Former evangelical's thoughts on the Rapture and Protestantism in general

Danoh

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I have been very low for a long time. But I am still here. When I had my last surgery and they told me what they found, a doctor told me I had been down to "any day now." But I am slowly getting stronger again.

You're in my prayers, bro.

Especially as to the joy awaiting you in The Lord!

Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
 
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Adstar

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Actually, the various views are...

No Rapture;

Pre-Trib Rapture;

Mid-Trib Rapture;

Pre-Wrath Rapture;

Post-Trib Rapture.

Yes i have heard of all those stances.. Some of them are rubbery .. The Mid-Trib one seem to be held by people who have a great veriety of interpretations of it.. I believe in the Day of the LORD Rapture :D That it will happen on the day of the Return of our LORD Jesus Christ..
 
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Biblewriter

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Yes i have heard of all those stances.. Some of them are rubbery .. The Mid-Trib one seem to be held by people who have a great veriety of interpretations of it.. I believe in the Day of the LORD Rapture :D That it will happen on the day of the Return of our LORD Jesus Christ..
That is the view called Post trib.
 
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Biblewriter

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Yes thats the one. But what i call it gives more defintion.. Puts it's timing on a particular Day.. It is definite in that way..
You are correct that this is a more specific definition. But in saying this, you neglect the fact that the prophetic descriptions of our Lord's return contain details that would be flat contradictions if they all took place at the same time.

Tis is exactly what the Holy Spirit did in the Old Testament, when He spoke of the coming Messiah. He spoke of a coming Messiah that would be a great conqueroring hero, and also of a coming Messiah who would me a meek and suffering servant, who would die for His people. He told us through Peter that even the prophets He used to utter these statements did not understand this apparent contradiction.

Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to this apparent contradiction was that their great Messiah would come to them more than just one time. In this, He gave us a key to understand the apparent contradictions between His various statements about our Lord's return. He is also returning more than just one time.

We know that He will come in power and glory to deliver Israel and to judge the world. So the time when He comes for us has to be a different time. It could not be after that time, because if He were already in the world, He could not descend from heaven to take us. So the other time has to be before He comes to deliver Israel and to judge the world.
 
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You are correct that this is a more specific definition. But in saying this, you neglect the fact that the prophetic descriptions of our Lord's return contain details that would be flat contradictions if they all took place at the same time.

Where? Calling them contraditions only reveals a lack of understanding of the reader rather then the fault of the Author..


Tis is exactly what the Holy Spirit did in the Old Testament, when He spoke of the coming Messiah. He spoke of a coming Messiah that would be a great conqueroring hero, and also of a coming Messiah who would me a meek and suffering servant, who would die for His people. He told us through Peter that even the prophets He used to utter these statements did not understand this apparent contradiction.

This is a classic example of there being no contraditction. But it being called contradictory because the readers ( in this case the Jewish religious ) where limited in understanding..


Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to this apparent contradiction was that their great Messiah would come to them more than just one time. In this, He gave us a key to understand the apparent contradictions between His various statements about our Lord's return. He is also returning more than just one time.


Well....a cautious Yes.... The first time He returned was on the Day of penticost in the form of the Holy Spirit.. The second time He returns will be in the form of The LORD Jesus Christ on the Day of the LORD revealed in Both the OT and NT..

We know that He will come in power and glory to deliver Israel and to judge the world. So the time when He comes for us has to be a different time. It could not be after that time, because if He were already in the world, He could not descend from heaven to take us. So the other time has to be before He comes to deliver Israel and to judge the world.

Nope. I disagree with you.. He comes in the clouds at the second coming and sends out His angels to collect His Saints Both dead and those still remaining at the Last trumpet.. If you read Matthew 24 the Day of the LORD shown there includes a trumpet blast.. The catching up ( Rapture ) of the Saints happens on the Last trumpet.. 1 Corinthians 15 gives one of the best and most detailed descriptions of the rapture it states:::

1 Corinthians 15: KJV
51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

And Jesus revealed the same thing about the Day of his return in Matthew 24:::

Matthew 24:KJV
30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So Both scriptures revea the sounding of a trumpet.. And the one revealing the rapture says it shall be the last trumpet.. So the rapture cannot possibly happen before the return of Jesus.. Therfore the Day of the Lord must also be the Day of the rapture. Because Matthew 24 reveals the gathering of the elect..
 
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Biblewriter

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Where? Calling them contraditions only reveals a lack of understanding of the reader rather then the fault of the Author..


Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.” This is reinforced by Joel 2:1-2, where we read that “For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.”

This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” As we noticed before, one scripture clearly shows that no one “can stand when He appears,” while another tells us to “pray that you may be counted worthy... to stand before the Son of Man.” Are we to imagine that our God exhorted us to pray for something that could not happen? Or do we realize that these two scriptures refer to two different future times.

Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.


The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

The scriptures plainly teach us that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about the future plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event


Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

(continued next post)
 
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Biblewriter

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(continued from previous post)

All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”

But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”

In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, we read of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He comes “with all His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two events might be, but they clearly indicate that they occur in sequence.
Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the rest of the scriptures.

Looking again at John 14:2-3, we read, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
In this scripture, our Lord first refers to His Father’s house, saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” He then says that he is going “to prepare a place for you.” From this statement it is plain that the place to which He was going “to prepare a place for you” was His “Father’s house.” But He said He was going there “to prepare a place for you” He was going to His “Father’s house,” “to prepare a place for you.” And that is the place from which he “will come again, and receive you unto myself.” But what is the purpose of this coming? “That where I am, there ye may be also.” This scripture does not present a picture of coming, picking us up along the way, and taking us with Himself to another place. It presents a picture of coming to get us and taking us back to where he came from, that is, His “Father’s house.” That is where He has gone “to prepare a place” for us. That is where He is, and that is where he will take us, for the stated purpose of this coming is “that where I am, there you may be also.”

But the purpose of His coming “with all His saints” is entirely different, for we read in Jude 14-15, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15) The purpose of the first coming is to “receive you unto myself.” The purpose of the second coming is “to execute judgement on all.”
 
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This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

I disagree.. The warning of Amos i believe is directed at those who would seek to bring about the day of the Lord through forcing it to come early.. There are people out there who think if they cause a prophecy to be fulfilled by manipulating events to force a prophecy to happen that they can accelerate the return of Jesus.. There is a movement called Dominion-ism that seeks to take over the world and establish a world wide Christian government so as to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.. They are seeking the Day of the Lord.. Then there are those who desire the day of the Lord so that all the people that they hate like atheists and muslims and pagans suffer the wrath of God.. These people also long for the day of the LORD.. But all these people shall not benefit from the coming of the day of the LORD because all these people have taken part in evil to accelerate the day of the Lord or wish evil upon people on the day of the LORD.. No one should desire the terrible events of the Day of the LORD.. People should wish and work for the salvation of as many people as possible.. People should leave all the fulfillment s of the prophecies leading up to the day of the LORD to God.. They can do this and also look forward to the return of Jesus.. Not in expectation of others receiving wrath but in the expectation of their deliverance and the end of the evil way of the world.. They are looking forward to the End of evil.. Not in the wrath of the LORD on unbelievers.. No one should desire the wrath of the LORD on anyone.. So the people who desire the day of the Lord like the people i have mentioned about ( for unChristian desires ) will also get caught up in the wrath that will come because they are false Christians and not right with the LORD..

The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”

One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

The scriptures are talking about two different sets of people.. As in the days of the great flood.. A small group of people where protected from the wrath of the LORD in the Arch.. Noah and His family, But others where unable to stand they drowned.. And the same shall happen on the Day of the LORD.. Those who oppose God and have rejected the Atonement of Jesus shall not be able to stand.. But those who have loved the LORD shall be protected.. Read the following verses and you will see saved people being protected during the time of wrath::


Psalms 91: KJV

1 "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. {2} I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."


Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

Yet in Matthew 24 if you read all the verses before verse 33 and see all the events described and then read 33 it will show you what Christians will witness on earth.. They will not be raptured away from this world before then..

(Matthew 24: KJV
{33} So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

So we shall see all the things revealed like the great tribulation.. the day darkened and all that is mentioned before verse 33 in Matthew 24..

“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.

Are the days Symbolic of Years? Or are the Days 24 hours days? have people interpreted those scriptures correct? Do we know? No..

The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

Both are true.. Jesus comes with His angels in the clouds on the day of the LORD and sends down his Angels to gather the elect and they are raptured and meet him in the clouds.. And then they come down to earth to rule the earth with Jesus for 1000 years.. So both are talking about the same day..

The scriptures plainly teach us that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about the future plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event

Nope.. I have never seen a verse stating that we will be caught up by the Lord himself... I have looked it up .. No verse says that Jesus will catch us up by Himself...

Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

This verse does not state that Jesus will catch us up by Himself...

But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

Both events can happen on the same day.. He comes in the clouds, we are caught up to meet Him and then he comes down and His feet stand on the mount of olives... No worries..

Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

The moment. The twinkling of an eye is not talking about the time it takes for people to see Jesus in the clouds.. It is talking about the time it takes for the Angels to Rapture / catch up the Saints....
 
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All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”[/QUOTE]

We should not be basing the rapture timing interpretation on a parable.. I have seen this parable brought up many times before in rapture timing discussions and it should not be used..


(continued from previous post)
But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

I believe the Parable of the tares and the wheat is not talking about the Day of the LORD.. It is talking about what happens at the end of the 1000 years.. When the final judgement happens.. Read Revelation chapter 20.. At the end you will see that 1000 years after the return of Jesus satan will be released to deceive people and will gather them to attack Jerusalem.. The God will bring down fire from heaven and consume these rebellions people and after that the final judgement will happen.. See How God first gathers the tares ( rebellious people ) and after that the Elect.. So you are right these scriptures are talking about two different events that happen 1000 years apart..

(continued from previous post)
This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent.

I agree.. But it has nothing to do with rapture timing.. And it says those who Rejected the Love of the truth.. It is not talking about those who never knew the love of the truth ( The Gospel )

This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come.

The virgins without oil are false Christians.. Before the return of God they where religious without having the Light Holy Spirit.. That's why they where rejected.. There are many denominations today who say they are Christians but have rejected the Love of the truth ( the Gospel ) They are works salvation churches .. Note the following scripture and see how these people also call out Lord, Lord and see what argument they put forward to The LORD seeking to justify themselves..

Matthew 7: KJV

22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

They try to justify themselves by there many wonderful WORKS They belonged to work salvation churches and did not believe 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ for their salvation.. But believed that through Works they obtained eternal life..

But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

It will be too late for those who have rejected the Love of the truth.. It does not say everyone on earth..

Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”.In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, we read of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He comes “with all His saints. If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them.”

Jesus comes in the clouds on the day of the LORD.. His angels gather His elect.. They come to Him and from that time on they shall always be with the lord ... On the same day He comes down to earth with the saints to rule the earth .. See how it does not have to happen on different days? .. Also the place where Jesus went to prepare a place for us is called the New Jerusalem.. It is also Revealed in the Book of Revelation.. But note it comes out of heaven at the end of the 1000 years and down to us.. Why down? Because we shall be on earth with Jesus.. A New Earth..

Revelation 21:KJV
1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Our eternal Home is the New Jerusalem and it will not be in heaven..

Revelation 21:KJV

23"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. {24} And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. {25} And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."

So there you have it.. That was a lot of work replying to your post.. Thanks for your thoughts..
 
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BABerean2

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But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts.

During 167 BC Anitochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the Jewish temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar. He attacked the city of Jerusalem and killed thousands of Jews. He also commanded that the sacrifices be stopped in the Jewish temple. This occurred for 3 years and 6 months, according to the Jewish Historian Josephus. Daniel had predicted these events long before they occurred.

The verse below reveals that the Jews of Jesus time understood this Abomination of Desolation spoken by the prophet Daniel, because they celebrated Hanukkah each year.

Joh 10:22  And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 


As with the time of "Jacob's Trouble", referred to by Jeremiah when Israel was going into captivity in Babylon, it would be less confusing if we would allow some passages to lie within their historical context instead of projecting them into the future.


Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
 

Luk 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

Luk 21:21  Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 


We know that Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 are referring to the same event, because the same warning to flee is found in the following verse.


The Jews of Jesus time saw the predictions by Daniel to be proof that God's Word is the truth, since Daniel had predicted the events before they occurred.

Since the Jews of Jesus day understood the events of 167 BC, Jesus was telling them that something similar to what happened in 167 BC would happen again during 70 AD.



From the writings of Josephus... Wars of the Jews

"Book 1, Chapter 1
CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVEN YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES, TO THE DEATH OF HEROD THE GREAT.
HOW THE CITY JERUSALEM WAS TAKEN, AND THE TEMPLE PILLAGED [BY ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES]. AS ALSO CONCERNING THE ACTIONS OF THE MACCABEES, MATTHIAS AND JUDAS; AND CONCERNING THE DEATH OF JUDAS.
1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. "

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The history of the pretrib doctrine speaks for itself.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/


Anyone who understands the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, can see the serious errors in John Nelson Darby's Two Peoples of God doctrine.


The New Covenant: Bob George
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj7NQffg_NE

.

In 1654, 146 years before John Nelson Darby was born, and even 77 years before Manuel Lacunza was born, Captain John Browne wrote concerning Revelation 14:1-5, that “the hundred fourty and four thousand, who are called Virgins, cannot be said to be the Virgins that attend the Spouse, the Lamb’s Wife, seeing that they are upon the Earth after the said Spouse is taken up.” (John Browne, “A Brief Survey of the Prophetical and Evangelical Events of the Last Times,” London, 1654, pg. 7)

Five pages later, he said, “Now this Gospel of the Kingdom must be preached in all Nations before that time come…then will follow the calling of the two Tribes of Judah and Benjamin to Jerusalem…and then the City is built, which bringing back of the ten Tribes will not be completed till after the Saints are taken up, when as before that time both Jerusalem and the Temple will be built, and Sacrifice offered… After the calling of the two Tribes for to build and inhabite Jerusalem, the next remarkable thing that will in those days fall out to be, is the rising or manifesting of the Beast, and ten Hornes, or Kings…” (John Browne, “A Brief Survey of the Prophetical and Evangelical Events of the Last Times,” London, 1654, pp. 12-13)

Further on in that same book, he wrote:

“What the ten Horns and Beast will doe before and after the taking up of the Saints. First, before the taking up of the Saints, the ten Horns will arise, and hate the harlot, and make her desolate …and destroy her, before they give up their power unto the Beast. Secondly, As to what the Beast will doe. First, before the Saints are taken up, …he shall make warre with the King of the South (the Ægyptian Prince)…but afterwards they shall be reconciled seemingly, for they shall talk of deceit (or speak lies) at one Table, and both set their hearts to doe mischief…his heart shall be against the Covenant (or people of the Jewes, with whom he had before made a League) …his evil thoughts will then begin to work against them, according to Ezekiel’s Prophecie in his 38. Chapter 10,11,13. For this Gog…will evidently appear to be this vile Person or John’s Beast, if we compare Ezek.38…with the 19. Revel.17,18.) At the time appointed he shall return …causing them (viz. the Jewes) to be besieged, as he passeth through their Country… So that know will begin to be fulfilled another part of Daniel’s Prophesie, who saith in his 8. Chapter 13,14. That the time that the dayly Sacrifice shall be taken away, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the Sanctuary and the Host, to be trodden under the feet, shall be two thousand three hundred days…before the end of the vile Persons raign be. …during the time of that terror will the Church of the Iews (viz. the one hundred and fourty four thousand) fly out of Ierusalem into the wildernesse.” (John Browne, “A Brief Survey of the Prophetical and Evangelical Events of the Last Times,” London, 1654, pp. 43-44)

There is no rational way to even try to deny that this is a very clear teaching of a pre tribulation rapture. And it is important to note that this writer had a new a d different group, which he called "the church of the Jews," on earth AFTER "the saints are taken up."
 
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The book by Captain John Browne was only one of many of that type published in the mid to late 1600s. Te King James translation of the Bible had been published in 1611, making the scriptures available at a price many could afford. And then, 31 years later, civil war broke out in England. As this war had religious undertones, many saw it, as many see the political cnfrontation in the USA today, as a war between the righteous and the wicked. This caused many to think the end of the world was near, and generated intense interest in Bible prophecy. The result was a flurry of publishing about prophetic subjects, and many of these publications clearly taught that the church would be removed from the earth before the end came. These many writers sometimes took a view that could be equated to the modern pre-wrath view, and many others took a view that would today be called a mid-trib view. But there were those among that that clearly taught a period of at least seven years between the rapture and the end.

In 1690, Bishop William Lloyd, published a tract titled “An Exposition of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, which God sent to Daniel by the Angel Gabriel,” in which he had postulated that that the 70th week was separated from the previous 69, which went from the command by Ataxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until when the Messiah would be “cut off.” This concept, which is closely tied to the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation, had been implied by others, such as John Browne, whom, as we noticed above, spoke of the sacrifice being brought to an end “in the midst of the week.” But it does not appear to have been explicitly taught earlier in the seventeenth century, although it had been taught in ancent times by writers such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus. This concept had been attacked in 1726 by Peter Lancaster, in a paper titled “Some Remarks on the late Bishop Lloyd’s Hypothesis on Daniel’s Prophecy of the 70 Weeks.” But, as Bishop Lloyd had died, Benjamin Marshall defended it in 1728 by saying:

“Those sixty nine Septenaries of Years ended in the Year of Christ 32… Consequently a Propheitik Week, or one other Septenary of Years is still remaining, and without any Succession of Time for it in the Prophecy. However this remaining week of the Seeventy… We are not at a loss for it. Look for it in the remaining Single Week of the Prophecy distinctly spoken afterwards… When the Angel had done with those two Periods of this Prophecy, He afterwards tells the Prophet expressly of another of One Week only, distinguishing that more immediately in the Half Part thereof.” (Benjamin Marshall, Three Letters in Vindication of the late Bishop Lloyd’s Hypothesis of Daniel’s Prophecy, London,1728, pp. 44-45)

He said the Angel “detach’d the Week from the other sixty nine Weeks…he separated it from having any Succession of Time with them.”(Benjamin Marshall, Three Letters in Vindication of the late Bishop Lloyd’s Hypothesis of Daniel’s Prophecy, London,1728, pg. 48)

MAny of these seventeenth (and eighteenth) century writers called the Lord's taking up of His own the "rapture," numerous others spoke of it as the saints being "rapt," and a significant number of them explicitly spoke of hose "left behind" when this happened.

Reading the entirety of these seventeenth century works requires access to “Early English Books Online” (EEBO.com ) which has informed me that they “don’t have a model that permits individual researchers.” But the extracts given here can be easily checked, for they are taken from “Dispensationalism Before Darby,” By William C. Watson, which is published by Lampion Press, Silverton, OR, 2015, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6. The portions of this book that deal with the timing of the rapture are also available online at: Pre-Trib Research Center -
 
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BABerean2

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Reading the entirety of these seventeenth century works requires access to “Early English Books Online” (EEBO.com ) which has informed me that they “don’t have a model that permits individual researchers.” But the extracts given here can be easily checked, for they are taken from “Dispensationalism Before Darby,” By William C. Watson, which is published by Lampion Press, Silverton, OR, 2015, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6. The portions of this book that deal with the timing of the rapture are also available online at: Pre-Trib Research Center -

The source above from the "Pre-Trib Research Center" would most certainly have no bias in the matter, just as the works by Grant Jeffrey would never attempt to give an incomplete picture of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


How about the following quote by author Tim LaHaye?
Do they offer this quote at the "Pre-Trib Research Center"?


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.
 
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The source above from the "Pre-Trib Research Center" would most certainly have no bias in the matter, just as the works by Grant Jeffrey would never attempt to give an incomplete picture of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


How about the following quote by author Tim LaHaye?
Do they offer this quote at the "Pre-Trib Research Center"?


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.
Tim LaHaye was mistaken in this conclusion. And although the material I posted is also posted at the pre-trib research center, that was not my source.
 
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The book by Captain John Browne was only one of many of that type published in the mid to late 1600s. Te King James translation of the Bible had been published in 1611, making the scriptures available at a price many could afford. And then, 31 years later, civil war broke out in England. As this war had religious undertones, many saw it, as many see the political cnfrontation in the USA today, as a war between the righteous and the wicked. This caused many to think the end of the world was near, and generated intense interest in Bible prophecy. The result was a flurry of publishing about prophetic subjects, and many of these publications clearly taught that the church would be removed from the earth before the end came. These many writers sometimes took a view that could be equated to the modern pre-wrath view, and many others took a view that would today be called a mid-trib view. But there were those among that that clearly taught a period of at least seven years between the rapture and the end.

In 1690, Bishop William Lloyd, published a tract titled “An Exposition of the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks, which God sent to Daniel by the Angel Gabriel,” in which he had postulated that that the 70th week was separated from the previous 69, which went from the command by Ataxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until when the Messiah would be “cut off.” This concept, which is closely tied to the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation, had been implied by others, such as John Browne, whom, as we noticed above, spoke of the sacrifice being brought to an end “in the midst of the week.” But it does not appear to have been explicitly taught earlier in the seventeenth century, although it had been taught in ancent times by writers such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus. This concept had been attacked in 1726 by Peter Lancaster, in a paper titled “Some Remarks on the late Bishop Lloyd’s Hypothesis on Daniel’s Prophecy of the 70 Weeks.” But, as Bishop Lloyd had died, Benjamin Marshall defended it in 1728 by saying:

“Those sixty nine Septenaries of Years ended in the Year of Christ 32… Consequently a Propheitik Week, or one other Septenary of Years is still remaining, and without any Succession of Time for it in the Prophecy. However this remaining week of the Seeventy… We are not at a loss for it. Look for it in the remaining Single Week of the Prophecy distinctly spoken afterwards… When the Angel had done with those two Periods of this Prophecy, He afterwards tells the Prophet expressly of another of One Week only, distinguishing that more immediately in the Half Part thereof.” (Benjamin Marshall, Three Letters in Vindication of the late Bishop Lloyd’s Hypothesis of Daniel’s Prophecy, London,1728, pp. 44-45)

He said the Angel “detach’d the Week from the other sixty nine Weeks…he separated it from having any Succession of Time with them.”(Benjamin Marshall, Three Letters in Vindication of the late Bishop Lloyd’s Hypothesis of Daniel’s Prophecy, London,1728, pg. 48)

MAny of these seventeenth (and eighteenth) century writers called the Lord's taking up of His own the "rapture," numerous others spoke of it as the saints being "rapt," and a significant number of them explicitly spoke of hose "left behind" when this happened.

Reading the entirety of these seventeenth century works requires access to “Early English Books Online” (EEBO.com ) which has informed me that they “don’t have a model that permits individual researchers.” But the extracts given here can be easily checked, for they are taken from “Dispensationalism Before Darby,” By William C. Watson, which is published by Lampion Press, Silverton, OR, 2015, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6. The portions of this book that deal with the timing of the rapture are also available online at: Pre-Trib Research Center -

As is required of any serious author, each of the publications of each of these authors would need to be reviewed for theological orthodoxy and rectitude. Their credentials and recognition within their Christian communities would need to be established. Their acknowledgement and affirmation by acclaimed Christian contemporaries of their times would need to be confirmed.

Are there any independent reviews of these authors' works by other recognized authors of their time?

Anyone can write anything about anything anytime. Impartial critical review by established authorities is indispensable to establishing legitimacy.
 
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As is required of any serious author, each of the publications of each of these authors would need to be reviewed for theological orthodoxy and rectitude. Their credentials and recognition within their Christian communities would need to be established. Their acknowledgement and affirmation by acclaimed Christian contemporaries of their times would need to be confirmed.

Are there any independent reviews of these authors' works by other recognized authors of their time?

Anyone can write anything about anything anytime. Impartial critical review by established authorities is indispensable to establishing legitimacy.

The question at hand was not whether or not the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation had accepted before the time of Darby, but whether or not it had been taught. But if what you require is something from someone a widely respected teacher, you could hardly find a man more respected than Morgan Edwards, the Baptist theologian who founded the now famous Brown University.

About the year 1743, that is, when Manuel Lacunza, who is sometimes alleged to be the ultimate source of these ideas, was only 12 years old, Morgan Edwards wrote very clearly and repeatedly on a rapture long before the Lord comes to set up the millennium. Some have disparaged this as merely the suppositions of a theological student, but he published it in 1788 (with updates, for on page 14 he referred to 1787 as “the last year.”) So he still believed this as an older and famous Christian leader. For this was 24 years after he had founded Brown University.

Edwards wrote:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.
“I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..." (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 7, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“Preclusive to the millennium, and preparatory for it, are the following events.

“1.The present usurpers of the country given to Abraham and his seed will be dispossessed,
viz. The Turkish or Ottoman Empire will be demolished; for otherwise the right owners cannot
posses their inheritance. The said demolition' of the Turk (or beast that started out of the earth) is
exhibited at the opening of the first seal, when .a horseman with his bow issues forth conquering
an to conquer, (Rev. vi. 2): his exploits are specified at the sounding of the first trumpet (ch.
Viii.7), and at the pouring of the first vial (ch. XVi, 2). The fifteenth chapter of Esdras is a
prophecy of these events wherein Asia is particularly. Mentioned, (ver. 46.)

“2. The twelve tribes (is observed before) will return to their ancient inheritance, else how
can the twelve apostles be their judges? Men have thought that the ten tribes are lost, viz. have
dwindled away, so as to cease to be a people, like many other nations; but Christ faith that the
Jewish nation shall not pass away till he come in his glory. (Matt. xiv. 34.) The other two tribes
are in being yet, and are seen in most parts of the world a distinct people. But all Israel must be
saved, according to Paul (Rum. i, 25. 26); therefore the ten tribes are in-being, and a distinct
people:” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pp. 13-14, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“5. Another event previous to the Millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in
the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to
himself, and then withdrawing with them, and observed before, This event will come to pass
when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a
half before his killing the witnesses, and assumption of godhead. The signs of Christ’s appearing
in the clouds, will be extraordinary ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,’ &c.
(Matth. Xxiv. 6, -8.)” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 21, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“6. Another event previous to the Millennium will be, the destroying of that Antichrist or
false god. And this will come to pass about a month before said millennium: I say about a month
before; for there is another number in Daniel which supposes as much, ‘From the time that the
daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination which maketh desolation is felt up is 1260
days.’ (Chap. Xii. 11.): but he will maintain his godhead only for time, times, and half a time
(chap. Xii. 7.); that is, for a year, two yours and half a year or 1260 days, as observed before: the
difference between these numbers is 30 days, or one month: time little enough to demolish his
god ship, bury his army and cleanse the temple, &c. The manner of his destruction is thus
described by Daniel, (chap. Vii. 25) “He shall be broken without “hand:” and well did he
foresee; ‘for he will be consumed with the spirit of Christ’s mouth, and not with hands (2 Thess.
Ii. *.).” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 23, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“8.The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before to justify, against the accuser of the brethren; and to fettler their future business and rewards, ‘the time is come that “thou should give rewards to thy servant the Prophets, and the saints, &c. (Rev. xi. 18) as it is written, ‘be thou ruler over all I have thou authority over ten cities thou over five be thou ruler over all my goods thou over all my household be thou judge of such a tribe of Israel thou king of such a kingdom thou priest of such a parish, &c. &c. (Luke xii, 42. Xix, 7. 8. Matt. Xxiv, 47,48)” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pp. 24-25, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“Coincident with the Millennium will be the following events.
“1.Reducing to the obedience of Christ all the kingdoms and states that will be refuse
submission to him, or to the viceroys that he shall appoint over them. Resistance will be made,
not with standing the wonders in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, which happened
but three years and a half before; and not with standing the recent and awful destruction of
antichrist, and the descent of Christ and his saints, from heaven to earth, which will be fresh in
all memories.” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 26, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“3. Another affair that will be set up in the beginning of the millennium, and will continue with it
is, an annual feast to be celebrated in an about Jerusalem. Of this feast Zechariah speaks largely
under the name of the feast of tabernacles: but that he means not the Jewish feast of tabernacles
is evident; for that was to be observed only by Israelites born. (Lev. Xxxiii. 42 ) this is
commemoration of tabernacles used in the wilderness; this, to worship the king: the penalty of
neglecting that is not mentioned; the penalty of neglecting this is very extraordinary, “countries
used to rain shall have none, if they come not up to the feast year by year, and countries that have
no rain shall have the plague (ch.xiv.17, 18). Besides; the prophet throughout the chapter is
speaking of things that have not yet had existence. Nothing plainer therefore than that he does
not mean any Mosaic feast, but a millennium feast; he calls this last a feast of tabernacles for an
obvious reason. Viz. Because it must be celebrated in tabernacles, or tents, or booths; for it will
be impossible to find houses for all that will then resort to Jerusalem to feast; and worship the
king. This annual resort accounts for the long and particular descriptions which the prophets give
of the fine and safe roads to Zion, thro’ deserts, and across rivers and mountains. (Isaiah xi.
Xxxv. Zech. Viii. Rev. xiv.)” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 29, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

And one final interesting note further down in the book shows that there had been much written abut prophecy in the years before the time he wrote:

“I wonder that so many great men have taken upon them to fix the time when the millennium
and its preceding events are to take place, by an arbitrary use of Daniel and john numbers: I say
arbitrary; denominate years, and then rummage the histories of Rome pagan and Rome papal for
points to begin at; and yet their gross mistakes, discovered by time, give no warning! I have
taken the arithmetic of those two divine chronometers under the denominations which they
themselves give their figures (but with what success time will show); and am content with the
old, and hitherto, unconsumed hypothesis, viz. ‘that this world is to last seven thousand years,
and that at the end of the sixth thousand the millennium will begin.’ This hypothesis is grounded
partly, on a prophecy of Elias, which the Jews have among them; where they got it we cannot
tell, any more than we can tell where Jude found the prophecy of Enoch: and partly on Moses
septenaries, such as the seventh day, and the seventh year, &c. which day was a day of rest to
man and beast, and which year was a year of rest to the land; and if one day be a thousand years
with the Lord, (2 Pet. Iii, 8), it follows, that the six days of the week are six thousand years, and
that the seventh is a thousand years of rest: Paul confirms this signification of the seventh day by
making it typical of the sabbatism which remains for the people of God. (Heb.iv. 4-9).” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 33, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

The entirety of this book is available from Amazon.com and can be read online at many sites, including http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Edwards-TwoAcademicalExercis.pdf
 
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The question at hand was not whether or not the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation had accepted before the time of Darby, but whether or not it had been taught. But if what you require is something from someone a widely respected teacher, you could hardly find a man more respected than Morgan Edwards, the Baptist theologian who founded the now famous Brown University.

About the year 1743, that is, when Manuel Lacunza, who is sometimes alleged to be the ultimate source of these ideas, was only 12 years old, Morgan Edwards wrote very clearly and repeatedly on a rapture long before the Lord comes to set up the millennium. Some have disparaged this as merely the suppositions of a theological student, but he published it in 1788 (with updates, for on page 14 he referred to 1787 as “the last year.”) So he still believed this as an older and famous Christian leader. For this was 24 years after he had founded Brown University.

Edwards wrote:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.
“I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..." (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 7, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“Preclusive to the millennium, and preparatory for it, are the following events.

“1.The present usurpers of the country given to Abraham and his seed will be dispossessed,
viz. The Turkish or Ottoman Empire will be demolished; for otherwise the right owners cannot
posses their inheritance. The said demolition' of the Turk (or beast that started out of the earth) is
exhibited at the opening of the first seal, when .a horseman with his bow issues forth conquering
an to conquer, (Rev. vi. 2): his exploits are specified at the sounding of the first trumpet (ch.
Viii.7), and at the pouring of the first vial (ch. XVi, 2). The fifteenth chapter of Esdras is a
prophecy of these events wherein Asia is particularly. Mentioned, (ver. 46.)

“2. The twelve tribes (is observed before) will return to their ancient inheritance, else how
can the twelve apostles be their judges? Men have thought that the ten tribes are lost, viz. have
dwindled away, so as to cease to be a people, like many other nations; but Christ faith that the
Jewish nation shall not pass away till he come in his glory. (Matt. xiv. 34.) The other two tribes
are in being yet, and are seen in most parts of the world a distinct people. But all Israel must be
saved, according to Paul (Rum. i, 25. 26); therefore the ten tribes are in-being, and a distinct
people:” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pp. 13-14, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“5. Another event previous to the Millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in
the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living, and to catch them up to
himself, and then withdrawing with them, and observed before, This event will come to pass
when Antichrist be arrived at Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a
half before his killing the witnesses, and assumption of godhead. The signs of Christ’s appearing
in the clouds, will be extraordinary ‘wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes and famines,’ &c.
(Matth. Xxiv. 6, -8.)” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 21, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“6. Another event previous to the Millennium will be, the destroying of that Antichrist or
false god. And this will come to pass about a month before said millennium: I say about a month
before; for there is another number in Daniel which supposes as much, ‘From the time that the
daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination which maketh desolation is felt up is 1260
days.’ (Chap. Xii. 11.): but he will maintain his godhead only for time, times, and half a time
(chap. Xii. 7.); that is, for a year, two yours and half a year or 1260 days, as observed before: the
difference between these numbers is 30 days, or one month: time little enough to demolish his
god ship, bury his army and cleanse the temple, &c. The manner of his destruction is thus
described by Daniel, (chap. Vii. 25) “He shall be broken without “hand:” and well did he
foresee; ‘for he will be consumed with the spirit of Christ’s mouth, and not with hands (2 Thess.
Ii. *.).” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 23, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“8.The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be, the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken up thither (about three years and a half before to justify, against the accuser of the brethren; and to fettler their future business and rewards, ‘the time is come that “thou should give rewards to thy servant the Prophets, and the saints, &c. (Rev. xi. 18) as it is written, ‘be thou ruler over all I have thou authority over ten cities thou over five be thou ruler over all my goods thou over all my household be thou judge of such a tribe of Israel thou king of such a kingdom thou priest of such a parish, &c. &c. (Luke xii, 42. Xix, 7. 8. Matt. Xxiv, 47,48)” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pp. 24-25, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“Coincident with the Millennium will be the following events.
“1.Reducing to the obedience of Christ all the kingdoms and states that will be refuse
submission to him, or to the viceroys that he shall appoint over them. Resistance will be made,
not with standing the wonders in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, which happened
but three years and a half before; and not with standing the recent and awful destruction of
antichrist, and the descent of Christ and his saints, from heaven to earth, which will be fresh in
all memories.” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 26, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

“3. Another affair that will be set up in the beginning of the millennium, and will continue with it
is, an annual feast to be celebrated in an about Jerusalem. Of this feast Zechariah speaks largely
under the name of the feast of tabernacles: but that he means not the Jewish feast of tabernacles
is evident; for that was to be observed only by Israelites born. (Lev. Xxxiii. 42 ) this is
commemoration of tabernacles used in the wilderness; this, to worship the king: the penalty of
neglecting that is not mentioned; the penalty of neglecting this is very extraordinary, “countries
used to rain shall have none, if they come not up to the feast year by year, and countries that have
no rain shall have the plague (ch.xiv.17, 18). Besides; the prophet throughout the chapter is
speaking of things that have not yet had existence. Nothing plainer therefore than that he does
not mean any Mosaic feast, but a millennium feast; he calls this last a feast of tabernacles for an
obvious reason. Viz. Because it must be celebrated in tabernacles, or tents, or booths; for it will
be impossible to find houses for all that will then resort to Jerusalem to feast; and worship the
king. This annual resort accounts for the long and particular descriptions which the prophets give
of the fine and safe roads to Zion, thro’ deserts, and across rivers and mountains. (Isaiah xi.
Xxxv. Zech. Viii. Rev. xiv.)” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 29, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

And one final interesting note further down in the book shows that there had been much written abut prophecy in the years before the time he wrote:

“I wonder that so many great men have taken upon them to fix the time when the millennium
and its preceding events are to take place, by an arbitrary use of Daniel and john numbers: I say
arbitrary; denominate years, and then rummage the histories of Rome pagan and Rome papal for
points to begin at; and yet their gross mistakes, discovered by time, give no warning! I have
taken the arithmetic of those two divine chronometers under the denominations which they
themselves give their figures (but with what success time will show); and am content with the
old, and hitherto, unconsumed hypothesis, viz. ‘that this world is to last seven thousand years,
and that at the end of the sixth thousand the millennium will begin.’ This hypothesis is grounded
partly, on a prophecy of Elias, which the Jews have among them; where they got it we cannot
tell, any more than we can tell where Jude found the prophecy of Enoch: and partly on Moses
septenaries, such as the seventh day, and the seventh year, &c. which day was a day of rest to
man and beast, and which year was a year of rest to the land; and if one day be a thousand years
with the Lord, (2 Pet. Iii, 8), it follows, that the six days of the week are six thousand years, and
that the seventh is a thousand years of rest: Paul confirms this signification of the seventh day by
making it typical of the sabbatism which remains for the people of God. (Heb.iv. 4-9).” (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 33, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

The entirety of this book is available from Amazon.com and can be read online at many sites, including http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Edwards-TwoAcademicalExercis.pdf

How did Morgan Edwards' views comport with those of other recognized Christian voices of his day? Was there any independent commentary regarding them?
 
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How did Morgan Edwards' views comport with those of other recognized Christian voices of his day? Was there any independent commentary regarding them?

You are simply trying to avoid the undeniable truth, that it has now been conclusively proved that the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation DID NOT originate with John Nelson Darby, or with Margaret MacDonald, or with Manuel Lacunza. It had been around a LONG time before any of them even could have proposed it.
 
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