity as there is only one divine being.

Not Lord of YHWH, the Word was YHWH, the Word is YHWH, and the Word is coming again.
... The Word was with God and the Word was God.
... How could you ever say that the Word is an expression, when the Word was God?
The Greek does not say, "the Word was God". The English reverses the word order. A more correct rendering would be, "what God was the word was". A thorough study of this issue can be found here.
 
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Yes, I am familiar with this as I am a trinitarian. However, I am trying to understand the Socinian perspective. I gather that they believe the word existed with God prior to the incarnation. They simply reject that it was a person prior to the incarnation.

Socinianism being a 16-17th century development theologically, would interpret scripture in their own manner, I think this study does not include Mariology and nor does it include the history of the Israelite's.


The first issue is that you cannot separate the Israelite's from the Canaanite's as that is where the Israelite's come from. Even now the Hebrew is defunct Canaanite language. Quick example, we see the Canaanite God Ba'al as a storm God, while we see Yahweh as also a storm God, so we see a connection among Godly figures in Ancient Near East cultures.


Secondly to get into Mariology, during the 16th century Reformation, Protestants accused the Roman Catholic Church of harboring ideas and practices which had been taken over from the Greco-Roman world. This was considered to be a serious charge, since the goal of Christianity, so the accusers claimed, was to replace paganism with the vera religio (true religion), not to continue it under a different name.


The often crude and aggressive attacks by Protestants, especially during the era when polemics was a favorite discipline, were strongly countered by Roman Catholic scholars. No area of Roman Catholic theology has received more attention in this debate than the role accorded and the devotion paid to the Virgin Mary. The literature on this topic is so extensive that it is nearly unmanageable, but even a casual acquaintance with Protestant criticism of Mariology reveals that it's in this particular area that the charge of "paganism" is most often heard.


Hence, in its veneration of the Virgin Mary, not only did Roman Catholic Christianity absorb many elements of the cults of Greek and Roman goddesses, but Mary in effect replaced these deities and continued them in a Christian form.


This is the view to which the Jesuit scholar Karl Priimm responded in his book Der Christliche Glaube und die altheidnische Welt. Prümm investigated the similarities between the ancient goddesses and Mary and quoted many scholars who asserted that in Mary the ancient "mother of the gods" had returned in new glory. After reviewing these mother goddesses and discussing extensively the philosophy of their cults, he concluded that the Marian dogma cannot be deduced from pagan precedents and, furthermore, it was not even encouraged, promoted, or sidetracked by them for one simple and obvious reason: the fundamental principle of Mariology is the motherhood of Mary and this is the greatest argument supporting the full humanity of Jesus. Consequently, Mary could never have been and could never become a goddess in the pagan sense because this would remove one of the two major pillars upon which all orthodox Christian theology rests. Prümm's logic is impeccable, and his statement that the basic principle of Mariology is the motherhood of Mary is undeniable: all later Mariological dogmas and theses are based on this principle. And yet one wonders why he found it necessary to research the history of the mother goddesses and to refute and deny any connection between them and Mary so extensively if he did not have reasons to believe that such connections might exist.


A similar view concerning the origin of Mariology was forwarded from an unexpected side. Leonhard Fendt, in his Gnostische Mysterien. Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des Christlichen Gottesdienstes, investigated the Gnostic communion feasts and compared them with Christian developments. In discussing the Gnostic Markos, he analyzed the role of Markos' "Charis," whom Fendt called "a Hellenistic form of the mother of gods." This led him to explore the role of Mary in orthodox Christian theology as contrasted with the female figures in Gnostic systems; he concluded that the cult of Mary grew out of Christianity quite independently. Fendt specifically rejected the possibility that the cult of Mary had anything to do with the syncretistic cult of the Great Mother. But he, too, was faced with problems: the Kollyridians, for example, about whom he could say only that they were an exception and an isolated phenomenon, identified Mary with the Great Mother. He also quoted a number of Ophite hymns from Origen, Contra Celsum 6.31, "which could be in a Catholic prayer book if one replaces 'Charis' with 'Mary.'" Fendt's book is so rich in insights that even now, sixty-five years after its publication, it is still widely read. In this book, Fendt concluded that while there is nothing new under the sun, new things can come into the world from above and this is exactly what happened in the case of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the cult of the Madonna is also something new and different from the pagan cults because of the Spirit of Jesus. That is the reason, Fendt said, why Catholics refuse to be called the revivers of the cults of the mother of the gods.


Modernly of course many authors would point to Marian piety as the natural outgrowth of the goddess-cults in the ancient world. But just what is the connection? Is it correct to say that the cult of the Virgin was merely "influenced by pagan practices," or that it simply "absorbed" and "assimilated" some ideas that were current among people who embraced Christianity? T o point out similarities, interesting parallels between the cults of fertility goddesses and the cult of Mary, would be a waste of time because it would not demonstrate anything that has not been known in the past.


The goal is to show that there were powerful causative influences from Greco-Roman religions that shaped the form of Mariology. The biblical roots of Mariology have been sufficiently analyzed; we could inquire into some extra-biblical sources of Marian piety, belief, and doctrine. I propose that there is a direct line, unbroken and clearly discernible, from the goddess-cults of the ancients to the reverence paid and eventually the cult accorded to the Virgin Mary. We can go onto this later about parallel’s in non-Christian roots versus Christian roots, but on to the more important topic if virgin birth. Also, we can see parallels in Old Testament literature as compared with New Testament literature, hence the Bible parallels itself.


Mary was impregnated by the creative word of God: this is what we call "virgin birth." The phrase means that Mary "did not know man," i.e., a male, prior to the conception and birth of Jesus. This point is important because her virginal condition means that Mary's unspoiled purity and innocence parallels the unspoiled state of creation when "the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters."



Accordingly, the gospel of Luke emphasizes that the angel Gabriel was sent to a virgin in Nazareth; the Spirit of God overshadowed her and entered into her as into pure soil; thus the new creative word of God was sown. The Christian recorder of the prologue to the Gospel of Luke thus established a parallel with Genesis 1 which would be more fully developed by later authors who would draw a parallel between the "virgin earth" and the virgin condition of Mary's body.


Neither did it escape their attention that both in Genesis 1 and in the conception of Jesus the "word of God" was the seminal agent.


A virgin, as someone who is not engaged in sexual activity either as male or female, is in a sense "neither male nor female," as the sayings of Jesus describe those entering the kingdom of God. Virgins are thus in that state of paradisaical innocence which existed before sin entered the world and man was separated from God. Not subject to the same limitations of the human condition as others, they are, in a manner of speaking, between humanity and God. A virgin stands "for continuity in its most pure state" because "she remain as she had been first created." Her body is "a clear echo of the virgin earth of Paradise — untouched earth that bore within itself the promise of undreamed-of abundance."


The Virgin Mary was the "virgin earth," and thus a perfect choice for the female counterpart in the process of the "new creation."


What happened in the 'Virgin Birth"? Two elements — heaven and earth, spirit and flesh, holy and profane — commingled and a second creation took place: the "second Adam" was caused to appear, he "who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility ... that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace." Without Mary, this could not have happened; here her figure reaches those cosmic proportions that will more fully appear in Revelation.


Protestants like to point out that the Virgin Birth is a statement about Jesus and not about Mary. That is only partly true. Those who wrote down the infancy narratives of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke may have had Jesus at the center of their attention, but they could not possibly ignore Mary. In Christian belief the conception and birth of Jesus is a cosmic event and Mary is a necessary part of that event.

The apocryphal Gospel of Bartholomew reflects the popular belief in the importance of Mary's motherhood. Here the disciples ask her how she conceived and carried "him who cannot be carried or how she bore so much greatness." At first she refuses to answer and warns the disciples that such a mystery cannot be spoken of without great and dangerous consequences. When the disciples insist, Mary begins the story, but she can go only up to the point where the angel came to her. "As she was saying this, fire came from her mouth, and the world was on the point of being burned up. Then came Jesus quickly and said to Mary: 'Say no more, or today my whole creation will come to an end.'"


According to this passage, Mary conceived and bore more than the human side of Jesus; she bore the creator of the world. Her image is that of the divine mother, the female who is part of the cosmic creative process. And this is not far from the image of the "Great Mother of the gods" to whom our ancestors were so deeply devoted. Christianity did not add a new element to religion when it introduced into its theology such concepts as "virgin" and "mother"; rather, it sharpened and refined images that already existed in numerous forms in pagan mythology. If these images are archetypes, then they belong to the "collective unconscious" of humankind; each generation inherits them; they are permanent parts of the human species, biologically determined. Those who find this Jungian theory unacceptable would say that these images are learned and not inherited, but in either case it cannot

be denied that here we are dealing with universal human experiences.


Our earliest memories are likely to come from our mothers; our concept of life is inseparable from that of the womb; our concept of nurturance is female, and everybody has some understanding of the mother-child relationship. Whatever its source, a study of ancient history shows that goddess-worship has been an important aspect of human religion from earliest times. The diversity of pagan divinities must not be denied:


Sekhnet was goddess of plague and punishment, Bellona of war, etc. However, what those usually called "fertility goddesses" represented was the same in every age and every place.


Thus, it cannot be said that Isis and Cybele were historically identical; obviously they were not; functionally, however, they were in some respects equivalent. The best proof of this fact is the syncretism which was generally accepted by everyone during the early centuries of Christianity; if such functional equivalency had not existed among the goddesses, the later syncretism could never have happened. Already in the fifth century B.C. Herodotus identified the Greek gods with those of the Egyptians, and by the second century A.D., Apuleius could assertively make Isis identify herself with most of the major goddesses known at that time. Apuleius was a devotee of Isis. That his claim could have been accepted by those devoted to the other goddesses is unlikely. But at the least he shows us how syncretism could be used to claim for one or another cult far wider validity than it previously had been thought to have. For Apuleius, Isis is "the natural mother of all things, mistress and governess of all the elements." Only the names under which she is worshipped are different. So did Lucius invoke her help "by whatever name or fashion or shape it is lawful to call upon thee" until she came and restored his corrupted shape back to its original unspoiled form; from an ass he became a man again.


If we change the name Isis in the story of Lucius' conversion to Mary, we are already speaking in a Mariological context. Even though the dramatis personne clearly belong to the pagan world, the function of Isis is that of the great goddess through whom a "new creation" takes place, the effects of a "curse" are reversed, and Lucius is saved. When Apuleius wrote this tale, Christians were already comparing the Virgin Mary to Eve and were beginning to draw parallels between the woman who was the cause of mankind's fall and the woman who was the cause of redemption. Pagan and Christian concepts of the role of the "woman" here run side by side until the pagan concept converges with the Christian one and Mary emerges supreme.


T o demonstrate this development, to show how the pagan "queen of heaven" gradually became the Christian "queen of heaven," we must follow a chronological method of investigation to illustrate our thesis adequately.


A topical treatment of Mariology is a legitimate approach; in order to show the continuity of the reverence paid to the female aspect of God. This can best be done by proceeding along chronological lines. This procedure will also reveal that the goddess-cult of most decisive influence on the emerging Christian Church was that of Magna Mater, that is, Cybele, and therefore, that the geographic center of nascent Mariology was western Asia Minor. This does not mean that other goddesses, such as Isis, did not play a formative role in Christianity. The study of Christian iconography, to mention only one field, has shown how much we inherited from the pious worshippers of Isis. On the level of popular devotion Isis left many marks of the cult of Mary.


However, it seems to me that Mariology was more substantially determined by the theology of the Great Mother than by any other fertility goddess. It was the motherhood of Mary which became the point of connection between her figure and the pagan goddess concept, and I should like to recall once more that the basic principle of Mariology, from which everything else flows, is the fact that she was the mother of Jesus. I will, therefore, attempt to show how the early Christian theologians used the motherhood of Mary to connect her with the events described in Genesis 3 and how this then led to the use of such epithets for Mary as "the cause of salvation" which eventually raised her image into a cosmic perspective.


The vehicle by which many ideas connected with Magna Mater were transferred into Christianity was the Montanist movement. Obviously, there were other important movements in the second century. One of these in which the feminine element also played a significant role was Gnosticism, which, as has been shown, may also have absorbed ideas from the worship of Cybele.


The impact of the Gnostic understanding of the feminine element upon mainstream Christianity, however, would require another study


I will stop here and allow you to answer.
 
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Peter1000

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I am not trying to get around that. I embrace that. As the ultimate King of Israel and King of all Kings (including Yeshua), He (Father YHWH, appoints all other kings.


I agree, but he is NOT YHWH.


This refers to Father YHWH. Please explain how Yeshua (the lamb of Revelation 5:7) takes the book out of the Creator's hand.


"... the world was made THROUGH him", not "by him". Learn the difference.


They are both shepherds. Psalms 80 & 95 refer to Father YHWH and John 10:14 & Hebrews 13:10 refer to Yeshua.

Are you one of Yeshua's lambs? Is Yeshua a lamb? Does that make you Yeshua because you are both lambs? No. Neither does the title "shepherd" make Yeshua YHWH.



They are both Rocks. Cyrus is called YHWH's "maschiach" - "anointed" in Isaiah 45:1. Does that mean Cyrus is Yeshua because he is the "maschiach" (same word as "Messiah")?


1 Corinthians 6:2-3 tells us the saints will judge the world and angels. Does that make the saints YHWH or Yeshua?


Father YHWH is the fountain from which the living water (the Holy Spirit) comes. Yeshua is the fountain THROUGH which the living water (Holy Spirit) comes.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter (Holy Spirit) is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:​


I wish you would stick to the Bible because, right now, you are sticking to your false interpretation of the Bible.
Who brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt?
1) YHWH?

OR

2) Yeshua?
 
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Peter1000

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I agree with you. It was YHWH that followed Israel and brought her out of Egypt through the Red sea.


It was YHWH that provided bread and meat and water both physical and spiritual.

It was YHWH that overthrew many in the wilderness for rejecting Him.

It was YHWH that was angry with Israel for rising up to play and in 1 day 23,000 fell.

It was YHWH that sent fiery serpents into the camp and destroyed many for tempting Him.

You can read about YHWH and Israel coming out of Egypt in 1 Corinthians. Here is what Paul says:
1 Corinthians 10:1-9
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them (ancient Israel) also tempted (Christ), and were destroyed of serpents.
(my parenthesis)

As you can see, Paul tells us that YHWH and Christ (Jesus) are the same person. Christ was ancient Israels rock. Christ was Paul's rock.

Paul said let us not tempt Christ, as ancient Israel tempted Christ.

I believe Paul, I believe our leaders today that tell us that Jesus Christ himself has told them that he is YHWH, the God of the OT, and the incarnated Jesus Christ of the NT, the firstborn spirit Son of God/Elohim, the only begotten Son in the flesh of God/Elohim.
 
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