Muslims, Quran unaltered? Then read it ....

sijo · May 17, 2004

THE BEGINNING OF THE QURAN

Revelations were given to Muhammad from around 610 AD. until shortly before his death in 632 AD. They lasted about 23 years. ("'Ulum Al-Quran", by Ahmad von Denffer, 1985, pages 54-55)

MEMORIZATION OF THE QURAN

During the time revelations were received by the prophet of Islam, the Muslims were encouraged to memorize them: "Narrated Uthman bin Affan: The prophet said: 'The most superior among you are those who learn the Quran and teach it.'" (Bukhari, VI, No. 546, all of Bukhari's English translations in this comparison are taken from: "The translation of the meaning of Sahih al-Bukhari", 9 volumes, by Khan Muhammad Mushin, Istanbul, 1978).

"Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: Allah's Apostle said to me: 'Recite for me.' I said: 'Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?' He said: 'I like to hear from others'..." (Bukhari, VI, No.106)

FIRST WRITTEN ACCOUNTS OF THE QURAN

The revelations Muhammad received were written down during his lifetime on different writing materials. However, they were not bound into one single book. This is confirmed by a report that says "when people came to Medina to learn about Islam, they were provided with copies of the chapters of the Quran, to read and learn them by heart." ("Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbih," by Hamidullah, 1979, p.64)

MAINLY ORAL TRANSMISSION OF THE QURAN FOR 43 YEARS

The revelations Muhammad received were passed on mainly orally for 43 years from 610 AD until 653 AD. At that time the Quran was officially written under the command of Uthman. During the first 22 years of this period the prophet of Islam was still alive. In case of doubt his followers could have consulted him immediately. Many of them also memorized the revelations under his personal guidance. More than 20 of those are mentioned by name in the Hadith. Among them were well know persons, such as Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa and Umm Salama. ("Itqan" by Suyuti, I, p.124) Others went over the contents of the Quran with the prophet before his death. "Narrated Qatada: I asked Anas bin Malik: 'Who collected the Quran at the time of the prophet?' He replied, 'Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubai bin Ka'b, Muadh bin Jabal, Zaid bin Thabit and Abu Zaid.'" (Bukhari, VI, No.525). After the prophet's death they could be consulted and correct each other if there was any dispute that arose. Muslims, look! How much persons had taken part in writing Quran.

THE MAN WHO WROTE DOWN THE FIRST OFFICIAL COPY OF THE QURAN

The revelations given to Muhammad were not written down by himself: "Narrated al Bara: There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (Surah 4, Nisaa, verse 95). The prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and the scapula bone.' Then he said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...'" (Bukhari,VI, No.512)

The Quran was written down during the prophets lifetime but only on loose pieces of different material. When at the battle of Yamama in 633 AD, a good number of Muslims were killed and it was feared that part of the revelations might be lost. Therefore, Abu Bakr, the first Muslim leader after Muhammad's death, asked Zaid ibn Thabit to collect all the different writing materials on which the Quran was written down. This was his reaction: "...By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Quran. I said to both of them, 'How dare you do what the prophet has not done?' Abu Bakr said, 'By Allah, it's a good thing'... So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men. I found with Khuzaima two verses of Surah Tauba which I had not found with anybody else..." (Bukhari,VI, No.201)

Muslims, this is the history and authenticity of Quran in your hands. Even though those verses had only been found with one person and only one man, who had the sole responsibility to collect the first official Quran, Muslims believe it contained all the revelations given to their prophet without alteration. CERTAINLY IMPOSSIBLE!

VARIANT READINGS IN THE QURAN

A number of Hadiths mentioned that several of Muhammad's companions wrote down their own collections of the revelations. ("Itqan I" by Suyuti, p.62)

The most well known among them are: Ibn Masud He claimed to have learned some seventy Surahs directly from the prophet. Muhammad told other people to learn the Quran from him and three others. (Bukhari, 6, No.521). However, Surah 1, 113 and 114 were missing in his collection. (Fihrist, I, pages 53-57).

Ubay bin Kab - The prophet's secretary in Medina. He is one of the other three mentioned above whom the prophet recommended as a teacher of the Quran. His collection contained two additional Surahs and an otherwise unknown verse ("Itqan I" by Suyuti, p.65; "Masahif" by Ibn Abi Dawud, pages 180-181, also "Geschichte des Quran's" by Noeldeke, pages 33-38) His text was widely used in Syria before the appearance of Uthman's text.

Abu Musa - His collection was used by the people of Basra. It was identical with the material of Ubai bin Kab. These different collections of the Quran contained also many variant readings. More than 1700 are attributed to Ibn Masud alone ("Materials for the history of the text of the Quran" by A. Jeffry, 1937).

Muhammad Hamidullah divides them into four classes in the introduction to his French translation of the Quran (p.XXXIII):

A) Variants caused by a copy mistake. They can be detected easily by comparing with other manuscripts.

B) Variant readings caused by accidentally adopting marginal notes into the text of the Quran.

C) Variations caused by Muhammad's permission to recite the revelations in different dialects.

D) Variations caused by the fact that the Quran was copied without vowel marks and without dots to distinguish between different letters that were written in the same way. (Only 15 different forms of letters present 28 letters)

Most of the variant readings have very serious significance with regard to the meaning of the text. Some created big problems, such as: Surah 5, Maida, verse 63 19 alternate readings have been identified, some of which change the actual meaning of the verse. 14 changes were caused by changing the vowel combinations. In the remaining 5 cases one or two consonants were added. (Ibid, by A. Jeffery, pages 39, 129, 198, 216, 237)

Surah 33, Alizab, verse 6 "The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers..."

"...In some Qiraats, like that of Ubai ibn Kab, occur also the word " and he is a father to them..." ("The Holy Quran" by A. Yusuf Ali, 1975, note 3674)

Only reports in the hadith about these variants have survived. But none of them changes any doctrine of the Quran in the slightest way.

Contd..

sijo · May 17, 2004

OLDEST COPY OF THE QURAN AS KNOWN TODAY

The many variant readings caused Muslim soldiers from Iraq who followed Ibn Masud's collection, and soldiers of Syria who took Ubay's collection to be the correct one, to accuse each other of lying!

Uthman's reaction in 653 AD is recorded in the following Hadith: "Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman, Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Quran was revealed in their tongue.' They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burned. Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Surah 33, Alizab, (verse 23) was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari...'" (Bukhari, VI, No.510).

In spite of the radical measures taken there still is a verse missing in today's Quran: "Abdullah bin Abbas reported that Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allahs messenger and said: 'Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it...I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and this go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah...'" (Bukhari, VIII, No.816, Muslim, III, No. 4194).

The verse can not have been abrogated because the messenger of Islam was the only one who was authorized to do so. By the time the problem arose he was dead. The only reference found in today's Quran reads: "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Surah 24, Nur, verse 2) ????

Perhaps for reasons such as this Ibn Masud opposed the new official version of the Quran with the following words:

"The Prophet taught me to recite 70 Surahs which I had mastered before Zaid had even become a Muslim. How can you order me to recite the readings of Zaid, when I recited from the very mouth of the Prophet some 70 Surahs? Am I to abandon what I acquired from the very lips of the Prophet?" ("Masahif" by Ibn Abi Dawud).

After having studied the early surviving Quran manuscripts very thoroughly John Gilchrist states: "The oldest manuscripts of the Quran still in existence date from not earlier than about one hundred years after Muhammdad's death." ("Jam' Al-Qur'an", page 153)!!!!

He comes to this conclusion because two of the oldest manuscripts, the Samarqand and Topkapi codices are both written in the Kufic script. It "can generally be dated from the late eight century depending on the extent of development in the character of the script in each case." (Ibid. page 146)

Muslims, would you argue again that your quran is unaltered, unchanged and pristine?

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished. And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared and ready, like a bride dressed to meet her husband Revelation 21: 1-2.

A new heaven and a new earth All living creatures praising the holy name of Lord Jesus Christ ..

This is the history of your quran which you claims the original copy of which is with Allah. NEVER, the original copy is in the hands of your ancestors!! It has been passed through the memories and hands of a number of illiterate and unschooled followers of Mohamed. Is there no possibility of Quran getting altered by some fanatic followers of Mohd to demean Lord Jesus Christ from Kalimathullah to a cheap prophet named Isa, when they faced furious attack from local Christians!! Decide yourself.

Now Muslims, stop boasting of your Quran. I have to ask you, take a copy of my mail and circulate it. Get the opinion of yourimams, mullahs and scholars like Ahmed Deedat and Hasan Baagil. Ask them to raise a single point to repudiate my claims.

Dear Christians, please be informed what you had read is the result of my hardwork a hard work ONLY to keep my Christian brothers and sisters from the aggression of Islam. This is for defending your true faith. Take a copy of it and circulate it. Enjoy this task as a missionary endeavour. No doubt, Lord Jesus Christ would reward you on the Judgment Day. A copy of this mail is enough to close the mouth of Muslims coming to argue with you about the authenticity of their quran. No need of hour-long arguments. You could save your time and sustain your Christian brethren in the true and vibrant faith in Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Prince of Peace.

Ye Muslims, people of quran, your fate is definite here

I assure you that whoever declares publicly that he belongs to me, the Son of Man will do the same for him before the angels of God. But whoever rejects me publicly, the Son of Man will also reject him before the angels of God Luke 12: 8-9.

Maranatha, Lord Jesus, please come fast

Sijo.

Arthra · May 17, 2004

Well congratulations Sijo ...you may have a thread here that will pass muster with the moderators and be acceptable topic compared with your previous efforts!

As to the Qur'an though... It was received in revelation by Prophet Muhammad during His lifetime and regularly recited by His Companions and others ....Every year around Ramadan it was recited in it's entirety up to that point.

So there probably was no variation in the actual words revealed. What occurred later was the gathering of various revelations and setting them down in a text that was accepted by all Moslems with a very short period of time...Compare this with how long it took Christianity to agree on the canon of scripture.

Ali and others who were among the first to believe in Prophet Muhammad accepted the Qur'an as it was presented and it has not been changed to this day. So that is enough for me. Qur'an is an authentic repository of the Word of God.

- Art :wave:

sijo · May 17, 2004

Arthra said:
Well congratulations Sijo ...you may have a thread here that will pass muster with the moderators and be acceptable topic compared with your previous efforts!

As to the Qur'an though... It was received in revelation by Prophet Muhammad during His lifetime and regularly recited by His Companions and others ....Every year around Ramadan it was recited in it's entirety up to that point.

So there probably was no variation in the actual words revealed. What occurred later was the gathering of various revelations and setting them down in a text that was accepted by all Moslems with a very short period of time...Compare this with how long it took Christianity to agree on the canon of scripture.

Ali and others who were among the first to believe in Prophet Muhammad accepted the Qur'an as it was presented and it has not been changed to this day. So that is enough for me. Qur'an is an authentic repository of the Word of God.

- Art

Art,

Yours' a highly prejudiced opinion. That may be enough for you...... But of course, not enough for thinking human beings as the matter of faith is a play with their heavenly life. I watch your postings carefully. You are trying to compromise between all faiths and very eager to get the applaud of all others. I'm rather afraid, how simply you came to a conclusion that "So there probably was no variation in the actual words revealed". "PROBABLY" - could you explain the meaning of this phrase in a wider perspective?

YES, all Muslims have only a probable expectation in Eternal Life. No guarantee at all. Please read my post carefully. When these unlettered and unschooled followers of Mohamed kept the "Revelation of God" in their memory for around 44 years and wrote it by different persons and compiled thereafter; and if you argue that they were enough for you, then -

I have no answer; let God the Almighty answer to your rhetoric .........

"you may have a thread here that will pass muster with the moderators and be acceptable topic compared with your previous efforts!" -

Art, don't simply throw a stone into the air. I agree, the words are harsh. Did I collect anything out of point. Was there any quotes out of Quran and Hadiths? Was there any quotes out of context? If webmaster warned me, that is his decency. But look at the attitude of Muslims to state that Bible was altered and rejected crucifixion (which was carried out in public) in contrary to their "prophet" received revelation in secret from a so-called "Gabriel". The existence of this guy is yet to finalise. That means, muslim faith is based upon chance - 50% chance for Gabriel; and 50% chance for Satan masqueraded as Gabriel. Would you deny it?

But see, what about Jesus? I look quran ONLY to further strengthen my faith:

1. There were people argued that Jesus was a myth. Quran says Jesus existed.
2. Some say Jesus was only a good teacher. Quran says Jesus was a Word from God (Kalimathullah).
3. Some say Jesus was born from Mary who became pregnant before marriage. So if a woman became pregnant before marriage, she would be called as ................. NO. Quran says about the divine birth of Jesus.
4. I heard some hard line Hindus in my country said Jesus was a homosexual. NO. Quran said Jesus was sinless AT BIRTH AND IN LIFE.
5. Some said Jesus was an ordinary man who died in old age. Quran said Jesus is still alive.
6. Now a new book called "Davinci Code" stated that Jesus got married to Mary Magdelene and lived in France. I had read a book called "Jesus in Kashmir" stating that Jesus who escaped crucifixion came to Kashmir and lived there till he died. NO. Quran says Jesus is stilll alive and expecting to come to fight with anti-Christ (Dajjal) - note an important point, the name of Satan who is opposing God is anti Christ, not anti allah.
7. Some insulted about the stuff in the Bible about the miracles of Jesus. Quran admitted everything and more than in Bible.
8. I heard some calling Mother Mary as .............. a lady who became pregnant before marriage. Quran says she is a lady in high honor.

Art, now I am satisfied. Even if quran rejects crucifixion, the public account is enough for me. Further, I feel strong faith in the martyrship of Apostles of Jesus. All apostles except John ACCEPTED martyrship. A man may spread rumours / heresays / concocted lie. But I'm sure, all persons with common sense would believe when his life would be in danger and on getting invited mandatorily to be a martyr, he would DEFINITELY give up that concocted lie he preached. But Apostles of Christ, all accepted martyrship after imprisonment for months. So I'm sure - they had seen and experienced something special!!

Read through my mail regarding the life of Mohamed. Forget the words. Show me anything out of Quran and Hadith. Show me anything immoral. So it is correct. And I posted a new thread, Mohd must not be prophet of God. Go through it. And decide.

Sijo.

Mr.Pious · May 17, 2004

Muslims, Quran unaltered? Then read it ....

Isn't the Bible supposed to be altered as well?

sijo · May 18, 2004

Mr.Pious said:
Isn't the Bible supposed to be altered as well?

Mr. Pious, a genuine question. 100 marks to you.
Read the answer in a new thread, "Muslims, Bible altered? please read it".
Please don't miss another thread "Muslim scholars on authenticity of Bible".
sijo.

Havoc · May 18, 2004

sijo said:
Art,

Yours' a highly prejudiced opinion.

And the irony meter goes offfffff the scale.

Alexei · May 19, 2004

Here's what the NON-MUSLIMS said about the Noble Qur'an:

The famous Orientalist Caroness Margaret Von Strein wrote:
Though all the Divine scriptures were revealed by God yet the Qur'an is the only scripture which has not undergone even the slightest alteration and is safe in its original form

Hortwig Horchfeld wrote in his book entitled "New Researches into the Composition and Exegeses of the Quran":
The research workers of the modern age agree on the point that the present version of the Qur'an is the exact copy if the original script which was written by Zaid Bin Sabit as its text is exactly the same as was given by Muhammed.

It is stated in the Encyclopedia Britannica, under the heading Qur'an:
All efforts of the European research workers to prove later additions in the Quranic text have proved absolutely futile

Sir William Muir writes in his book entitled "life of Muhammad":
Otherwise all sorts of external and internal evidence in there to prove that we have exactly the same Qur'anic text which Muhammed gave (to his followers) and used himself.

John Burton said:
The single vigorous Qur'an text that throughout the ages has successfully withstood the assaults of both the exegetes and the usulis, stoutly retaining its textual identity in the face of countless attempts to insinuate interpolations through exploitation of the alleged codex of this or that Companion, is none other than the unique text of the revelations whose existence all their tricks betoken, the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet... (Collection of the Qur'an, 1977).

R. Bosworth Smith said:
In the Koran we have, beyond doubt, the exact words of Muhammad without subtraction and without addition (Muhammad and Muhammadanism, 1874, p. 21)

sijo · May 19, 2004

You relied on recent authors. Then what about my quotes in the main post:

1) I found with Khuzaima two verses of Surah Tauba which I had not found with anybody else..." (Bukhari,VI, No.201)

2) The most well known among them are: Ibn Masud He claimed to have learned some seventy Surahs directly from the prophet. Muhammad told other people to learn the Quran from him and three others. (Bukhari, 6, No.521). However, Surah 1, 113 and 114 were missing in his collection. (Fihrist, I, pages 53-57).

3) His collection contained two additional Surahs and an otherwise unknown verse ("Itqan I" by Suyuti, p.65; "Masahif" by Ibn Abi Dawud, pages 180-181, also "Geschichte des Quran's" by Noeldeke, pages 33-38) His text was widely used in Syria before the appearance of Uthman's text.

4) These different collections of the Quran contained also many variant readings. More than 1700 are attributed to Ibn Masud alone ("Materials for the history of the text of the Quran" by A. Jeffry, 1937).

5) The many variant readings caused Muslim soldiers from Iraq who followed Ibn Masud's collection, and soldiers of Syria who took Ubay's collection to be the correct one, to accuse each other of lying!

6) Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burned!

POOF!!! Wonderful!! Really preserved!! Burn the original texts and insert new one! MY GOD!

7) Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Surah 33, Alizab, (verse 23) was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari...'" (Bukhari, VI, No.510).

8) In spite of the radical measures taken there still is a verse missing in today's Quran: "Abdullah bin Abbas reported that Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allahs messenger and said: 'Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it...I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and this go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah...'" (Bukhari, VIII, No.816, Muslim, III, No. 4194).

The verse cannot have been abrogated because the messenger of Islam was the only one who was authorized to do so. By the time the problem arose he was dead. The only reference found in today's Quran reads: "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Surah 24, Nur, verse 2) ????

First of all, you inform me, whether I need to believe your Hadiths or your favorite authors. You muslims, please make a consensus and inform us so that we could also know the "truth".

Please stop your childish murmuring, yar. And be straight forward with answers. On reading your "answers", we should at least "feel" that you are answering to the question.

Thanx,

sijo.

Alexei · May 19, 2004

You relied on recent authors. Then what about my quotes in the main post:

1) I found with Khuzaima two verses of Surah Tauba which I had not found with anybody else..." (Bukhari,VI, No.201)

2) The most well known among them are: Ibn Masud He claimed to have learned some seventy Surahs directly from the prophet. Muhammad told other people to learn the Quran from him and three others. (Bukhari, 6, No.521). However, Surah 1, 113 and 114 were missing in his collection. (Fihrist, I, pages 53-57).

3) His collection contained two additional Surahs and an otherwise unknown verse ("Itqan I" by Suyuti, p.65; "Masahif" by Ibn Abi Dawud, pages 180-181, also "Geschichte des Quran's" by Noeldeke, pages 33-38) His text was widely used in Syria before the appearance of Uthman's text.

4) These different collections of the Quran contained also many variant readings. More than 1700 are attributed to Ibn Masud alone ("Materials for the history of the text of the Quran" by A. Jeffry, 1937).

5) The many variant readings caused Muslim soldiers from Iraq who followed Ibn Masud's collection, and soldiers of Syria who took Ubay's collection to be the correct one, to accuse each other of lying!

6) Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burned!

POOF!!! Wonderful!! Really preserved!! Burn the original texts and insert new one! MY GOD!

7) Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Surah 33, Alizab, (verse 23) was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari...'" (Bukhari, VI, No.510).

8) In spite of the radical measures taken there still is a verse missing in today's Quran: "Abdullah bin Abbas reported that Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allahs messenger and said: 'Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it...I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and this go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah...'" (Bukhari, VIII, No.816, Muslim, III, No. 4194).

The verse cannot have been abrogated because the messenger of Islam was the only one who was authorized to do so. By the time the problem arose he was dead. The only reference found in today's Quran reads: "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Surah 24, Nur, verse 2) ????

First of all, you inform me, whether I need to believe your Hadiths or your favorite authors. You muslims, please make a consensus and inform us so that we could also know the "truth".

Please stop your childish murmuring, yar. And be straight forward with answers. On reading your "answers", we should at least "feel" that you are answering to the question.

he he he
Look at my answers here and try to read between the lines:
http://www.christianforum.com/t71269&page=3
http://members.lycos.co.uk/christiansandmuslims/viewtopic.php?t=26

Kas · May 19, 2004

I just want to say, that I have seen with my own two eyes two different versions of the Quran!

That settles the argument for me!

Kas.

Kas · May 19, 2004

Havoc said:
And the irony meter goes offfffff the scale.

And the double irony meter goes offf the scale!!

Kas.

saharali19 · May 4, 2017

the prophet's way of reading, has reached us by his companions, and then the followers of the companions learn quran

GeorgeTwo · May 6, 2017

saharali19 said:
the prophet's way of reading, has reached us by his companions, and then the followers of the companions learn quran

’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,

"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).

A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,

"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).

The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,

"This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death."’

Another confession by A’isha:

"Among the (verses) which were sent down, (the verse) of the ten breast feedings was abrogated by (a verse which calls for five breast feedings. The apostle of God died and this verse was still read as part of the Qur’an. This was related by Abu Bakr and ’Umar" (refer to Suyuti’s qan, part 3, pages 62 and 63).

In his book (volume 8, part II, pages 235 and 236), Ibn Hazm says plainly,

"The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Qur’anic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it."

In part 3, page 73, the Suyuti said,

"Hamida, the daughter of Abi Yunis, said, ‘When my father was eighty years old, he read in the copy of A’isha, "God and His angels bless (literally pray for) the prophet Oh ye who believe, bless him and those who pray in the first rows." Then she said, "That was before ’Uthman changed the Qur’anic copies.""’

On page 74, we read,

"Umar said to ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf, ‘Didn’t you find among the verses that we received one saying, "Strive as you strove at the first?" We do not locate it (any more).’ ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf told him, ‘This verse has been removed among those others which were removed from the Qur’an."’

If we ponder the first part of "The Itqan", by the Suyuti, we read (page 184),

"Malik says that several verses from chapter 9 (Sura of Repentance) have been dropped from the beginning. Among them is, ‘In the name of God the compassionate, the Merciful’ because it was proven that the length of Sura of Repentance was equal to the length of the Sura of the Cow."

This means that this chapter has lost 157 verses. Also (page 184), the Suyuti tells us that the words, "In the name of God the compassionate, the merciful" were found in the chapter of Repentance in the Qur’anic copy which belonged to Ibn Mas’ud which ’Uthman confiscated and burned when the current Qur’an was edited.

Not only verses have been dropped, but also entire chapters have been abolished from the ’Uthmanic copy which is in the hands of all Muslims today.

The Perversion of the Qur'an and the Loss of Many Parts of It

Rajni · May 6, 2017

Mr.Pious said:

Isn't the Bible supposed to be altered as well?

Click to expand...

Yep.

The bible even admits to the law being compromised, according to Jeremiah 8:8:

"'How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,' when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

It still has some good stuff in there, though. I hesitate to throw the baby out with the bathwater in this instance.

Arthra · May 7, 2017

The Companions of the Prophet recited the revealed verses regularly..

There were scribes who recorded the verses on various materials;

Ali ibn abi Taleb was close to the Prophet during His revelations and was as well the Fourth Caliph ... He was Caliph after Uthman... Had there been any variations in the text collected by Uthman it would have been known and the issue would have been resolved... as it was Ali recognized the text and content of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an was in Arabic and continues to be studied in Arabic.

Had say James the brother of the Lord collected the sayings attributed to Jesus and they were written down in the Aramaic language they were given... You might have an analogy for the Qur'an... but alas there is no such document.

GeorgeTwo · May 7, 2017

chaela said:
Yep.

The bible even admits to the law being compromised, according to Jeremiah 8:8:

"'How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,' when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

It still has some good stuff in there, though. I hesitate to throw the baby out with the bathwater in this instance.

Jeremiah 8:8 is not talking about corruption of the law or changing the text of the law.

I will give you more accurate translations and then put Jeremiah 8:8 in context.

Jeremiah 8:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

Jerusalem Bible Koren translation

How can you say,
We are wise, and the Torah of the L-RD is with us?
Surely, the pen wrought in vain, in vain the scribes.
The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken:
lo, they have rejected the word of the L-RD;
and what wisdom is in them?

They have rejected the Word of God and not have destroyed it. That is the point. It has to exist and they have to know it in order to reject it.

The RADAK (Kimchi) put it this way:

If G-d's torah is with you, of what use is it if you observe it not!!! He who used the pen to write did so in vain. . . likewise...the futility [shekher] of the scribes. They have written it in vain. Since you observe it not, it is as if it weren't written..... "LA-SHEKHER".....[this means] in vain as [in the verse] " Truly in vain have I heeded..."

They didnt heed Torah so their study and writing is in vain.

A Hebrew - English Bible,According to the Masoretic Text,and the JPS 1917 Edition

8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.

9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

The Complete Jewish Bible, Hebrew translated into English

8. How do you say, "We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us"? Verily, behold it is in vain, he made a false scribes' pen.

9. Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?

Rashi comment: Wise men were ashamed: i.e., wise men like you. And what is the shame? Behold,they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?

Tanakh, new JPS according to the traditional Hebrew Text:

“How can you say, “We are wise,
And we possess the Instruction of the LORD?
Assuredlyh, for naught has the pen labored,
For naught the scribes!

Context:

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their devices, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.

Again rejected the law, not changed it.

Jeremiah 9:12-14
English Standard Version (ESV)

12 (A)Who is the man so wise that he can understand this? To whom has the mouth of the LORD spoken, that he may declare it? Why is the land ruined (B)and laid waste like a wilderness, so that no one passes through? 13 And the LORD says: (C)“Because they have forsaken my law that I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice or walked in accord with it, 14 but (D)have stubbornly followed their own hearts and have gone after the Baals, as their fathers taught them.

They have forsaken God’s law, not changed it.

Jeremiah 26:4
You shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law that I have set before you,

The have the law intact, but they have rejected it.

Jeremiah 31:33
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The law still exists.

Jeremiah 32:23

And they entered and took possession of it. But they did not obey your voice or walk in your law. They did nothing of all you commanded them to do. Therefore you have made all this disaster come upon them.

They have the law intact, but they are not obeying it.
They are rejecting it, not changing it.

Jeremiah 44:23
It is because you made offerings and because you sinned against the LORD and did not obey the voice of the LORD or walk in his law and in his statutes and in his testimonies that this disaster has happened to you, as at this day.”

If they did not possess the Law, or it had been corrupted by the scribes, how could they be held accountable for not walking in it?

If Jeremiah were accusing the scribes of changing the text of the Mosaic Law, why would he use one verse (verse 8) and then drop it.

What does the Messiah Jesus say?

Matthew 5: New International Version (©1984)
17. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 23: 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus said nothing about Jews changing the law.

Zoness · May 7, 2017

Why on Earth are we bumping 13 year old threads?

Rajni · May 7, 2017

The thread may be old, but evidently the topic is still relevant.

habibii zahra · May 9, 2017

sijo said:
OLDEST COPY OF THE QURAN AS KNOWN TODAY

The many variant readings caused Muslim soldiers from Iraq who followed Ibn Masud's collection, and soldiers of Syria who took Ubay's collection to be the correct one, to accuse each other of lying!

Uthman's reaction in 653 AD is recorded in the following Hadith: "Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman, Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Quran was revealed in their tongue.' They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burned. Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Surah 33, Alizab, (verse 23) was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari...'" (Bukhari, VI, No.510).

In spite of the radical measures taken there still is a verse missing in today's Quran: "Abdullah bin Abbas reported that Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allahs messenger and said: 'Verily Allah sent Muhammad with truth and he sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it...I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and this go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah...'" (Bukhari, VIII, No.816, Muslim, III, No. 4194).

The verse can not have been abrogated because the messenger of Islam was the only one who was authorized to do so. By the time the problem arose he was dead. The only reference found in today's Quran reads: "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Surah 24, Nur, verse 2) ????

Perhaps for reasons such as this Ibn Masud opposed the new official version of the Quran with the following words:

"The Prophet taught me to recite 70 Surahs which I had mastered before Zaid had even become a Muslim. How can you order me to recite the readings of Zaid, when I recited from the very mouth of the Prophet some 70 Surahs? Am I to abandon what I acquired from the very lips of the Prophet?" ("Masahif" by Ibn Abi Dawud).

After having studied the early surviving Quran manuscripts very thoroughly John Gilchrist states: "The oldest manuscripts of the Quran still in existence date from not earlier than about one hundred years after Muhammdad's death." ("Jam' Al-Qur'an", page 153)!!!!

He comes to this conclusion because two of the oldest manuscripts, the Samarqand and Topkapi codices are both written in the Kufic script. It "can generally be dated from the late eight century depending on the extent of development in the character of the script in each case." (Ibid. page 146)

Muslims, would you argue again that your quran is unaltered, unchanged and pristine?

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished. And I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared and ready, like a bride dressed to meet her husband Revelation 21: 1-2.

A new heaven and a new earth All living creatures praising the holy name of Lord Jesus Christ ..

This is the history of your quran which you claims the original copy of which is with Allah. NEVER, the original copy is in the hands of your ancestors!! It has been passed through the memories and hands of a number of illiterate and unschooled followers of Mohamed. Is there no possibility of Quran getting altered by some fanatic followers of Mohd to demean Lord Jesus Christ from Kalimathullah to a cheap prophet named Isa, when they faced furious attack from local Christians!! Decide yourself.

Now Muslims, stop boasting of your Quran. I have to ask you, take a copy of my mail and circulate it. Get the opinion of yourimams, mullahs and scholars like Ahmed Deedat and Hasan Baagil. Ask them to raise a single point to repudiate my claims.

Dear Christians, please be informed what you had read is the result of my hardwork a hard work ONLY to keep my Christian brothers and sisters from the aggression of Islam. This is for defending your true faith. Take a copy of it and circulate it. Enjoy this task as a missionary endeavour. No doubt, Lord Jesus Christ would reward you on the Judgment Day. A copy of this mail is enough to close the mouth of Muslims coming to argue with you about the authenticity of their quran. No need of hour-long arguments. You could save your time and sustain your Christian brethren in the true and vibrant faith in Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Prince of Peace.

Ye Muslims, people of quran, your fate is definite here

I assure you that whoever declares publicly that he belongs to me, the Son of Man will do the same for him before the angels of God. But whoever rejects me publicly, the Son of Man will also reject him before the angels of God Luke 12: 8-9.

Maranatha, Lord Jesus, please come fast

Sijo.

all what you have mentioned is non sense...we do not believe in the origin and the sources of these narrations...therefore those narrations are not trusted...and the narrators are not honest narrators....
the Quran is unaltered and unchanged...there is one version of the Quran and one alone..search the whole world for different Qurans you will not find but one Quran everywhere

Muslims, Quran unaltered? Then read it ....

Active Member

Active Member

Baha'i

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Celtic Witch

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Veteran

Veteran

New Member

Member

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Baha'i

Member

667, neighbor of the beast

☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯

Well-Known Member

Similar threads