How come good Friday is only two days from Easter Sunday?

AFrazier said:

I don't see why that would be a problem.

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For you, no, it would not be a problem.

prodromos said:

The last supper was not a passover meal. They were reclining at the table whereas the passover meal was eaten standing with their loins girded. The last supper was a new institution established by Christ.

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The seder was done reclining as free men and still is today.

AFrazier said:

Negative. I have harmonized John. You have not and cannot harmonize the Synoptics. Therein lies the problem. I'm not content to say that the Bible contradicts itself. You seem to be okay with that. And it has only been debated because of responses like the one you just gave. Three gospels are being ignored in your interpretation. But I can show that John works in the framework of the other three.

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Go ahead but I will likely disagree with your timing...

prodromos said:

The last supper was not a passover meal. They were reclining at the table whereas the passover meal was eaten standing with their loins girded. The last supper was a new institution established by Christ.

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Please advise ... what date belongs to the following scriptures?

Mark 14:12 — And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

Please advise ... did the disciples make ready the passover in the following passages, or did they not?

Matt. 26:17-21 — [...] Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat […]

Mark 14:12-18 — [...] Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he will show you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us. And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat […]

Luke 22:7-15 — Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall show you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer.

It honestly gets old having people tell me I'm mistaken in the face of these passages. What part of them is difficult to comprehend? We establish truth in the mouth of how many witnesses? Does tradition and theology take precedent over black and white scripture? Does the mistaken interpretation of John really have more authority than the plain statements of three separate gospels?

Please ... Acknowledge the scriptures. I don't want to argue this with you, too.

Der Alter said:

Nonsense cherry picking. If you notice I quoted nine (9) sources including BAG. You have the idea that agei means only "lead" and ignore the 9 sources I quoted so you find a source that says what you want to hear.
.....Please tell me on what do you base your assumption that Berean is correct and the 9 sources, with more than 240 years of Greek scholarship, I quoted are wrong? Here again is definition #4 for ἄγω from the BAG Greek lexicon. The sources from which the scholars derive their translation are highlighted in blue.

4. of time spend ( Eur. , Hdt. +; Aberciusinschr. 18; LXX ) aj. th;n hJmevran th;n ojgdovhn eij" eujfrosuvnhn celebrate the eighth day as a festival of joy B 15:9 ( cf. Dit., Or. 90, 47 [196 BC ] a[gein ta;" hJmevra" tauvta" eJortav" ; PGoodspeed 3, 18 [III BC ] hJmevran kalh;n h[gagon).
Perh. impers. trivthn tauvthn hJmevran a[gei this is the third day Lk 24:21 ; but, since this expr. cannot be found elsewhere, it is prob. better to supply jIhsou`" as subj. ( Bl-D. §129 app. ) lit. Jesus is spending the third day ( cf. Galen XIII 581 Kühn tetavrthn hJmevran a[gwn ajnwvduno" h\n, XI 65 K. povshn a[gei th;n ajpo; tou` nosei`n hJmevran oJ a[nqrwpo"). Of festivals celebrate, observe ( Hdt. +; Aesop , Fab. 389 P. genevqlion a[gein ; Jos. , Ant. 11, 77=IEsdr 4:50) genevsia Mt 14:6 v.l .; to; savbbaton PK 2 p. 14, 28; neomhnivan ibid. 1. 29. Of meetings (like Lat. ? ? ? ? ? ) sumbouvlion a[gein hold a meeting IPol 7:2. Pass. ajgorai`oi a[gontai ( s. ajgorai`o" 2) Ac 19:38 .​

Acts 19:38
(38) Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open,[ἄγω] and there are deputies: let them implead one another.

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Shalom Der Alter, I'm amazed, you act like this verse is set in concrete and ALL of your experts agree. Baloney. The BAG says, "this expression cannot be found elsewhere," A.T. Robertson says, "A difficult idiom for the English," Vincent Word Studies says, "The phrase forms an idiom which cannot be neatly rendered," Expositors Greek Testament says, "probably," and "other suggestions," and then you give a few commentators that really do not address the Greek. And you want to play numbers with me...9 experts/sources, and they are all over the place with their "difficulities" and "suggestions?" Why just not accept an accurate translation that simply expresses the Truth. It's only difficult for them because they do not want to translate what is being said...Today LEADS the third day AWAY FROM...Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

I understand what you are trying to say and I am saying it is wrong. Are you saying Yeshua was NOT the Passover lamb?

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Shalom Yeshua HaDerekh, have you considered this Scripture in your thinking:

Numbers 9:13 ‘But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and has failed to perform the Passover, that same being shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of יהוה at its appointed time – that man bears his sin.

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Der Alter, I'm amazed, you act like this verse is set in concrete and ALL of your experts agree. Baloney. The BAG says, "this expression cannot be found elsewhere," A.T. Robertson says, "A difficult idiom for the English," Vincent Word Studies says, "The phrase forms an idiom which cannot be neatly rendered," Expositors Greek Testament says, "probably," and "other suggestions," and then you give a few commentators that really do not address the Greek. And you want to play numbers with me...9 experts/sources, and they are all over the place with their "difficulities" and "suggestions?" Why just not accept an accurate translation that simply expresses the Truth. It's only difficult for them because they do not want to translate what is being said...Today LEADS the third day AWAY FROM...Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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I'm amazed, you act like this verse is set in concrete and hold up this one translation Berean as if it is the be all, end all authority carved in stone and Moses carried it down from Mt Sinai.
.....All of your objections are uninformed, specious and irrelevant. You pick out 1-2 words as if that is all the scholar said. How many credit hours of Greek did you say you had? Can you bring 340+ years of Greek scholarship to the discussion as I did? How many Greek scholars are employed at the Berean Society? Until you can show me some Greek scholars who translate at Berean it is meaningless to me as it would be to all the scholars I listed.
I went to their home page I could not find where any scholars are listed.
....."this expression cannot be found elsewhere" simply means it is a hapax legomai, it only occurs once in the NT, there is no other NT example to compare it to. This does not mean the word ἄγω does not occur, the exact phrase does not occur. There are a number of hapax legomai in the Bible.
There are many Greek and Hebrew idioms which cannot be neatly rendered in English.
And OBTW you have ignored BAG twice.
ἄγω from the BAG Greek lexicon. The sources from which the scholars derive their translation are highlighted in blue. Take note of the pre-Christian sources. I didn't see any historical sources listed in your Berean quote.
Your objection to "probably" in BAG "it is prob. better to supply Iesous" The verse has the pronoun "he" it is quite obvious that the subject is Jesus so many translations insert "Jesus" in lieu of the pronoun.
Note the same word you are arguing means only "lead" occurs in this vs.

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Yeshua HaDerekh, have you considered this Scripture in your thinking:

Numbers 9:13 ‘But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and has failed to perform the Passover, that same being shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of יהוה at its appointed time – that man bears his sin.

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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What about it?

Der Alter said:

I'm amazed, you act like this verse is set in concrete and hold up this one translation Berean as if it is the be all, end all authority carved in stone and Moses carried it down from Mt Sinai.
.....All of your objections are uninformed, specious and irrelevant. You pick out 1-2 words as if that is all the scholar said. How many credit hours of Greek did you say you had? Can you bring 340+ years of Greek scholarship to the discussion as I did? How many Greek scholars are employed at the Berean Society? Until you can show me some Greek scholars who translate at Berean it is meaningless to me as it would be to all the scholars I listed.
I went to their home page I could not find where any scholars are listed.
....."this expression cannot be found elsewhere" simply means it is a hapax legomai, it only occurs once in the NT, there is no other NT example to compare it to. This does not mean the word ἄγω does not occur, the exact phrase does not occur. There are a number of hapax legomai in the Bible.
There are many Greek and Hebrew idioms which cannot be neatly rendered in English.
And OBTW you have ignored BAG twice.
ἄγω from the BAG Greek lexicon. The sources from which the scholars derive their translation are highlighted in blue. Take note of the pre-Christian sources. I didn't see any historical sources listed in your Berean quote.
Your objection to "probably" in BAG "it is prob. better to supply Iesous" The verse has the pronoun "he" it is quite obvious that the subject is Jesus so many translations insert "Jesus" in lieu of the pronoun.

ἄγω 4. of time spend ( Eur. , Hdt. +; Aberciusinschr. 18; LXX) aj. th;n hJmevran th;n ojgdovhn eij" eujfrosuvnhn celebrate the eighth day as a festival of joy B 15:9 ( cf. Dit., Or. 90, 47 [196 BC ] a[gein ta;" hJmevra" tauvta" eJortav" ; PGoodspeed 3, 18 [III BC ] hJmevran kalh;n h[gagon). Perh. impers. trivthn tauvthn hJmevran a[gei this is the third day Lk 24:21 ; but, since this expr. cannot be found elsewhere, it is prob. better to supply Iesous`" as subj. (Bl-D. §129 app. ) lit. Jesus is spending the third day ( cf. Galen XIII 581 Kühn tetavrthn hJmevran a[gwn ajnwvduno" h\n, XI 65 K. povshn a[gei th;n ajpo; tou` nosei`n hJmevran oJ a[nqrwpo"). Of festivals celebrate, observe ( Hdt. +; Aesop , Fab. 389 P. genevqlion a[gein ; Jos. , Ant. 11, 77=IEsdr 4:50) genevsia Mt 14:6 v.l .; to; savbbaton PK 2 p. 14, 28; neomhnivan ibid. 1. 29. Of meetings (like Lat. ? ? ? ? ? ) sumbouvlion a[gein hold a meeting IPol 7:2. Pass. ajgorai`oi a[gontai ( s. ajgorai`o" 2) Ac 19:38 .

Acts 19:38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, [ἄγω] and there are deputies: let them implead one another.​

Note the same word you are arguing means only "lead" occurs in this vs.

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Shalom Der Alter, again, BAG wants to supply the name of "Iesous" in Luke 24:21, because this expression cannot be found elsewhere??? They are lost in their lofty suppositions. G71 means "to lead," like in Acts 19:38, the Law is "to lead" in matters where there is something to be settled. No other place in the Scriptures is G71 translated "open." Why do it here? G71 means "to lead," why confuse this? This is so simple, why make it difficult? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

What about it?

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Shalom Yeshua HaDerekh, is not the APPOINTED TIME that the Passover is to be OFFERED on the afternoon of the 14th day of the 1st month, NOT the 15th day of the 1st month. I just thought this might help you in your defense. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Der Alter, again, BAG wants to supply the name of "Iesous" in Luke 24:21, because this expression cannot be found elsewhere??? They are lost in their lofty suppositions. G71 means "to lead," like in Acts 19:38, the Law is "to lead" in matters where there is something to be settled. No other place in the Scriptures is G71 translated "open." Why do it here? G71 means "to lead," why confuse this? This is so simple, why make it difficult? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Language translation is never simple. A wise man once said, "All translators are traitors" (Tuscan proverb - "Traduttore, traditore")

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The seder was done reclining as free men and still is today.

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When did that change come into being?
Just curious.

prodromos said:

Language translation is never simple. A wise man once said, "All translators are traitors" (Tuscan proverb - "Traduttore, traditore")

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Shalom prodromos, would you not think that the Spirit of Truth could help in rendering a simple and proper translation? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. As an example: Are you familiar with these two Greek words and what they mean? G5485 & G5484

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom prodromos, would you not think that the Spirit of Truth could help in rendering a simple and proper translation? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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That would depend on the extent that those doing the translation are open to the Spirit of Truth. If they have struggled in putting to death the passions associated with the old man and worked hard at acquiring the gifts of the Holy Spirit then I imagine they would be directed more by the Holy Spirit. Do you claim to be such a person?

P.S. As an example: Are you familiar with these two Greek words and what they mean? G5485 & G5484

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If you actually posted greek words, I might be able to tell you. However I am on the road all day so can't get to any resources.

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Der Alter, here is an example of a biased translation, ALONG with their "literal" translation:

Berean Study Bible
But we were hoping He was the One who would redeem Israel. And besides all this, it is the third day since these things took place.

Berean Literal Bible
But we were hoping it is He who is about to redeem Israel. But indeed also with all these things, this brings the third day away from which these things came to pass.

If you notice, the Berean LITERAL Bible states, "this brings the third day away from," is a VERY close rendering to "it (today) leads the third day away from." Do you see the LITERAL? This is what the Greek is LITERALLY saying, why not believe it? The third day was being LED AWAY FROM when those things were done, not that the third day IS that day. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Well, whatever it is you wanted to explain, I cannot see any difference it makes to the plain old KJV, "Today ... the First Day-of-the-week ... is the third day since these things were done." It was not "the third day according to the Scriptures He ROSE"! (1Corinthians 15:3,4)

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

'behn-ha-arba-yim'? You mean "Beyn HaArbayim"? Between the erevs? Korban Tamid Shel Beyn HaArbaim was the daily afternoon sacrifice.

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Thanks.

prodromos said:

That would depend on the extent that those doing the translation are open to the Spirit of Truth. If they have struggled in putting to death the passions associated with the old man and worked hard at acquiring the gifts of the Holy Spirit then I imagine they would be directed more by the Holy Spirit. Do you claim to be such a person?

If you actually posted greek words, I might be able to tell you. However I am on the road all day so can't get to any resources.

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Shalom prodromos, yes, it is in my heart not to grieve The Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), for I do not want The Spirit taken from me (Psalms 51:11), as I know that obedience is what Elohim desires for Him to give us of His Spirit (Acts 5:32).

Here are the actual Greek words:

G5485 χάρις (kharis) - graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude); Etymology: from G5463; KJV: acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy). (Strong) 'G5485'

G5484 χάριν (kharin) - through favor of, i.e. on account of; Etymology: accusative case of G5485 as preposition; KJV: be-(for) cause of, for sake of, +...fore, X reproachfully. (Strong) 'G5484'

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Yeshua HaDerekh, is not the APPOINTED TIME that the Passover is to be OFFERED on the afternoon of the 14th day of the 1st month, NOT the 15th day of the 1st month. I just thought this might help you in your defense. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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That was what I said, but that does not matter to his theory.

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:

Well, whatever it is you wanted to explain, I cannot see any difference it makes to the plain old KJV, "Today ... the First Day-of-the-week ... is the third day since these things were done." It was not "the third day according to the Scriptures He ROSE"! (1Corinthians 15:3,4)

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Shalom Gerhard, I feel you probably have not followed very carefully (I know how busy you are with all of your posts). Luke 24:21 is a very difficult verse, when you look at the Greek. Translators have difficulty in understanding this verse and that is why they do have different "suggestions" in how to translate it.

At issue with this verse is the Greek word "apo" (G71) which means "to lead," and the translators (in the KJV) translated this Greek word to mean "is." There is a big difference in viewing this verse from, "Today LEADS the third day AWAY," versus "Today IS the third day." The LITERAL Greek is LEADS, not IS, and this is what gives them their difficulty. Blessings in the Name, ImAHebrew.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

That was what I said, but that does not matter to his theory.

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Shalom Yeshua HaDerekh, correct, but Numbers 9:13 is a good Scripture to have in your war chest. It SHOWS that the APPOINTED time is not something one can arbitrarily change, as do those who believe the APPOINTED time for offering the Passover was the afternoon of the 15th day of the 1st month. They are changing the APPOINTED time of The Offering, to accommodate their lack of understanding. The night of Yeshua's betrayal a NEW COVENANT was instituted, this was NOT according to the OLD COVENANT, for the Passover of the OLD COVENANT was/is on the afternoon of the 14th day of the 1st month. This Passover was something NEW, and the Messiah was having His Disciples BECOME ONE with Him, to where they ALSO could become part of the Passover Offering, to SHARE in His sufferings. Have you ever considered WHY "nothing could remain of the Passover," that it had to be TOTALLY burned (Exodus 12:10)? Did not Peter say this was happening (1 Peter 4:12-13). Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.