The Eternality of Hell
- Thread starter Greg Merrill
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Annihilation isn't a punishment, it is the cessation of punishment--and the mercy it represents is well within the character of God. He cannot permit them to have eternal life--that is only for His children, whether they become His children early or late in this mortal life. But that doesn't mean that they are the children of Satan and deserve to suffer his eternal punishment. Yes, Jesus called some of those who were religious and lost, "sons of the devil"--but He did not call every sinner a son or daughter of Satan. He was actually quite merciful toward sinners--He caused the "adulterous woman" to be granted mercy. She was clearly a sinner, as He told her to, "Go and sin no more". The Law was quite clear on the subject of adultery--stoning was the required punishment. Some have pointed out that, since she was caught in the act of adultery, her partner should have been stoned as well. They speculate that as the reason why He argued against stoning her. I think it is rather Him exercising His prerogative as the final judge to grant mercy wherever He sees fit. ("I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15) He is the exact likeness of our Heavenly Father.
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Hitler can be held in everlasting contempt by people but that does not mean he is still alive. Also, if the worms did not die, it does not equate with it's host not dying. But their worm not dying is in reference to the time they are being punished temporarily in the Lake of Fire before they are destroyed (or erased from existence) for all time. How so? Because there are tons of Scripture telling us that the words that appear to say forever and it's synonyms as not being forever.
For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”
Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).
Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php
vinsight4u said:
Isaiah 34:10, Malachi 1, and Malachi 4:3 are talking about the purification of this world by fire (similar to the global flood) before the Millennium begins. This is not the final Judgment. There are other more broad and general verses that speak of the wicked and their destruction or annihialation.
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Annihilation in the Lake of Fire is combined with the wicked being punished for their crimes here upon this Earth in the Lake of Fire in proportion to the types of sins they committed. For God is into fair justice. Just read Luke 12:47-48.
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The only disagreement which I would have with your theology is that our English Bibles translate both the Greek "Hades" and the Aramaic "Gehenna" (the Lake of Fire) as "hell". I do not believe they are the same place. I believe that Hades is a temporary "place of torment" for the wicked. But even Hades is thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgment.
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My Messianic Jewish friends tell me that, in the Hebrew, "forever" simply means a very long time--such as a thousand years or more. (My little granddaughter has said in November that, "Christmas is taking FOREVER to come.") "Forever and ever" would be an even longer time--perhaps stretching out into eternity. Interestingly, scholars who study ancient Judaism say that they had no concept of time ever stopping--a Greek concept of eternity. That seems to be confirmed in Revelation 22:2 because it speaks of "every month" in the Eternal State. It would seem that God created time as part of His order. In eternity, we will not be bound by the dreadful border of time, but that does not mean that time will cease.
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Punishment would only be for correction anyway. Burning people for an eternity would make God a sadistic monster. Thus all sounds like ISIS way of thinking.!
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Not at all. I agree that the English word "hell" can refer to either "hades" or "Gehenna", i.e. the Lake of Fire. The context and or cross references (in the English) would confirm this truth, as well.
Scripture talks about hell being like an island and it talks about how God's anger burns into the lowest hell. Obviously God is not going to be angry at the wicked for all time.
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aiki
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Contrary to what you have said about the Rich Man, he does, at first, ask for Lazarus to be sent with water to ease the Rich Man's suffering (Luke 16:24). In acknowledging "Father Abraham" the Rich Man gives some evidence of the "fear of the Lord" which is the beginning of wisdom.
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I think this is stretching a bit.
Why?
Most obviously because you're talking about a man who is in the torment of Hades. If he had some measure of the fear of the Lord, he possessed far too little of it. It seems to me, though, that his presence in the fires of Hades demonstrates quite the opposite of what you imagine to be true of him. The Rich Man's use of "Father Abraham" could be nothing more than a way of declaring his own Jewish nationality. This seems far more likely to me than attributing godly wisdom to him, one of the unrepentant wicked in Hell.
Selah.
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I think this is stretching a bit.
Why?
Most obviously because you're talking about a man who is in the torment of Hades. If he had some measure of the fear of the Lord, he possessed far too little of it. It seems to me, though, that his presence in the fires of Hades demonstrates quite the opposite of what you imagine to be true of him. The Rich Man's use of "Father Abraham" could be nothing more than a way of declaring his own Jewish nationality. This seems far more likely to me than attributing godly wisdom to him, one of the unrepentant wicked in Hell.
Selah.
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aiki
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Discipline has a corrective purpose which is what God enacts upon His children. Punishment has no such remedial end, necessarily, and is what God enacts upon the unrepentant wicked.
Casting people into the torment of Hell for eternity does not make God a monster; it demonstrates that we wicked sinners are monsters. Nothing short of such a terrible punishment properly addresses the depth of our wickedness. How evil we are!
There is nothing of ISIS in God's conduct, only pure, perfect and holy justice.
Selah.
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The rich man was not screaming so bad that he could not carry on a normal conversation. The pain would have to be pretty mild for the scenario of the rich man and Abraham to take place. So even if the rich man was in the actual flames and not nearby them, he was not experiencing hell like many depict it today with men screaming in pain and their flesh sizzling, etc. However, while it is possible he was in the actual flames, more than likely the richman was discomforted by the heat of the flames either nearby him or in the great gulf between him and Abraham.
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Jesus talks about it is better to lose one's eye than to be cast bodily into hellfire. This is in reference to the Lake of Fire after the final Judgment. In light of this, it is highly probable that many will be punished according to their sins in the Lake of Fire (for a temporal amount of time) before they are eventually destroyed or erased from existence.
However, make no mistake about it, the wicked will be destroyed. For Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So if death is destoyed, then this means there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, too.
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However, make no mistake about it, the wicked will be destroyed. For Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So if death is destoyed, then this means there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, too.
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I agree that the Rich Man is in the torment of Hades--Jesus says it and the man confirms it. I would also agree that there are many who realize too late that they should have feared God more and desired their own pleasure less during their mortal lives. They also make the mistake of thinking that they do not need God in every measure of their being. We were not created to be independent of Him--that is the deception of Satan--that we can be our own god. That is why Jesus showed up the lesson of the Vine--what value does a leaf have apart from the Vine? I really didn't say that the Rich Man had "godly wisdom" but had likely learned some measure of the "fear of the Lord" considering where he was and who had put him there. Even the rebellious souls in Revelation 6 have some measure of the "fear of the Lord" in their fear of His wrath--but not enough to repent. Repentance is a gift. It is astounding that the rebellious children of Satan, seen in Revelation, know who is causing their trouble and that they still refuse to repent. The "thief on the cross" who was crucified with Jesus scolds the other criminal, who is on the third cross, for taunting Jesus, "Don't you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die?" (Luke 23:40)
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aiki
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But the mercy God has extended to us all is in the atoning work of His Son. When we spurn that, we are left only with God's eternal, just wrath.
John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Scripture does not say that the wicked will be annihilated in escape of their everlasting punishment. It would not, then, be everlasting, as I explained in an earlier post.
The Second Death in Hell is hardly life; not in the sense in which life is possessed by those in God's eternal, joyful kingdom. The Second Death is an eternal living death, an unending existence in which there is the total loss, not of being, but of well-being.
God shows us all, saved and unsaved, mercy every moment we are alive. We all of us as sinners deserve the torment of Hell but we don't get what we deserve. Instead, God shows us mercy and grace and lets us go on living, perhaps to find salvation - or not. But when we die, that extension of divine mercy ends and the judgment of God begins.
Hebrews 9:27
27...it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Romans 2:5-11
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
Selah.
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Verse 6 in Romans 2 says that God will render to every man according to His deeds. God is not rendering to man according to His deeds if He is punishing them for all time for sinning against His eternal holiness. If God is to TRULY punish them according to their deeds, then He will punish them fairly according to their deeds and He will not punish them waaay beyond what what the crime of the punishment of what their deeds call for. In other words, ECT is not in line with what Romans 2:6 says (Among many other verses).
In fact, we see fair justice described to us in Luke 12:47-48. If God was not into fair justice, and He decided to do something contrary to what we know fair justice to be like, then such a passage (among many) would not exist in Scripture. For what good would it do to punish more or less people if they are going to just both fry together for all time? It doesn't make any sense. In ECT, the wicked will all have the equal punishment of being roasted alive for all eternity. Such a concept is not only not Scriptural, it is downright immoral and wrong.
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In fact, we see fair justice described to us in Luke 12:47-48. If God was not into fair justice, and He decided to do something contrary to what we know fair justice to be like, then such a passage (among many) would not exist in Scripture. For what good would it do to punish more or less people if they are going to just both fry together for all time? It doesn't make any sense. In ECT, the wicked will all have the equal punishment of being roasted alive for all eternity. Such a concept is not only not Scriptural, it is downright immoral and wrong.
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It makes sence to you because Hell is a human fabrication. It's a derivative to evolutionary religions. Eternal torture at the hand if an eternal deity would make that deity evil. The being you are referring to is more like the devil.
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Yes, those are all the reasons why the condemned are condemned. Let me ask you a question. Do you think that the "sheep and goat" judgment (the Final Judgment) is a "kangaroo court"--that if you wind up there, you will not receive mercy? Because that is in contradiction to what Jesus said about the Final Judgment. (see Matthew 25:31)
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No, hell is very real. Jesus would not have told us it is real, if it were not--just as He said that heaven is real--that He would have told us if it were not so. I do not believe in eternal torture for the main bulk of sinners, and many other Christians do not. Scripture reveals the truth. The more you read and meditate on Scripture, the more you will love God the Father and God the Son and devoutly desire to be indwelt by God's Holy Spirit.
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aiki
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Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I absolutely disagree with it. I think the Bible very clearly bears the marks of the divine upon it. And what it reveals to us of God and His will and our place in His purposes is far more than just "human fabrication."
Selah.
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