What is stopping the current government from making abortion illegal in the USA?

sturgeonslawyer

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Regarding that passage in Exodus, it is a wonderful example of how the Bible does not, by itself, settle questions. Both sides are giving honest, clear interpretations of what the Bible says.

What is needed is an authority for the interpretation of the Bible. Fortunately, Christ established such an authority when He established the Catholic Church, which clearly teaches (as the Bible does only ambiguously) that abortion is a moral wrong.
 
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kiwimac

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Regarding that passage in Exodus, it is a wonderful example of how the Bible does not, by itself, settle questions. Both sides are giving honest, clear interpretations of what the Bible says.

What is needed is an authority for the interpretation of the Bible. Fortunately, Christ established such an authority when He established the Catholic Church, which clearly teaches (as the Bible does only ambiguously) that abortion is a moral wrong.
As an Old Catholic Priest, I disagree.
 
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The majority of Americans accept the institution of abortion, for starts.
Also, the Supreme Court is almost entirely made up of Jews and Catholics and so your best bet is a tied vote before an actual vote against it.

And to think this is a predominantly Conservative Protestant country- I'll tell you this: perhaps it's simply your own fault abortion is legal, because it's a crazy observation to witness.

Food for thought
 
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Episaw

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The promise to make abortion legal draws voters to the polls every time. If they actually made abortion illegal, they'd lose votes thr next election cycle.

The key to changing the law on abortion is the salami tactic...slice by slice. If you slice off a small part of it and people will see that it doesn't make a great deal of difference, it is easier to slice the next bit, until you shave it back to the original, to save the life of the mother or rape.
 
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Fantine

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Let's face it. The party in power can only boast of one issue on which they can claim the moral high ground. They have nothing positive to offer people of conscience, but they manage to survive because of abortion. If that issue were settled, how could they appeal to people if conscience? Taking healthcare away from 24 million? Sending children to bed hungry? Deporting immigrants, severing families? Republicans need abortion to remain legal so they can tell themselves they are 1% right on the issues.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Let's face it. The party in power can only boast of one issue on which they can claim the moral high ground. They have nothing positive to offer people of conscience, but they manage to survive because of abortion. If that issue were settled, how could they appeal to people if conscience? Taking healthcare away from 24 million? Sending children to bed hungry? Deporting immigrants, severing families? Republicans need abortion to remain legal so they can tell themselves they are 1% right on the issues.
How about all of those liberals who say they are not in favor of abortion call the conservative's bluff and simply agree to ban abortion. Then the conservatives would lose this issue, then every party can appeal to voters on all of the other issues. I'd be happy to see that happen. Would the party that was formerly in power ever agree to that? Or is abortion just too important to them that they would rather have that than all of those other things?
 
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SPF

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What I find the most tragic is that people can get so caught up in politics and their opinions that they completely miss the fact that abortion is a moral issue and if abortion is actually an immoral action, then our country is literally condoning a form of murder.

Yet, we get people that are so blinded and hardened by their political views that they face this topic with a cold and ignorant heart.
 
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RDKirk

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Fine, but that wasn't the question. The question was why doesn't the government just make it illegal, the answer is, the government can't, because the Supreme Court has ruled such laws unconstitutional. Someone needs to bring the matter before the Supreme Court, if it's to be reassessd.

Technically speaking, nothing prevents the Congress and the President from passing such a law again.

It would certainly be taken back to court and eventually the Supreme Court would wind up ruling on it again. Consider Plessy v Ferguson compared to Brown v Topeka Board of Education.
 
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RDKirk

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What I find the most tragic is that people can get so caught up in politics and their opinions that they completely miss the fact that abortion is a moral issue and if abortion is actually an immoral action, then our country is literally condoning a form of murder.

Yet, we get people that are so blinded and hardened by their political views that they face this topic with a cold and ignorant heart.

The moral dichotomy is that there are numerous moral issues to consider, and there isn't only one way to address many of them.

There is not, for instance, only a single way to address abortion. Consider: Seventy percent of abortions in America are by women professing to be Christians. If Christians alone eschewed abortion, the rate would drop 70%.

So why can't the Body of Christ convince its own members that abortion is wrong regardless of the law?
 
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Which pro-life justice is that? You mean Gorsuch, who said that Roe is "the law of the land?"
There is a good reason for him to say that--like it or not as of now Roe (as modified by later cases) is "the law of the land."
 
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Vicomte13

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Let's face it. The party in power can only boast of one issue on which they can claim the moral high ground. They have nothing positive to offer people of conscience, but they manage to survive because of abortion. If that issue were settled, how could they appeal to people if conscience? Taking healthcare away from 24 million? Sending children to bed hungry? Deporting immigrants, severing families? Republicans need abortion to remain legal so they can tell themselves they are 1% right on the issues.

And they should not boast, for the Republican Party has continuously controlled the Supreme Court since 1969, with a brief 6-month hiatus that was a tied court from the death of Scalia until Gorsuch took the bench. It was a Republican Supreme Court that gave us Roe. A Republican Supreme Court that gave us Casey. A Republican President who, as governor of California, signed the bill legalizing abortion out there. Republicans have put NINE justices on the Supreme Court since Roe, NINE, and yet they never manage to install a pro-life majority.

This is because the Republicans are liars. They PRETEND to be pro-life, in order to dupe the rank and file Christian Republican voters. But they never use their power to actually strike down Roe. They never had any intention of doing so. It's always tax cuts and deregulation and war and defense contracts. But Roe? They've always had the power to strike it down. They haven't. Because they don't want to.
 
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chevyontheriver

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And they should not boast, for the Republican Party has continuously controlled the Supreme Court since 1969, with a brief 6-month hiatus that was a tied court from the death of Scalia until Gorsuch took the bench. It was a Republican Supreme Court that gave us Roe. A Republican Supreme Court that gave us Casey. A Republican President who, as governor of California, signed the bill legalizing abortion out there. Republicans have put NINE justices on the Supreme Court since Roe, NINE, and yet they never manage to install a pro-life majority.

This is because the Republicans are liars. They PRETEND to be pro-life, in order to dupe the rank and file Christian Republican voters. But they never use their power to actually strike down Roe. They never had any intention of doing so. It's always tax cuts and deregulation and war and defense contracts. But Roe? They've always had the power to strike it down. They haven't. Because they don't want to.
As long as the Republicans think they can string us along to reliably vote for them they have no interest in actually finally definitively solving the abortion issue. They keep it as the carrot just out of reach. Now there are some good pro-life Republican politicians, and almost no good pro-life Democratic politicians, but the power elites of the Republican party just want our votes election after election. Best way to keep those votes is to stretch the issue out for decades. Get us to support their candidates who talk a good talk but do next to nothing. Because if they did something would we support all of the other junk? Would they ever win again?
 
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Vicomte13

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Because if they did something would we support all of the other junk? Would they ever win again?

As it is it looks like their brazen lies on another issue is going to torpedo them. For seven years, in four election cycles, they campaigned endlessly on repealing Obamacare. First, it was that they could do nothing without the Congress. Then they got the House and the Senate, but they could nothing without the White House. Then they got the White House, and the Congress, and the Supreme Court. Now, they can't do anything without 60 votes in the Senate. (Yes they can. With 50 votes they can kill the filibuster rule.) They have 35 state houses and governorships. They have the numbers to call a Constitutional Convention of the States if they wanted to.

They certainly have the power to repeal Obamacare, if they wanted to.

They're not repealing Obamacare, because they don't want to.

Trouble is, they have campaigned on doing just that for seven years. There's nowhere for them to hide.

Now, it's true that, with continuous control of the Supreme Court since 1969, they did not have put Roe in place in the first place, they did not have to extend it with Casey, and they could, at any time, strike it all down, but they don't. However, the operations of the courts are esoteric to most people. Most do not realize that judges are appointed partisans. Democrat judges certainly know their role and act the part of partisan stalwarts. Republican judges do too, and they put Roe in place and extended it with Casey. And they put Kelo in place. But the people, particularly Republican people, choose to mask their eyes and refuse to acknowledge that the Supreme Court is a political body.

With Obamacare, though, it's all out in the open: Congress itself - controlled by the Republicans - has the power to repeal it (President Trump would certainly sign that bill). They're not going to. They campaigned on repealing it, and won three federal elections on the promise to do so. And they're not going to do it.

That will result in their getting wiped out in the next election. If the Republicans don't repeal Obamacare, Trump will be impeached. He'll be impeached because the Republicans will lose Congress in 2018 as a result: the whole country will defect from the Republicans over this betrayal. They'll be finished. The Democrats have promised to impeach Trump, and Democrats actually do what they say they are going to do.

They lose elections to Republicans because the public for the most part doesn't WANT what the Democrats say they're going to do, but when the Republicans let Obamacare stand and don't repeal it, it's over: the Republicans will be voted out of office, the Democrats will surge to power, and the Democrats will do what they promised, which is impeach Trump (though they won't be able to remove him).

Republicans are inveterate liars. They can't help it, because if they campaigned on their real permanent agenda (tax breaks for the super rich, no estate tax, general deregulation, free trade, open borders for cheap exploitable labor, and a massive permanent arms buildup and imperial stretch) they would not win.
 
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Vicomte13

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As long as the Republicans think they can string us along to reliably vote for them they have no interest in actually finally definitively solving the abortion issue. They keep it as the carrot just out of reach. Now there are some good pro-life Republican politicians, and almost no good pro-life Democratic politicians, but the power elites of the Republican party just want our votes election after election. Best way to keep those votes is to stretch the issue out for decades. Get us to support their candidates who talk a good talk but do next to nothing. Because if they did something would we support all of the other junk? Would they ever win again?

What IS the solution on the abortion issue anyway?

If we outlaw it, we had better be prepared to treble the social welfare state, because we will have 1.75 million new welfare babies every year, year after year, all of whom have to be clothed, fed, housed, educated and provided medical care. And then, eventually, they have to have jobs. There's your cheap exploitable labor pool, I guess: close the borders.

And there is, also, a federal income tax rate of 50%, plus another 7% of state taxes, to pay for all of that. So, how many Christian Republicans are in for a 57% average tax rate? Because that's what outlawing abortion will cost.

Me? I'm for that, actually. But Republicans will never be willing to accept a social welfare superstate in order to pay for the inevitable results of banning abortion.

What the Republican religious right proposes is to ban abortion and simply impose the burden of "Personal Responsibility" on the irresponsible mothers. Which means, of course, impose starvation and death on a half-million babies a year, whose mothers can't or won't do what must be done.

Yeah, when reality meets rhetoric, it's pretty ugly. Also, please note, the ranks of the handicapped will burgeon. Today, most severely handicapped babies are aborted in the womb. Outlaw abortion, and the requirement for Medicaid for a tripling or quadrupling of the severely handicapped will be required. Unless of course we're willing to force them to be born only to watch them die.

That is no more Christian than abortion.
In for a penny, in for a pound.

If I were King, I would outlaw abortion and impose the taxes to fully pay the social costs. I'd also understand that the costs were so crippling that overseas military deployment was no longer possible, and that the armed forces would have to be slashed by 50%, at least, just to free up the money necessary to support the burgeoning population of poor and sick people.

Remember, the "no abortion" model already exists: in Latin America, in Muslim Africa and in the Muslim Middle East. Where there is oil wealth, the people live tolerably well with massive social welfare. Where there isn't...well...the Muslim African countries have the lowest life spans in the world.

Latin America has higher life spans. There, the women take things into their own hands, government is lax and weak, and illegal abortion is de rigeur, so abortion is illegal, the poor population is bigger, but the abortion rate is still quite substantial, because people break the law.

Pick your poison.

And don't pretend there's a good solution. They all suck.
 
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chevyontheriver

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As it is it looks like their brazen lies on another issue is going to torpedo them. For seven years, in four election cycles, they campaigned endlessly on repealing Obamacare. First, it was that they could do nothing without the Congress. Then they got the House and the Senate, but they could nothing without the White House. Then they got the White House, and the Congress, and the Supreme Court. Now, they can't do anything without 60 votes in the Senate. (Yes they can. With 50 votes they can kill the filibuster rule.) They have 35 state houses and governorships. They have the numbers to call a Constitutional Convention of the States if they wanted to.

They certainly have the power to repeal Obamacare, if they wanted to.

They're not repealing Obamacare, because they don't want to.

Trouble is, they have campaigned on doing just that for seven years. There's nowhere for them to hide.

Now, it's true that, with continuous control of the Supreme Court since 1969, they did not have put Roe in place in the first place, they did not have to extend it with Casey, and they could, at any time, strike it all down, but they don't. However, the operations of the courts are esoteric to most people. Most do not realize that judges are appointed partisans. Democrat judges certainly know their role and act the part of partisan stalwarts. Republican judges do too, and they put Roe in place and extended it with Casey. And they put Kelo in place. But the people, particularly Republican people, choose to mask their eyes and refuse to acknowledge that the Supreme Court is a political body.

With Obamacare, though, it's all out in the open: Congress itself - controlled by the Republicans - has the power to repeal it (President Trump would certainly sign that bill). They're not going to. They campaigned on repealing it, and won three federal elections on the promise to do so. And they're not going to do it.

That will result in their getting wiped out in the next election. If the Republicans don't repeal Obamacare, Trump will be impeached. He'll be impeached because the Republicans will lose Congress in 2018 as a result: the whole country will defect from the Republicans over this betrayal. They'll be finished. The Democrats have promised to impeach Trump, and Democrats actually do what they say they are going to do.

They lose elections to Republicans because the public for the most part doesn't WANT what the Democrats say they're going to do, but when the Republicans let Obamacare stand and don't repeal it, it's over: the Republicans will be voted out of office, the Democrats will surge to power, and the Democrats will do what they promised, which is impeach Trump (though they won't be able to remove him).

Republicans are inveterate liars. They can't help it, because if they campaigned on their real permanent agenda (tax breaks for the super rich, no estate tax, general deregulation, free trade, open borders for cheap exploitable labor, and a massive permanent arms buildup and imperial stretch) they would not win.
I expect that Republican dithering over repealing Obamacare will indeed cost them. They deserve it to cost them. But the Democrats are also phenomenally weak. It's third party time. Rational or wacko, dilettante or serious, third parties are going to be HUUUGE. And I've given up on the Republicans, even though I know a few worthy lower level officeholders. Looking at the American Solidarity Party to see if it's got the stuff to be anything big. It's got rational positions.
 
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Vicomte13

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I expect that Republican dithering over repealing Obamacare will indeed cost them. They deserve it to cost them. But the Democrats are also phenomenally weak. It's third party time. Rational or wacko, dilettante or serious, third parties are going to be HUUUGE. And I've given up on the Republicans, even though I know a few worthy lower level officeholders. Looking at the American Solidarity Party to see if it's got the stuff to be anything big. It's got rational positions.
If they do manage to repeal Obamacare, I'll limp forward to vote for them again. I really despise that party. But if they advance the ball on a few things I want I will hate them and grant them another short reprieve. If they don't, I'll probably just stay home. Democrats are babykillers. Not going to vote for them. I live in Connecticut, so my vote's a dead letter anyway.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Forgive me, for joining the conversation late and not reading the nearly 200 posts preceding this one. I will ask the unanswered question I asked in a related thread. If abortion is made illegal again, what would you deem an appropriate consequence for those involved? The child bearer? The provider?

America's already incarcerates more persons per capita than most other nations. It seems that "lock 'em up" is all we know to do with people. What would you do to these violators and for how long?
 
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Forgive me, for joining the conversation late and not reading the nearly 200 posts preceding this one. I will ask the unanswered question I asked in a related thread. If abortion is made illegal again, what would you deem an appropriate consequence for those involved? The child bearer? The provider?

America's already incarcerates more persons per capita than most other nations. It seems that "lock 'em up" is all we know to do with people. What would you do to these violators and for how long?
But remember that overturning Roe wont necessarily make abortion illegal. It simply returns control to the states. Some states will undoubtably outlaw abortion--hopefully allowing exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother. However it will remain legal in other states.
 
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The key to changing the law on abortion is the salami tactic...slice by slice. If you slice off a small part of it and people will see that it doesn't make a great deal of difference, it is easier to slice the next bit, until you shave it back to the original, to save the life of the mother or rape.
Except that if we give abortion in America the status it had until the early 1800's, it was legal until the time of quickening.
 
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