Socialized Medicine or Free Market -- poll

Best for the US

  • Socialized Medicine

    Votes: 20 62.5%
  • Free Market

    Votes: 12 37.5%

  • Total voters
    32

Greyy

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It's great that the military does that, but we all pay for it. A profit motive is necessary in civilian life, otherwise people won't (in general) bother.

A single payer system is nothing more than the citizens of the country negotiating with an industry for access to their market.
 
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Greyy

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The problem with free market healthcare in this country is that it died a long time ago. It was killed by the FDA that created monopolies for drug companies and lucrative careers for corporate lawyers. It was killed by insurance companies that lobbied against interstate competition so they could protect their bottom lines instead of people. And it was killed by a healthcare system that allows a hospital to charge $20 for an aspirin that a pharmacy sells for two cents. Government broke the system, so why would we think they could fix it?

Governments have. Last I recall, Canadians weren't demanding to get rid of government coverage so they could buy their own insurance or get it from their employer.
 
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Greyy

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If I apply for auto-insurance and have several speeding tickets, that pre-existing condition will result in higher premiums. The same applies to health insurance, otherwise no company could stay in business.

The differences between the two are quite dramatic.

If I have a pre-existing health condition, it may not be my fault. If I don't have car insurance, I can't legally drive. If I don't have health insurance, I can legally die.

I believe in being logical and efficient. People require some basic services, and preventative care in order to live. Let's have everyone pay into that to cover those needs.
 
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Yarddog

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For profit heath insurance is the only kind of insurance that can ever be. Doctors must earn a living and hospitals must pay overhead. You work for profit, and so does Bill Gates. We all do.
Are you aware that the average family doctor makes more money per year in Canada than in the US? This also applies to specialists and surgeons.
 
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HereIStand

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It isn't a difficult concept.

As a society, we recognize that there are things everyone should have access to and we all pay for it. We all have the right to protection from police and access to the justice system. We determined that everyone has a right, and that is serves the common good, to provide everyone access to a basic education.

No one should be deprived of their right to life, any more than their right to justice, because of money.
My sense it is more difficult than a police force. Policemen (and women) are government employees. We can't make health care workers government employees, so they become government contractors (?) under a socialized. Getting everyone paid is huge undertaking in such a system.
 
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HereIStand

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Hi hereistand,

I read your post and I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person and generally have a pretty solid grasp of the definitions of words and how, by putting words together in a string, cogent thoughts are transported to others. However, in reading the words of you your post, I honestly can't seem to grasp the correlation that you seem to be saying must necessarily exist between the social constructs that you mention and their direct relationship on the issue of healthcare. I can find at least a dozen of the nations that have some sort of largely government sponsored and supported healthcare systems that don't offer any of the other social programs that you mention.

So, for the simple minded such as myself, would you be so kind as to explain why a society that has government sponsored or supported healthcare must also be one that has free college, required military service and state supported churches?

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
Thank you, Ted. The examples weren't meant to be a one size fits all for every nation. I knew a guy from France in college. He had to do required military service in France. His education was paid for, as was his health care. Our system is more complicated in part because being American isn't tied to ethnicity, as it is France. If we all spoke French here and were at least historically Catholic, nationalized health care would be easier to achieve.
 
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RDKirk

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It isn't a difficult concept.

As a society, we recognize that there are things everyone should have access to and we all pay for it. We all have the right to protection from police and access to the justice system. We determined that everyone has a right, and that is serves the common good, to provide everyone access to a basic education.

No one should be deprived of their right to life, any more than their right to justice, because of money.

Rights? What are rights?

We can debate rights, however I do expect any government to do that which enables a more stable society. Even the ancient Roman Empire understood the need for public welfare projects and even had public food doles.

The costs of the US healthcare apparatus have gotten out of control--they have no basis in anything reasonable.

When my mother had a series of brain surgeries, the hospital fitted her with a leather helmet to protect the area between procedures. This helmet looked pretty much like the old-time leather football helmets. I saw that it was made in Korea...and I saw that the hospital billed $2000 for that helmet.

I took pictures of it to a local livery store (this was Oklahoma--plenty of places selling leather equestrian goods). I asked them how much it would cost to custom-make a similar device. They quoted $500. Now, I've bought leather goods in South Korea before, and I know darned well nobody paid over $100 for that helmet; and I could get it custom made locally for only $500.

My daughter recently went to an emergency room for a sudden eye infection. Unfortunately, she was moving between jobs and was in a healthcare gap. They did a blood test, sent her back home, and charged $8,000. I said eight thousand dollars. My wife negotiated it down to $4,000.

First point: Eight thousand dollars was absurd.

Second point: The fact that they were fairly easily negotiated down to $4,000 proves that $8,000 was absurd. And it's not unusual to be able to negotiate medical bills substantially lower.

The fact that no insurance pays what is charged also proves their charges are absurd. If their charges were actually based on their costs, they'd all be out of business if they never got what they charged.

A Chicago television news station shopped around the Chicago area hospitals for an uncomplicated appendectomy. The cost from hospital to hospital to hospital/surgeon to surgeon ranged from $1,500 to over $250,000.

This kind of situation--when one hospital visit can cause a bankruptcy--is only increasing exponentially every year. It will very soon--as Boomers age--create a genuine national emergency...and that is why I expect government to deal with it rather than pretend it's not happening.
 
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RDKirk

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My sense it is more difficult than a police force. Policemen (and women) are government employees. We can't make health care workers government employees, so they become government contractors (?) under a socialized. Getting everyone paid is huge undertaking in such a system.

No. Please get the terms right. If they were government employees, then the system would be "socialized."

If they are government contractors, that is not socialization, that's still private enterprise.

The military, for instance, operates with private contractors all the time. Much of the services on military installations (even in combat zones) are provided by private contractors. Nobody says we have a socialized DoD.
 
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RDKirk

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Thank you, Ted. The examples weren't meant to be a one size fits all for every nation. I knew a guy from France in college. He had to do required military service in France. His education was paid for, as was his health care. Our system is more complicated in part because being American isn't tied to ethnicity, as it is France. If we all spoke French here and were at least historically Catholic, nationalized health care would be easier to achieve.

Officially, all the inhabitants of the former French colonies were automatically made citizens of France. So a Chadian was a citizen of France; an Algerian was a citizen of France; a Vietnamese was a citizen of France. As a result, France is very multicultural.
 
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Greyy

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Rights? What are rights?

We can debate rights, however I do expect any government to do that which enables a more stable society. Even the ancient Roman Empire understood the need for public welfare projects and even had public food doles.

You mean the Roman Empire built aquaducts the provided water for people in cities and they didn't charge them individually for their usage?

The costs of the US healthcare apparatus have gotten out of control--they have no basis in anything reasonable.

When my mother had a series of brain surgeries, the hospital fitted her with a leather helmet to protect the area between procedures. This helmet looked pretty much like the old-time leather football helmets. I saw that it was made in Korea...and I saw that the hospital billed $2000 for that helmet.

I took pictures of it to a local livery store (this was Oklahoma--plenty of places selling leather equestrian goods). I asked them how much it would cost to custom-make a similar device. They quoted $500. Now, I've bought leather goods in South Korea before, and I know darned well nobody paid over $100 for that helmet; and I could get it custom made locally for only $500.

My daughter recently went to an emergency room for a sudden eye infection. Unfortunately, she was moving between jobs and was in a healthcare gap. They did a blood test, sent her back home, and charged $8,000. I said eight thousand dollars. My wife negotiated it down to $4,000.

First point: Eight thousand dollars was absurd.

Second point: The fact that they were fairly easily negotiated down to $4,000 proves that $8,000 was absurd. And it's not unusual to be able to negotiate medical bills substantially lower.

The fact that no insurance pays what is charged also proves their charges are absurd. If their charges were actually based on their costs, they'd all be out of business if they never got what they charged.

A Chicago television news station shopped around the Chicago area hospitals for an uncomplicated appendectomy. The cost from hospital to hospital to hospital/surgeon to surgeon ranged from $1,500 to over $250,000.

This kind of situation--when one hospital visit can cause a bankruptcy--is only increasing exponentially every year. It will very soon--as Boomers age--create a genuine national emergency...and that is why I expect government to deal with it rather than pretend it's not happening.

It's not a question of if anymore, it is when. The only question is how many families will go bankrupt and how many people will need to die before this issue is resolved.
 
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Greyy

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My sense it is more difficult than a police force. Policemen (and women) are government employees. We can't make health care workers government employees, so they become government contractors (?) under a socialized. Getting everyone paid is huge undertaking in such a system.

Socialized medicine does not require nationalizing hospitals and making them government employees. Socialized medicine makes the government the insurance company with a substantial power of negotiation.
 
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miamited

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Thank you, Ted. The examples weren't meant to be a one size fits all for every nation. I knew a guy from France in college. He had to do required military service in France. His education was paid for, as was his health care. Our system is more complicated in part because being American isn't tied to ethnicity, as it is France. If we all spoke French here and were at least historically Catholic, nationalized health care would be easier to achieve.

Hi hereistand,

I get that, but what I'm asking is on what basis you believe that all these various and sundry social programs must and can only flow from a society that offers some sort of government paid or sponsored healthcare system? Personally, I think this argument of somehow 'ethnicty' making a particular difference in our nation's ability to provide what other nations seem to be able to provide for their people as having even some small iota of effect, just somehow sounds good to you as it rolls off your thoughts rather than it really being tied to any reality.

Great Britain is a nation of many diverse cultures. They have many of these cultures because for many, many years they ruled over other nations. Their laws and their government stood as the government of these many nations. The British empire, in its day, was pretty much as large and covered about as many people as the Roman empire in its day. India and South Africa still have a lot of tradition and government model based on the British model established when they were colonies. Hong Kong was only recently released from British rule when communist China took over. Because of these various nation relationships, there are a lot of people that were born in these nations that moved into Great Britain.

Yet, Great Britain has what many would say is a very good public healthcare system. They also have private healthcare coverage that people with the means and desire to have what they might perceive as better healthcare through private insurance coverage can buy on the open market just as we do. But, for them, it is an option. This idea that our being some 'specially diversified ethnic culture' that would make some great difference in our being able to copy such a system as Great Britain has in place, to me, is just a bunch of noise intended to obfuscate the issue.

However, I've always allowed that people are going to believe what they have convinced themselves is the truth, often despite facts or evidence to the contrary. Our biggest problem is that we are a proud nation of people who don't ever want to say that someone else seems to have done something better.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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Angel Wings 1288

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Hi angelwings,

Merely a point of clarification since you have labeled your antagonist dishonest. The claim was never made that you were the only one affected. The claim was merely that you seem to be more concerned with issues that directly affect you. Also:

af·fect1
əˈfekt/
verb
  1. have an effect on; make a difference to.
    "the dampness began to affect my health"
    synonyms: have an effect on, influence, act on, work on, have an impact on, impact;
God bless you,
In Christ, ted

Hi miamited,

Merely a point of clarification since you have incorrectly and condescendingly labeled an English "error" which doesn't exist. Affect is a verb, and effect is a noun. The so-called antagonist used effect as a verb, which isn't correct. I own an online non-profit and rely on donations as my source of income. It is important for me to have excellent prose writing skills to inspire people to donate. Since I value my composition ability, I like when people point out my English errors so that I can improve, so I return the favor and likewise help others. What I don't like, though, is when people patronizingly highlight mistakes in my writing that don't even exist. In the future, please don't do it again.

God bless you,
In Christ, James
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And here I thought the story of the Good Samaritan was to teach us that we are our brother's keeper and we are to give to care for others.
That mite affect your effections affecting your ability to effect the affections of others.
i.e. in the usa, and on this internet watched by g&&gle, y&who, and hundreds of other robots, (on most internet sites),
it is ILLEGAL to give care to others.

Note the recent arrests of pastors and amish and mennonites and
one old man,
for having the AUDACITY and LAW BREAKING ACTION
of
GIVING (yes, with no strings attached - giving) food to a homeless person....
and
likewise the arrests or court actions AGAINST medical providers who
get found out
GIVING GOOD CARE
to their patients.....

the system we all are enveloped in is quite malicious and dangerous and death-dealing.

And a few still do what is right, good in YHWH'S sight. (in spite of the system )
 
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miamited

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Hi miamited,

Merely a point of clarification since you have incorrectly and condescendingly labeled an English "error" which doesn't exist. Affect is a verb, and effect is a noun. The so-called antagonist used effect as a verb, which isn't correct. I own an online non-profit and rely on donations as my source of income. It is important for me to have excellent prose writing skills to inspire people to donate. Since I value my composition ability, I like when people point out my English errors so that I can improve, so I return the favor and likewise help others. What I don't like, though, is when people patronizingly highlight mistakes in my writing that don't even exist. In the future, please don't do it again.

God bless you,
In Christ, James

Hi James,

You seem to have taken offense at my post because I included a google definition of 'affect'. I didn't post that to make the point that you were wrong in any way in your correction of the other poster's comment. I just looked it up and copied it and posted it. If you read and understood the definition then you would also have understood that it completely supported your correction.

As far as your claim that I was 'patronizingly highlight(ing) mistakes' is generally a result of your particular prejudice in reading my post. Take a deep breath if you like. I am sorry that I offended you in that part of my post. However, the rest of my post does stand that you did make a claim of what the other poster said that was not what the other poster said.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted
 
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Hank77

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Officially, all the inhabitants of the former French colonies were automatically made citizens of France. So a Chadian was a citizen of France; an Algerian was a citizen of France; a Vietnamese was a citizen of France. As a result, France is very multicultural.
Not only that. If you are a US citizen but have taken up permanent residence in France you are now entitled to be on the PUMA, public health care system.
France's Excellent Healthcare System Just Got Easier For Expats | HuffPost
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Are you aware that the average family doctor makes more money per year in Canada than in the US? This also applies to specialists and surgeons.

Why would you think I care about that?

Are you aware that communist dictators eat caviar while people starve in the streets under their leadership?
 
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jgarden

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Socialized medicine costs society a lot less. The current system requires a lot of unneccessary paper pushing between hospitals and insurance companies and the employers that offer insurance. Can you imagine if we completely privatized roads? There would be huge costs associated with determining usage, billing, enforcement of billing and the numerous related billing issues.
Under the Canadian system, administrative costs are kept to a minimum.

Another major benefit is that Canadians don't face personal bankruptcy based on medical costs.
 
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Yarddog

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Why do you think I care about that?

Are you aware that communist dictators eat caviar while people starve in the streets under their leadership?
Didn't know that you had so little care about telling the truth.

Carry on.
 
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tulc

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(snip)

Are you aware that communist dictators eat caviar while people starve in the streets under their leadership?
...sounds like capitalist leaders as well. :wave:
tulc(thinks that sounds like pretty much every society in the history of the world) ;)
 
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