God GAVE promises/covenants only to His Children. Some were CONDITIONAL: "IF you do X, you will receive Y." God does NOT "punish" His Children...He disciplines/trains Them who were free from the
"wrath of God". By "drinking the Cup", Jesus The God-Man took upon Him that which ALL Mankind deserved. He bled to death for a purpose: He died FOR YOU...in your place. In the ~3 hours on the unjust Cross, True God...True Man ...willingly took into Him all the sins of all men for all time.
He cried out in agony because for a speck of time in infinity, He felt SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD.
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God,
why have You
forsaken Me?”
You said in post74 : Post # 70 by bling = GREAT! I found little or nothing to discuss or debate. Being slightly hard headed, my presentations in this thread are not IDENTICAL TO the theory of "penal substitution"
Then you said in post 93: He died FOR YOU...
in your place. In the ~3 hours on the unjust Cross, True God...True Man ...
willingly took into Him all the sins of all men for all time.
How is that not Penal Substitution?
You also never addressed my post 80.
You insist on one definition of “for” which scripture does not support.
There are lots of “assumptions” you are making and I do not know even where to begin.
You said as an example: He cried out in agony because for a speck of time in infinity,
He felt SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD.
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Matthew 27:46 is often used as a “proof text” scripture to show: God left Christ while on the cross because Christ had become this sinful person or something like that, but that is not what Matt. 27:46 is supporting and is actually supporting just the opposite.
Matt: 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
Mark 15: 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 thing in mind: context, context, context, context and context.
Remember this was not written directly to us and we are reading other people’s mail.
1. “Eli, Eli” in Matthew is Hebrew for dad, dad or father, father while Mark used the Aramaic “Elio, Elio” translated the same father, father. This could have been a copying error, Jesus said it twice using different languages or Mark might have been more familiar with the Aramaic (both are very similar), also Matt. was thought to be written in Hebrew to begin with, the main thing is it was not said in Greek or Latin.
2. Why did Jesus use his last precious breaths to make this short statement?
3. Who was this said for or to? We always like to think it was being said only directly to us and for us, but that is never the case, so who? If you say God then Jesus is wasting his breath, since God has forsaken him (if that is what really has happened). If we say: one of the thieves, what question or comment is this addressing that would help them belief in Him? If we say one of the Maries or John, they might think Christ is praising them for being better than God Himself since they have “forsaken Him”, so is that what He is saying? If we say gentiles or Roman soldiers, they would not understand Hebrew or Aramaic, so it could not be for them. There were mockers that past by and even asked questions but seemed to just walk on. So who else was there?
4. If you go back to every time Jesus was asked a sincere question or comment, you will find Jesus gave a sincere answer that would help that person or persons (not always accepted well). So are there sincere questions be asked of Christ will on the cross he will have to address? Jesus does provide answers to sincere comments and questions, so could “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” be addressing a sincere question?
5. Matt. 27: In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.
That seems to be a sincere but mocking question, so how best to address such a question? Would using scripture these priests, teachers and elders would know like the back of their hand be a good way to address these questions and shut them up, give them goosebumps and make them think?
6. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Is the first line in psalms 22 and the Psalms is something all Jews would have memorized especially the spiritual leaders. But why did Jesus not just say: “Look at Psalms 22 for your answer” (at this time the psalms were not numbered so you just quoted the first line to direct the Jew to the whole Psalm).
7. Psalms 22 is a diatribe (a moral debate over a question between two parties (God and David in Psalms 22) which all good Jewish students and teachers would recognize, which means there is a diatribe quest and strong support for the wrong conclusion to the answer always given first (before the question, right after the question or before and right after the question).
8. Why did Jesus direct these spiritual Jewish leaders to Psalm 22 for their answer? Look what is says: Psalms 22: 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. 8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”
That is exactly what they have been doing and saying to Christ on the cross. Look some more:14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death…. 18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.
Would that not be what they are seeing?
9. The correct answer to the diatribe question comes at the end (as in all diatribe) Psalms 22: 24. For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
The answer is God has not forsaken the sufferer and is with him, just as God was with Christ while he was on the cross.
It is hard for us to appreciate the teaching style of a diatribe used in a Psalm without reading the 70 or so individual Psalms lament diatribes with lots of discussion and understanding among our peers. As has been shown good Jewish men at this time would have studied the Psalms to the point of having them all memorized and it only took the first verse to bring to memory the entire Psalm, so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to mine the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?