How should the Church recognise same-sex couples (or not)?

TX_Matt said:

I'm sorry, I can't help but notice you responded differently to me than my fellow Episcopalian, how come?

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I haven't read what your fellow Episcopalian said. How do we differ?

Radrook said:

I haven't read what your fellow Episcopalian said. How do we differ?

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You kind of rebutted what they said, and when I said the same thing you did not.

1 Or are you ignorant, brothers, (for I speak to those knowing Law), that the Law lords it over the man
for as long a time as he lives?
2 For the married woman was bound by Law to the living husband; but if the husband dies, she is
set free from the Law of the husband.
3 So then, if the husband is living, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's.
But if the husband dies, she is free from the Law, so as for her not to be an adulteress by becoming another man's.
4 So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to
become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin were working in our members through the Law for the bearing of fruit unto death.
Romans 7:1-5 (LITV)
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.
15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do.
16 But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
17 But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find.
19 For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do.
20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
21 I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:14-25 (LITV)

12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:12-14 (LITV)

TX_Matt said:

You kind of rebutted what they said, and when I said the same thing you did not.

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What did they say that I rebutted? I post so many comments that it all becomes a blur so I'm really not trying to be difficult.

Radrook said:

What did they say that I rebutted? I post so many comments that it all becomes a blur so I'm really not trying to be difficult.

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Radrook said:

Some homosexuals argue that Jesus and John were Romantically involved.

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Radrook said:

Yes, I know you don't since you are a Christian as stated in your description. Here is some relevant information.
How I Know David and Jonathan Weren’t Gay

This once focuses on refuting the arguments that attempt to depict them as homesexuals.
Was King David gay?

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I could be reading too much into things, I do that sometimes.

Raphael Jauregui said:

The OT clearly allowed polygamy and polygamy is not the union of "one man and one woman", the mantra for conservatives who are against gay marriage, and polygamy was definitely condoned.

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Try reading my post accurately. I did not write what you claim that I did.
In the end polygamy is still, heterosexual in nature and is not in violation of Genesis 1:26-28

As we look at the scriptures a polygamous relationship does not match the structure of marriage given by God from the Beginning.
We know from the beginning that God created man and woman and the institution of marriage between the two and for the to become as one. This creation was deemed by God to be "very good"

In the details of the creation of marriage. God created Eve from one rib from Adam. He also said let us create a helper for Adam...not helpers.

In Gen 2:24, God reveals the pattern of a man leaving his family to "be joined to his wife" not wives and they are described to become as "one flesh" which same sex can't do.

Jesus confirmed Gen 2 in the discussion He had with the Pharisees about divorce in Mark 10:1-12 and Matthew 19:1-12
He confirmed it by stating that marriage was on man for one woman.

Divorce and polygamy were regulated in the laws given to Mose, by God, to be given to the nation of Israel.
But polygamy was recorded even before that happened.

The first case of polygamy is in Gen 4:19-25 by Lamech, who was a descendant of Cain.

Before the flood there was a clear distortion of what God had intended for marriage and sex.
The flood was brought upon the earth to judge the sinfulness of mankind, including the sins committed by Lamech.

There are many mentions of polygamous relationships after the flood.
Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon.
However polygamous relationships are never mentioned in a positive light, indeed, the problems of such relationships are presented.
Consider the consequences.

Abraham - led to the bitterness between Sarah and Hagar, with the ultimate dismissal of Hagar and Ishmael...And they are still fighting over that today.

Jacob - Rachels jealousy of Leah and to Joseph being betrayed and sold by His half brothers.

David - Led to the rape of one of his daughters (Tamar) by her half brother (Ammon) and the subsequent murder of Ammon by Absalom (Tamars full bro)

Solomon - His wives led Him away from the Lord and to start worshipping a false god (1 Kings 11:`-8)

Just because the bible records polygamous relationships does not mean that God approves of such things.

Besides, using polygamy to argue for same sex marriage, isn't and argument for same sex marriage at all. It's an argument for man and woman marriage.

Polygamy and same sex marriage and not "very good" and not in anyway what God intended to be the structure of marriage.

Waggles said:

Grace and salvation are for sinners who repent from their dead works, undertake baptism and walk in
newness of life.

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That's more than justification by faith alone.

Discipleship comes after one is justified. And it's never perfect in this life. We see through a glass darkly now. Some of us have struggled a lot trying to reconcile our duty to love our neighbor with finding a church where everyone is welcome. Some of us have even had to make difficult choices in the process. We do not merely bow to political correctness (I'm one of the least politically correct Christians around). We follow Jesus, even if it means carrying a heavy cross.

Did Luther discover the supposed righteousness of fornicators and homosexuals when
reading the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures. NO
He taught the same gospel of repentance that Jesus and the Apostle did.

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Luther was a man of his time, and he is not some kind of pope.

Your Church of the politically correct but the spiritually dead is truly more a sign of how close we are
to the very last of days, then any other Bible prophecies on concerning Syria and Magog, etc.

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Before you throw around words like "spiritually dead", you should really give a lot of consideration to your own spiritual state. Are you without sin yourself? Do you have all the answers nailed down? You know exactly what God's will is, not only for your own life, but for everybody else's life? If so, you must be extraordinarily blessed, having a singular revelation that the rest of us lack.

My church is not perfect. I have never found a perfect church. But your words are uncharitable. People hear the Gospel every sunday at our church and lives are changed. My pastor is a kind-hearted man, one of the best Christians I have ever met. I have also experienced the Holy Spirit at this congregation, it is the one God guided me to.

Raphael Jauregui said:

In many churches and denominations, governing bodies are discussing how the Church should respond to the legalisation of same-sex marriages and/or civil unions. Some, like the Episcopal Church, United Church of Christ, and Presbyterian Church (USA) in the US, have responded by supporting same-sex marriage. Some, like the Church of England and Church in Wales, have responded by allowing clergy to enter in civil unions but not yet marriage. Still others, like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox churches, and conservative Evangelical churches, do not provide any recognition.

What do you think? Should the Church fully authorise same-sex marriages? maybe allow civil unions for the time being? Could the Church provide services of thanksgiving and prayers of support? At the centre of this debate and discussion, is, of course, the interpretation of Scripture.

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I think the churches should always be about supporting everyone. Do not resist evil (Matthew 5:39), BUT, churches should also be supporting everyone for the same goal, they're betterment, which is to put your personal lusts/desire second to ALL of gods will (Matthew 22:37). Some people I think get lost in this, and blame the church instead of themselves.

FireDragon76 said:

You know exactly what God's will is, not only for your own life, but for everybody else's life?

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To depart from evil. To repent and become a new creation in Christ Jesus. A new person.
To be separate from an in-Godly and wicked world. To be an ambassador to the gospel and Jesus.
To exercise discernment and judgment through the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts every true
believer of sin, and leads one into righteousness.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously,
and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour
Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a
peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:11-14
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom
of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from
the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:1-4

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom
of heaven. Matthew 5:
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added
unto you. Mathew 6:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away,
the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.
Acts 10:
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Acts 13:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins,
should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Peter 2:
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2 Peter 2:

8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose
the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.
1 John 3:

Radrook said:

Then you should consider writing your own version of the Bible where all the statements that you disagree with are erased. In fact, I was told that they have already done that.

However, such an activity isn't without considerable risk:



So deletion of the following might not be such a good idea:

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the bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. Leviticus condemns sexual acts but that is it. If you want to use Leviticus to condemn a minority then you need a really good reason why one rule in that chapter is binding on modern Christians when pretty much all the other rules in the book are ignored.

DarthNeo said:

God does not accept them, neither should "the church..."

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Jesus said to the crowds:
“Everything that the Father gives me will come to me,
and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
because I came down from heaven not to do my own will
but the will of the one who sent me.
And this is the will of the one who sent me,
that I should not lose anything of what he gave me,
but that I should raise it on the last day.
For this is the will of my Father,
that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him
may have eternal life,
and I shall raise him on the last day.” John 6:37-40

Edmond Smith said:

Is she wanting to marry another woman? No.
She is wanting to marry the man that God gave to her and her to him to wed. Just as the scriptures say. It's a terrible thing, not to be able to have a child due to an illness or any other reason. There are many children out there without a mom and dad, who will do well by adopting them into a God fearing and loving family.

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But they cannot procreate. Something you said they would have to do in order for their marriage to be "rightly seen as under God."

Does the African American lifestyle go completely against and contrary to Gods commandments?

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What is the African American lifestyle?

Edmond Smith said:

When a heterosexual couple cant or don't have a child that is their decision or because of an illness that circumvents them from having a child. Again, they are under the Will of God.

Same sex can't have children. Not naturally, nor without a surrogate. They are not under the will of God.

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This is what is known as special pleading, it is a logical fallacy. You have set up a rule to justify your view of a minority (specifically: gays can't be married because they can't have children) But you only want your rule apply to that minority and no one else.

Waggles said:

To depart from evil. To repent and become a new creation in Christ Jesus. A new person.
To be separate from an in-Godly and wicked world. To be an ambassador to the gospel and Jesus.

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Sounds like good advice.

To exercise discernment and judgment through the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts every true
believer of sin, and leads one into righteousness.

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Sure, but in this life we are both saint and sinner. Our "righteousness" meter is often misused, we use the Scriptures in self-serving ways. We overlook our eating of shellfish and condemn the gay couple down the road as living an "ungodly" lifestyle. This is not righteousness, this is self-righteousness.

Edmond Smith said:

As we look at the scriptures a polygamous relationship does not match the structure of marriage given by God from the Beginning.
We know from the beginning that God created man and woman and the institution of marriage between the two and for the to become as one. This creation was deemed by God to be "very good"

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How do we know that 'from the beginning' as you say.

Before the Law, these things were not layed out.

CrystalDragon said:

Notice God never specifically says it. People in the Bible do. God does specifically say things like "My thoughts are higher than your throughs", or women being counted as war spoils

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Leviticus 20 : 13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Please actually read the bible before you speak for the Lord.

Again read your bible about women as spoils of war...

Deuteronmony 21

Marrying a Captive Woman

10When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

FireDragon76 said:

We overlook our eating of shellfish and condemn the gay couple down the road as living an "ungodly" lifestyle.

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see post # 116

SilverBear said:

the bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. Leviticus condemns sexual acts but that is it. If you want to use Leviticus to condemn a minority then you need a really good reason why one rule in that chapter is binding on modern Christians when pretty much all the other rules in the book are ignored.

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Becoming a law unto ourselves isn't a wise thing to do.

Proverbs 14:12 ►
New International Version
There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

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Prov 3: 5. Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6. In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.…

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