God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility

Jennifer Rothnie

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
514
311
40
Washington
✟45,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where did I say I perceived faith as a boastful work? Faith is the gift of God.

Room to boast comes in the choice, in my opinion. For if I choose Christ and the person who goes to hell did not, then I have ROOM to boast because I did something that the other could have, but did not. THAT's what I said.

Faith is the persuasion that something is true (albeit based on secondary evidence, not sight.) You don't 'choose' to believe something is true - you either find the evidence persuasive or you do not. I assume you did not come to Christ on some sort of 50/50 gamble where you didn’t have faith that Christ was who He said He was, but just wanted to hedge your bets on the off-chance that He was? Most people come to Christ because they find scripture, testimonies, or other evidences compelling enough to say ‘yes, I truly believe.’

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the proof of things not seen.” Heb 11:1

Faith isn’t the ‘choice’ of assurance or the ‘choice’ of proof or even the ‘choice’ of faith. The assurance is there, the hope is there. Faith is our response in complete trust in that proof and assurance.

‘Choice’ is not assurance, but is picking something by preference, selecting from a number of possibilities, to desire or be inclined, etc. We ‘choose Jesus’ through faith, in a manner of speaking – but if we view Jesus as merely one of many possibilities or just the possibility we like best, that isn’t faith. Faith is full trust and persuasion that He is the Messiah and the only way to be saved.

When you first learned about germs in school, before ever looking through the microscope, did you ‘choose’ to believe in their existence by some act of will, or did you simply accept/reject the authority of the teacher? Do you actively choose to believe that objects will fall from your perspective if you drop them, or do you accept that the laws of physics will control reactions?

The words ‘choose faith’ are not in scripture, nor is faith treated as a subjective ‘choice.’ We either respond to the gospel and revelation of Christ in belief, or we do not. We either trust the authority of God and His Word, or we do not. It’s not a subjective choice such as, ‘well I am not sure, but I am going to ‘pick’ what I believe like I pick a favorite flavor of ice cream.’

We do not 'choose' that Jesus is Lord - He is Lord regardless of our thoughts about it. We do not 'choose' He is the Messiah - He came to die on the cross for all men regardless of whether we believe that or not.

We give our agreement to the gospel when we respond in faith, consenting to receive the offered salvation. The term 'accepting Christ' summarizes our response in faith decently:
Why is 'accepting Christ' often mentioned in evangelism?

Accepting something, whereas someone else could but did not, isn’t a boast of any kind. If two people win a prize but one claims it and the other says ‘pass’ – does the one who claimed the prize have boasting rights over the other? You didn’t make the prize, didn’t offer the prize, didn’t choose the prize, had no inherent right to win the prize, etc. You took an offered prize while someone else freely rejected it – that wouldn’t make you somehow ‘better’ than them. You could erroneously decide to boast that you were somehow smarter or better than them because you claimed the prize and they did not - but scripture rejects that line of thought as human error and not a true boast one can make (Rom 11:17-21.)

This speculation that if every human could respond to the gospel in faith it would give those that did ‘room to boast’ over those who did is not supported in scripture.

“God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his
blood--to be received by faith.” Rom 3:25

“Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham.” Rom 4:16

“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” – Rom 4:5

Related:
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation?
Is human will capable of choosing or rejecting Jesus?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: DarthNeo
Upvote 0

Jennifer Rothnie

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
514
311
40
Washington
✟45,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Luke 15:24
[24] For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

He was dead spiritually. God did a work in this "sons" heart. God made this "son" alive, just as he does with all of His children. The saving is from God, start to finish.

I was once dead too. How was I made alive? God did it. How will I persevere? God makes me both willing and to do of His good pleasure.
God will "finish the work" He started in me, God willing!

We were all once dead. God makes us alive when we are saved through faith, dying to sin and rising with Christ into new life (Eph 2:1-10, Col 2:10-16, Rom 5 & Rom 6, etc.) God energizes us to desire and work effectually for His good pleasure. We have to 'hold fast' to our confession in the face of persecution (Heb 10:23, Heb 3:6) - but God gives us everything we need to sustain us. Jesus is the pioneer and perfecter of our faith - all we need to do is remain in Him in faith.
What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith?
Is faith/confessing Christ a one time act that leads to salvation?
What is 'perseverance of the saints' and is it biblical?

****

In the parable of the prodigal son, God is symbolized by the 'Father.' Who the 'sons' represent is a matter of debate: The older representing the religious class and the younger the sinners and publicans, the older representing the Jews and the younger the Gentiles, the older representing a long-standing Christian while the younger someone who comes to Christ late in life, the older 'legally righteous' while the younger an unrepentant sinner, some combination of the above, etc.

The younger son takes his inheritance early, moves far away, and squanders his wealth. His Father (God) did not stop him in any of this. When the son finds himself in dire need, all his friends having abandoned him, he goes and hires himself as a worker feeding pigs.

What brings him out of this depth of squalor and starvation? Did the father come get him? No, he "came to his senses" (or more literal to the Greek, 'he came to himself') he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!

Basically, the son came to the realization, based on what he already knew about his father, that even his Father's servants were in a better situation than he was. The Father didn't skype him to run it in or otherwise 'reveal' this - the son already knew the state of the Father's household. Further revelation wasn't needed for the son to finally realize the truth. (In the same way, the revelation of Christ and the gospel is enough for the unbeliever to realize the truth of his state of sin.)

The next step was also taken by the son:
"I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ So he got up and went to his father."

He did not just recognize his hopeless condition, but acted upon that recognition. In the same way, it is not just the recognition that Jesus is God that saves (Jms 2:19) but repenting and truly believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord. This living, active faith will lead to life change as we turn from walking by the flesh to walking by the Spirit which God gives us.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him."

The Father did not make the son come to meet Him - the son began the journey. (In the same way, we have to go 'through the gate' or 'through Christ' to be saved.) The Father meets the son, running to him, filled with compassion.

The son then turns to the Father in repentance and humility, but the Father rejects his offer to become a servant. "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’

Since the 'dead son' was still able to come to his senses, realize his conditio, and return to the Father on his own two feet, then care should be taken treating the figurative use of 'nekros' as meaning complete spiritual unresponsiveness or complete inability, as that takes the term far beyond its metaphorical implications.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Luke 15:24
[24] For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

He was dead spiritually. God did a work in this "sons" heart. God made this "son" alive, just as he does with all of His children. The saving is from God, start to finish.

I was once dead too. How was I made alive? God did it. How will I persevere? God makes me both willing and to do of His good pleasure.
God will "finish the work" He started in me, God willing!

I fully agree with what you said, but that is not what I am addressing.

The point I am making is like with the prodigal son in a dead state (just as the young son did in his dead state) you can come to your senses and turn to the father. The father makes you alive and showers you with gifts, but that is after you turn (give up, wimp out, surrender).

God is not going to force you to take His gifts (charity/Love/forgiveness/grace/mercy) since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. If God programs you to Love Him what kind of Love is that?
 
Upvote 0

Late Apex

Active Member
Apr 18, 2017
104
38
61
USA
✟11,313.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I fully agree with what you said, but that is not what I am addressing.

The point I am making is like with the prodigal son in a dead state (just as the young son did in his dead state) you can come to your senses and turn to the father. The father makes you alive and showers you with gifts, but that is after you turn (give up, wimp out, surrender).

God is not going to force you to take His gifts (charity/Love/forgiveness/grace/mercy) since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. If God programs you to Love Him what kind of Love is that?

Please dissect the word "draw" in the original language and tell me what you come up with....please.

John 6:
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Upvote 0

GillDouglas

Reformed Christian
Dec 21, 2013
1,116
450
USA
Visit site
✟29,425.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Please dissect the word "draw" in the original language and tell me what you come up with....please.

John 6:
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
"Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes" (Isaiah 5:18)
"But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?" (James 2:6)
"Draw water for the siege; strengthen your forts; go into the clay; tread the mortar; take hold of the brick mold!" (Nahum 3:14)
"Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts." (Psalms 28:3)
 
Upvote 0

Late Apex

Active Member
Apr 18, 2017
104
38
61
USA
✟11,313.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes" (Isaiah 5:18)
"But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?" (James 2:6)
"Draw water for the siege; strengthen your forts; go into the clay; tread the mortar; take hold of the brick mold!" (Nahum 3:14)
"Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts." (Psalms 28:3)

Yep, the word "drag" says it all. I have no problem being dragged toward God, by God, because dragging me out of sin is real freedom, and that is exactly what happened.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: GillDouglas
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I unequivocally affirm the Sovereignty of God. I love the fact that God is Sovereign. However, in conjunction with this truth lies somewhere the responsibility of man. A.W. Pink tries to answer in his book "The Sovereignty of God." I like Pink, but do not think he answered fully. Perhaps it is something man cannot fully understand. I would like to discuss these following questions as asked by Pink in His chapter on Sovereignty and Human Responsibility:


"How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility? Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do? Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation?"
Man is created as a morally responsible being, so that, as a certain age is attained, presuming soundness of mind, he's accountable for his free choices and the actions that follow them. This should be obvious to anyone who's basically aware of the world he finds himself in. We have the freedom to choose between good and evil, right and wrong, life and death. And for the purpose of answering the question posed in the OP, this is all we really need to know.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jennifer Rothnie

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
514
311
40
Washington
✟45,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please dissect the word "draw" in the original language and tell me what you come up with....please.

John 6:
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

helkýō properly means 'to induce' or 'draw in,' with emphasis on the attractive power of the one inducing or drawing vs. the actions or resistance of the person/thing being drawn. Literal uses would include things like 'he unsheathed his sword, 'she drew water', 'they dragged the prisoner up the platform', etc. Metaphorically or figuratively, it is 'to draw by inward power,' such as 'his charisma drew people in.'

In Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32, its usage is clearly figurative in the Greek.

From Strongs:

STRONGS NT 1670: ἕλκωἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also (Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82))); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elz John 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;

1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰςκριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπότῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρόςἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)
 
Upvote 0

Late Apex

Active Member
Apr 18, 2017
104
38
61
USA
✟11,313.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32, its usage is clearly figurative in the Greek.

You can certainly view John 6:44 as "clearly figurative." As for myself, it means what it says and says what it means, VERY clearly.
 
Upvote 0

Jennifer Rothnie

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
514
311
40
Washington
✟45,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of falsehood, who draw sin as with cart ropes" (Isaiah 5:18)
"But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?" (James 2:6)
"Draw water for the siege; strengthen your forts; go into the clay; tread the mortar; take hold of the brick mold!" (Nahum 3:14)
"Do not drag me off with the wicked, with the workers of evil, who speak peace with their neighbors while evil is in their hearts." (Psalms 28:3)

While those are some examples of the Greek helkyo and Hebrew mashak can be used, it is not a full picture of the terms.

Much like the English word 'draw,' helkyo has both literal and figurative use as attested to in scripture and other ancient Greek writings.

"STRONGS: metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπότῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρόςἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)"

It is actually very similar to the English word 'draw,' as draw in English has very similar literal vs. figurative uses and also (like helkyo) focuses on the power of the attraction vs. the resistance level of who/what is being drawn.

In Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44, the use of the term is clearly figurative.

The Hebrew mashak is a bit of a different term, with quite variety of renderings, though again close to the English 'draw' in its many applications. The basic verb is draw/drag but it is applied to many actions - not just drawing a bowstring, but marching, drawing out sound, prolonging, etc. and some figurative uses like cheering/stimulating (Ecc 2:3.)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Please dissect the word "draw" in the original language and tell me what you come up with....please.

John 6:
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Does drawing someone mean kidnapping them (taking them kicking and screaming)?

The invitation from a wonderful Loving generous King (God) is a tremendous draw and it is hard to believe anyone would turn it down, but according to Christ’s parables people did turn it down.

Just because God draws every person who came to Jesus does not mean everyone God tried to draw and wanted to come accepted the draw (unbelievable wonderful invitation). It would not be Loving on God’s part; to be the one holding the gun in a shotgun wedding on the sinner to get him to accept God’s charity, since the sinner would not be humbly accepting the pure charity.

You did not address my post 43?
 
Upvote 0

Jennifer Rothnie

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
514
311
40
Washington
✟45,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You can certainly view John 6:44 as "clearly figurative." As for myself, it means what it says and says what it means, VERY clearly.

Figurative language, as I am sure you know, doesn't mean something 'doesn't say what it means.' Rather, it 'doesn't mean what it literally says.' If an English speaker says, 'she's bending over backwards' - they don't mean she is literally bending backwards, but they do literally mean that she is working hard.
When the psalmist in Psa 21:12 says. 'you will make ready your arrows on your string towards their faces,' he does not mean that God is literally busy notching arrows into a bow. He does literally mean that God is readying a fearsome judgment that they will not escape.
What does it mean when Psalm 21:12 says "You will make ready your arrows on your string toward their faces"?

When Jesus says, 'do not hide your light under a bushel', He does not mean that we should literally stop putting lamps or candles under bushels (although that might be practical advice). He does literally mean that we should stop trying to hide our spiritual light from the world.

Figurative language is found in every known human language. It goes deeper than merely local idioms or blatant parables and similes, but is found any time a 'physical' word has non-physical application or where a common term or phrase is used to pull out a more abstract concept.

When it comes to Jn 6:44, almost everyone would agree that by 'unless the Father who sent me draws him' that the verse is not referring to physical means like by a sword or physical force of arms. Most would agree that this refers to some form of spiritual drawing or other non-physical means. As such, Jn 6:44 fits well with the figurative' to draw by inward power' meaning for helkyo, not more physical uses such as unsheathing a sword or soldiers dragging someone. Strong's places it as a figurative use, and uses other ancient Greek writings to back that up.

The Septuagint also sheds some light as the term is used twice there as well, in Songs 1:4 and in Jer 31:3.

"Draw me, we will run after you: the king has brought me into his chambers:... " Songs 1:4

"The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness." Jer 31:3

Here too, the usages are figurative. The groom does not draw the bride into his chambers by force or rope, but by the offer of his love. The Lord draws Israel with His 'kindness,' not with a literal sword, and that kindness (as the chapter shows) doesn't prevent Israel's rebellion, but induces them to repent and return.

"The word does not necessarily imply force, still less irresistible force, but merely attraction of some kind, some inducement to come. Comp. ‘with loving-kindness have I drawn thee’ (Jeremiah 31:3), and Virgil’s trahit sua quemque voluptas." - Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

"The word “draw” need not perplex us; and all the theories opposed to the width of divine love and influence, and to the freedom of human will and action, which have been built upon it, are at once seen to be without support, when we remember that the only other passage in the New Testament where it occurs in a moral sense is in the declaration: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me” ("John 12:32)." - Ellicott's commentary for English readers

Likewise, Jn 12:32 is not speaking of physical means, but Christ drawing all things to Himself by His 'lifting up' (or death and Ressurection), thus gaining the authority over all things and attracting all men with the offer of eternal life - which we also see in Matt 28:18-19, I Cor 15:20-28, Phil 2:9-11, Jn 3:14-15, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Late Apex

Active Member
Apr 18, 2017
104
38
61
USA
✟11,313.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Does drawing someone mean kidnapping them (taking them kicking and screaming)?

The invitation from a wonderful Loving generous King (God) is a tremendous draw and it is hard to believe anyone would turn it down, but according to Christ’s parables people did turn it down.

Just because God draws every person who came to Jesus does not mean everyone God tried to draw and wanted to come accepted the draw (unbelievable wonderful invitation). It would not be Loving on God’s part; to be the one holding the gun in a shotgun wedding on the sinner to get him to accept God’s charity, since the sinner would not be humbly accepting the pure charity.

You did not address my post 43?

I don't agree. Does "drawing" mean kicking and screaming? Sometimes. "Shotgun wedding?" Not exactly because after I'm done kicking and screaming I realize God just made me free from sin. He made me alive when I was dead. He gave me sight when I was blind. A slave or servant to God is absolute FREEDOM.

Jonah decided he would run from God. Where did he end up? In the ocean swimming for his life and then inside the belly of a fish. What was his reply when he got dumped on dry land?
"SALVATION IS OF THE LORD." Amen!

When someone is drawn to God, yes even kicking and screaming, the end result is the same. "Salvation is of the Lord." NOT "why did I get drawn here." I myself have kicked and screamed, but thankfully God has never let me go and my prayer is that if I ever kick and scream in my flesh, God will drag me back to Himself, forever.

I answered #43 with #44 and #46.
 
Upvote 0

EmSw

White Horse Rider
Apr 26, 2014
6,434
718
✟66,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't agree. Does "drawing" mean kicking and screaming? Sometimes. "Shotgun wedding?" Not exactly because after I'm done kicking and screaming I realize God just made me free from sin. He made me alive when I was dead. He gave me sight when I was blind. A slave or servant to God is absolute FREEDOM.

Jonah decided he would run from God. Where did he end up? In the ocean swimming for his life and then inside the belly of a fish. What was his reply when he got dumped on dry land?
"SALVATION IS OF THE LORD." Amen!

When someone is drawn to God, yes even kicking and screaming, the end result is the same. "Salvation is of the Lord." NOT "why did I get drawn here." I myself have kicked and screamed, but thankfully God has never let me go and my prayer is that if I ever kick and scream in my flesh, God will drag me back to Himself, forever.

I answered #43 with #44 and #46.

Not everyone drawn stays. Some are thrown away and rejected.

Matthew 13
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't agree. Does "drawing" mean kicking and screaming? Sometimes. "Shotgun wedding?" Not exactly because after I'm done kicking and screaming I realize God just made me free from sin. He made me alive when I was dead. He gave me sight when I was blind. A slave or servant to God is absolute FREEDOM.

Jonah decided he would run from God. Where did he end up? In the ocean swimming for his life and then inside the belly of a fish. What was his reply when he got dumped on dry land?
"SALVATION IS OF THE LORD." Amen!

When someone is drawn to God, yes even kicking and screaming, the end result is the same. "Salvation is of the Lord." NOT "why did I get drawn here." I myself have kicked and screamed, but thankfully God has never let me go and my prayer is that if I ever kick and scream in my flesh, God will drag me back to Himself, forever.

.

You have to build your whole doctrine on the interpretation of helkyo to only mean dragging, because that is the only way God could have a family.

God has to kidnap His children (the potential child of God within every person) away from sinful nonbeliever, to have a family?

Every example in the New Testament would support the idea man has a choice in accepting or rejecting the invitation and is not being “forced” by some inter reprogramming that makes him accepting. Even if you look at Saul to Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus, Saul could have reasoned our of pride that he had just fallen off hid horse from heat stroke, been blinded by the sun and had a delusion and why would God go through all this if all God had to do was change Saul’s heart to acceptance. Why would Peter need to preach his moving sermon on Pentecost when all he need to say was “repent and be baptize to you who God has changed”?

What Christ did on the cross was an actual ransom payment, but we say God and/or Christ made that ransom payment and do not present the idea God is the kidnapper and making these kidnapped kids His, so God dragging children off is just the opposite.

Jennifer Rothnie has done an excellent job of explaining the meaning “helkyo” would have to have so I will not go into that further.

Are you suggesting; we are very much like androids all programmed to fight and reject God, so for us to “accept” God’s invitation we would have to be reprogrammed by God to do that?

What value is there in being loved by an android you programmed to Love you, as compared to being Loved by a free will individual who autonomously chose to accept your Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season) and thus Loves you as a result of that choice and Love you showed him/her?

What does man have to humbly accept in order to bring glory to God, or does everything automatically bring glory to God, like a tree brings glory to God by being a tree?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Late Apex

Active Member
Apr 18, 2017
104
38
61
USA
✟11,313.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have to build your whole doctrine on the interpretation of helkyo to only mean dragging, because that is the only way God could have a family.

God has to kidnap His children (the potential child of God within every person) away from sinful nonbeliever, to have a family?

Every example in the New Testament would support the idea man has a choice in accepting or rejecting the invitation and is not being “forced” by some inter reprogramming that makes him accepting. Even if you look at Saul to Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus, Saul could have reasoned our of pride that he had just fallen off hid horse from heat stroke, been blinded by the sun and had a delusion and why would God go through all this if all God had to do was change Saul’s heart to acceptance. Why would Peter need to preach his moving sermon on Pentecost when all he need to say was “repent and be baptize to you who God has changed”?

What Christ did on the cross was an actual ransom payment, but we say God and/or Christ made that ransom payment and do not present the idea God is the kidnapper and making these kidnapped kids His, so God dragging children off is just the opposite.

Jennifer Rothnie has done an excellent job of explaining the meaning “helkyo” would have to have so I will not go into that further.

Are you suggesting; we are very much like androids all programmed to fight and reject God, so for us to “accept” God’s invitation we would have to be reprogrammed by God to do that?

What value is there in being loved by an android you programmed to Love you, as compared to being Loved by a free will individual who autonomously chose to accept your Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season) and thus Loves you as a result of that choice and Love you showed him/her?

What does man have to humbly accept in order to bring glory to God, or does everything automatically bring glory to God, like a tree brings glory to God by being a tree?

It's not about being an android. It's about being made alive when we were dead in our own sin. We are all born with a sin nature. If you cannot get past that, we cannot move forward. If you think man is not born spiritually dead and that there is "nothing good" in man in his natural self, we cannot progress.
I am certainly willing to choose Christ. Why?
Because it is God that MAKES me willing. Android? I am the freest android on planet earth. Remember, a slave/servant to Christ is TRUE freedom.
BTW: if you think about this, the most merciful, gracious, loving thing God could ever do for ANYONE would be to "DRAG" him out of his sin and slavery to said sin. Why? Because God is making this person alive and saving this person from hell eternal. What could be more loving than that??????

Psalms 110:
[3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Philippians 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 4:
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.
 
Upvote 0

GillDouglas

Reformed Christian
Dec 21, 2013
1,116
450
USA
Visit site
✟29,425.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
You have to build your whole doctrine on the interpretation of helkyo to only mean dragging, because that is the only way God could have a family.

God has to kidnap His children (the potential child of God within every person) away from sinful nonbeliever, to have a family?

Every example in the New Testament would support the idea man has a choice in accepting or rejecting the invitation and is not being “forced” by some inter reprogramming that makes him accepting. Even if you look at Saul to Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus, Saul could have reasoned our of pride that he had just fallen off hid horse from heat stroke, been blinded by the sun and had a delusion and why would God go through all this if all God had to do was change Saul’s heart to acceptance. Why would Peter need to preach his moving sermon on Pentecost when all he need to say was “repent and be baptize to you who God has changed”?

What Christ did on the cross was an actual ransom payment, but we say God and/or Christ made that ransom payment and do not present the idea God is the kidnapper and making these kidnapped kids His, so God dragging children off is just the opposite.

Jennifer Rothnie has done an excellent job of explaining the meaning “helkyo” would have to have so I will not go into that further.

Are you suggesting; we are very much like androids all programmed to fight and reject God, so for us to “accept” God’s invitation we would have to be reprogrammed by God to do that?

What value is there in being loved by an android you programmed to Love you, as compared to being Loved by a free will individual who autonomously chose to accept your Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season) and thus Loves you as a result of that choice and Love you showed him/her?

What does man have to humbly accept in order to bring glory to God, or does everything automatically bring glory to God, like a tree brings glory to God by being a tree?
All are born children of wrath.
Some are adopted as children of God.
His children may then call God , Abba, or Father.
His children are heirs to Christ's perfect work.
His work secures them.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Late Apex
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
All are born children of wrath.
Some are adopted as children of God.
His children may then call God , Abba, or Father.
His children are heirs to Christ's perfect work.
His work secures them.
A bit too pat there IMO. They can still "unsecure" themselves. God has never been in the business of completely overwhelming man's will. If He were, then Adam couldn't have fallen, and there'd certainly be nothing in humans that could possibly make them "children of wrath", let alone deserving of some kind of eternal torment. That wouldn't seem to make for much of a god.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jennifer Rothnie

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
514
311
40
Washington
✟45,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's not about being an android. It's about being made alive when we were dead in our own sin. We are all born with a sin nature. If you cannot get past that, we cannot move forward. If you think man is not born spiritually dead and that there is "nothing good" in man in his natural self, we cannot progress.
I am certainly willing to choose Christ. Why?
Because it is God that MAKES me willing. Android? I am the freest android on planet earth. Remember, a slave/servant to Christ is TRUE freedom.
BTW: if you think about this, the most merciful, gracious, loving thing God could ever do for ANYONE would be to "DRAG" him out of his sin and slavery to said sin. Why? Because God is making this person alive and saving this person from hell eternal. What could be more loving than that??????

Psalms 110:
[3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Philippians 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 4:
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

It does seem the 'sticking point' here keeps going back to the depravity of man. You seem to be taking it far beyond what scripture says, into the realm of total inability to respond to the gospel in faith, despite all the work of Christ on the cross.

Note who is saying that 'nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh' - Paul! He's already a Christian in Rom 7:18 and already has faith. If his flesh had to somehow be 'made good' before he could have faith, then why is he still saying that 'nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh?' Likewise, who are those who God is at work in to desire and work his good pleasure in Phil 2:13? Christians! Non-Christians can't 'work out their salvation' (Phil 2:12) - they are not yet saved. Who love God? Christians, not unbelievers. That doesn't mean God doesn't love others, but that those who do not love do not know God (I John 4:8). John clarifies that God showed his love by sending Christ to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins, that we might live through him, and for that reason we 'ought to love.'

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love in us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." I John 4:8-11

He also gives the prescription for how to join God's love - faith!: "If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God." I Jn 4:15

I am not particularly sure why the Psa 110:3 verse is relevant since it is speaking of Jesus conquering His enemies on the day of wrath. Once again, it speaks of Christians who already follow Jesus (many of whom are likely dead at this time:

"Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in holy splendor, your young men will come to you like dew from the morning’s womb." Psalm 110:3

It does show that Christians are acting as 'free will' offerings here, and not as conscripted soldiers with no choice.

As already mentioned previously, being corrupted by sin and under the condemnation of death does not mean that someone can 'never do anything good.' Please re-read post #31. I've already posted many scriptures and examples from scripture that directly contradict the speculation that man is so fallen in sin that even the work of Christ is insufficient to allow them to respond to the gospel in faith.

Remember, faith itself is not a work of righteousness. Rather, it is the work God requires so that the righteousness of Christ may be imputed to us.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

It's -credited- to our account as righteousness. It, itself, is not considered a righteous work of man.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,163
1,805
✟794,962.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's not about being an android. It's about being made alive when we were dead in our own sin. We are all born with a sin nature. If you cannot get past that, we cannot move forward. If you think man is not born spiritually dead and that there is "nothing good" in man in his natural self, we cannot progress.
I am certainly willing to choose Christ. Why?
Because it is God that MAKES me willing. Android? I am the freest android on planet earth. Remember, a slave/servant to Christ is TRUE freedom.
BTW: if you think about this, the most merciful, gracious, loving thing God could ever do for ANYONE would be to "DRAG" him out of his sin and slavery to said sin. Why? Because God is making this person alive and saving this person from hell eternal. What could be more loving than that??????

Psalms 110:
[3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,

Philippians 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 John 4:
[19] We love him, because he first loved us.

You say: “We are all born with a sin nature.” So:

Were Adam and Eve created with this “sinful nature”?

If Adam and Eve were not created with a “sinful nature” and they sinned why would we have to be born with this sinful nature to sin?

The Bible does not say some “sinful nature” was pasted down to man because Adam and Eve sinned, but the knowledge of Good and Evil and the curses, but is knowledge bad in and of itself and these “curses” that were passed down do they in some way help at least some humans fulfill their earthly objective?

Answer me this: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting His pure charity (where you are today)?

If the knowledge of good and evil is this “sinful nature” then we have received a sinful nature, but the Bible does not say anything else.


You say: “God that MAKES me willing”, so God reprograms a few people to be willing?

Would it be great type of Love if it was not the result of reprogramming the being, but it was the result of the being’s autonomous free will choice with likely alternatives?


You said: “Because God is making this person alive and saving this person from hell eternal. What could be more loving than that”

Would it not show a great Love if God made everyone alive? (this is not done for a good reason, so what is the reason?)

Would the greatest gift God could possibly give be: allowing a being to become virtually just like God is in that God has the free will needed to have Godly type Love (God is Love). Now with this type of Love you could participate in the Love feast in heaven, since it is only Godly type Love at that feast.

Godly type Love is not an instinctive (robotic) type of love nor can this Love be forced on a person (like our shotgun wedding, since it would not be Loving to try to do it that way and the Love received would not be Godly type Love). The only way to receive this unbelievable huge gift of Love is by what Christ taught us in Luke 7 (…he that is forgiven much Loves much…). He that is forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically be given an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).
 
Upvote 0