" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

mkgal1

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I hate when the English Bible translators translate “discipline” as “punishment” and I said specifically: “but really carry the meaning of our Loving fair/just disciplining by God our Father for our rebellious disobedience”.
True.....you did add that explanation, but I still don't see God as being the one to "discipline" us---I don't think He controls humanity like that. To be blunt....there are people that I *wish* God punished....but I just don't see reality working that way.
We most likely do not like being disciplined while it is happening, but are there not lots of benefits to being disciplined we miss out on if it does not happen?

Would you agree with this: Parents have two main responsibilities toward their rebellious disobedient child and that is to forgive and if at all possible to see to the fair/just loving disciplining of that child?
I believe God the father is just a metaphor....so comparing His "parenting" to human parenting isn't quite equitable.

However......in my own parenting, my priorities were always trust and respect built between parent and child. My child is an adult now, so I feel safe in saying that style worked well for us. I never really had to deal with any rebellion.
 
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mkgal1

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@Ron Gurley I think your beliefs may line up more closely to the "Satisfaction Theory" of at-one-ment:

Theopedia said:
The Satisfaction (or Commercial) theory of the atonement was formulated by the medieval theologian Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109) in his book, Cur Deus Homo (lit. ‘Why the God Man’). In his view, God’s offended honor and dignity could only be satisfied by the sacrifice of the God-man, Jesus Christ.

The classic Anselmian formulation of the Satisfaction View needs to be distinguished from Penal Substitution. Penal Substitution states that Christ bore the penalty for sin, in place of those sinners united to him by faith. Anselm, by contrast, regarded human sin as defrauding God of the honour he is due. Christ's death, the ultimate act of obedience, gives God great honour. As it was beyond the call of duty for Christ, it is more honour than he was obliged to give. Christ's surplus can therefore repay our deficit. Hence Christ's death is substitutionary in this sense: he pays the honour instead of us. But that substitution is not penal; his death pays our honour not our penalty.

The Protestant reformers shifted the focus of this satisfaction theory to concentrate not merely on divine offense but on divine justice. God's righteousness demands punishment for human sin. God in his grace both exacts punishment and supplies the one to bear it.

This is an important difference. For Anselm, Christ obeyed where we should have obeyed; for John Calvin, he was punished where we should have been punished.

....I'm not sure, though. I'm just basing that on your post where you said your belief is separate from "penal".
 
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Ron Gurley

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RE: a SATISFACTION "ELEMENT"

"PROPITIATION"
...

New Testament Greek:
G2435 ...hilasterion (he-lä-sta'-re-on) =~ propitiation, "mercy seat"

...“The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God.
Propitiation is a two-part act that involves
appeasing the wrath of an offended person and
being reconciled to them.”
Propitiation is that:
“by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner.
The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; (God is ALSO perfectly LOVING and MERCIFUL!)
it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners...

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God,
but that He loved us and
sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR our sins.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things,
so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation FOR the sins of the people.
 
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bling

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True.....you did add that explanation, but I still don't see God as being the one to "discipline" us---I don't think He controls humanity like that. To be blunt....there are people that I *wish* God punished....but I just don't see reality working that way.

I believe God the father is just a metaphor....so comparing His "parenting" to human parenting isn't quite equitable.

However......in my own parenting, my priorities were always trust and respect built between parent and child. My child is an adult now, so I feel safe in saying that style worked well for us. I never really had to deal with any rebellion.

It is great to hear you were a wonderful parent.

Muslims tout the fact that the Quran has 99 descriptions (names) for God, but the Quran never describes God as Father or even Shepherd. They seem to like to place God way off in the seventh heaven and way above man.

I did not come up with the idea of calling God “Father”, Jesus seemed to emphasize the use of calling God Father and in the one example of how we are to pray it starts out “Our Father…”

The kingdom which includes believers here on earth (the Church) is an organism, a body, a family and not some institution or organization.

I agree God is much more than a “Parent” and we can carry that analogy to far, but are we very much like dependent children?

Even if you do not think of God as our parent, you should be able to relate to yourself as a growing child at least for the early part of Christian life.


You say: “there are people that I *wish* God punished”, but God only disciplines His children and will later punish the children of satan who never accepted God’s fair/just disciplining.

What are the “benefits” to being fairly (disciplined) for our transgressions?

Answers:

It is a deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline which keeps them from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater severity to the disciplining the greater the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the how we will be disciplined for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent/judge needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent/judge.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child it is a teaching moment.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love if at all possible, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.


Just as the father wanted his sons to be like himself in the prodigal son story, God wants us to choose to humbly accept His Love and become like He is. The only initial way for humans to obtain Godly type Love is as a free gift automatically “...He that is forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love)”. That Love can later grow with use, but cannot be developed independently or instinctively possessed by the individual. Thus the need for sin and likely alternatives on earth (the perceived pleasures of sin).

Here is a parable I wrote:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?
 
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Ron Gurley

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God did not "punish" A&E for "disobedience". He lovingly "disciplined" them. God did "punish" all of mankind with the Flood except for Noah's family, because He he was perfectly JUST against His "good creation" who were ALL continually sinning/disobeying against Him.

Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

God the Father did not "punish" His only begotten (not made) Son of God. He accepted the perfect, willing and voluntary and obedient blood sacrifice of Jesus the God-Man FOR all Mankind as a FORE-SEEN plan of salvation from eternity.

Philippians 2:8
Being found in appearance as a man (TRUE MAN),
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient (to the RANK of God the Father)
to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus died FOR YOU!
 
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jimmyjimmy

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God did not "punish" A&E for "disobedience". He lovingly "disciplined" them. God did "punish" all of mankind with the Flood except for Noah's family, because He he was perfectly JUST against His "good creation" who were ALL continually sinning/disobeying against Him.

Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

God the Father did not "punish" His only begotten (not made) Son of God. He accepted the perfect, willing and voluntary and obedient blood sacrifice of Jesus the God-Man FOR all Mankind as a FORE-SEEN plan of salvation from eternity.

Philippians 2:8
Being found in appearance as a man (TRUE MAN),
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient (to the RANK of God the Father)
to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus died FOR YOU!

What was in the "cup" that Jesus didn't want to drink?
 
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Ron Gurley

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Hmmm. Blood sacrifice from the Messiah "cup".?

What did Christ mean by "the cup"? Was it :
  • Death on the cross
  • The intense suffering He endured
  • God's wrath
  • His taking the sins of the world upon Himself
  • All of these, the whole process
  • Something else?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Hmmm. Blood sacrifice from the Messiah "cup".?

What did Christ mean by "the cup"? Was it :
  • Death on the cross
  • The intense suffering He endured
  • God's wrath
  • His taking the sins of the world upon Himself
  • All of these, the whole process
  • Something else?

It was God's wrath.

What is God's wrath?
 
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Ron Gurley

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REF: "Let this cup pass from me" - What is the cup?

It's the Cup of God's Wrath
Isaiah 51:17+ NIV

The Cup of the LORD’s Wrath

17 Awake, awake! Rise up, Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD the cup of his wrath, you who have drained to its dregs the goblet that makes people stagger. 21 Therefore hear this, you afflicted one, made drunk, but not with wine. 22 This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath,
you will never drink again. 23 I will put it into the hands of your tormentors, who said to you, ‘Fall prostrate that we may walk on you.’ And you made your back like the ground, like a street to be walked on.”

Again in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 25+ NIV

The Cup of God’s Wrath

15 This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16 When they drink it, they will stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them.”

...

7 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ 28 But if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink, tell them, ‘This is what the LORD Almighty says: You must drink it! 29 See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears my Name, and will you indeed go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth, declares the LORD Almighty.’

It goes on and on in Jeremiah. Of course, Revelation makes the last mention.

Revelation 14:10 (NIV)

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:19 (NIV)

19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Edit

Your condemnation was to suffer God's wrath in hell for all of eternity. Jesus took your law place and was subjected to God's wrath on your behalf. There's nothing else in all of existence that God the Son would have so much stress over that He would sweat blood.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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REF: "Let this cup pass from me" - What is the cup?

It's the Cup of God's Wrath
Isaiah 51:17+ NIV

The Cup of the LORD’s Wrath

17 Awake, awake! Rise up, Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD the cup of his wrath, you who have drained to its dregs the goblet that makes people stagger. 21 Therefore hear this, you afflicted one, made drunk, but not with wine. 22 This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath,
you will never drink again. 23 I will put it into the hands of your tormentors, who said to you, ‘Fall prostrate that we may walk on you.’ And you made your back like the ground, like a street to be walked on.”

Again in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 25+ NIV

The Cup of God’s Wrath

15 This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16 When they drink it, they will stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them.”

...

7 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ 28 But if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink, tell them, ‘This is what the LORD Almighty says: You must drink it! 29 See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears my Name, and will you indeed go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth, declares the LORD Almighty.’

It goes on and on in Jeremiah. Of course, Revelation makes the last mention.

Revelation 14:10 (NIV)

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:19 (NIV)

19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Edit

Your condemnation was to suffer God's wrath in hell for all of eternity. Jesus took your law place and was subjected to God's wrath on your behalf. There's nothing else in all of existence that God the Son would have so much stress over that He would sweat blood.

I agree.

What I do not agree with is:
God the Father did not "punish" His only begotten (not made) Son of God. He accepted the perfect, willing and voluntary and obedient blood sacrifice of Jesus the God-Man FOR all Mankind as a FORE-SEEN plan of salvation from eternity.
 
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Ron Gurley

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John 10: 17-18;27-30 (NASB)
17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. (no punishment or killing or bllod sacrifice!)
18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative.
I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.
This commandment I received from My Father.”...
27 My sheep (believers) hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I GIVE eternal life to them, and they will never perish (spiritually);
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.(OSAS!)
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.(OSAS!)
30 I and the Father are one.” (in spiritual essence and nature)
 
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jimmyjimmy

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John 10: 17-18;27-30 (NASB)
17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. (no punishment or killing or bllod sacrifice!)
18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative.
I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.
This commandment I received from My Father.”...
27 My sheep (believers) hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I GIVE eternal life to them, and they will never perish (spiritually);
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.(OSAS!)
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.(OSAS!)
30 I and the Father are one.” (in spiritual essence and nature)

Go and learn what this means: Jesus suffered the curse of the (broken) covenant. What was *punishment* for breaking the covenant?

Jesus laying down His life is was not suicide. He submitted Himself to the wrath of the Father. He went willingly, that's what is meant by the above text.
 
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Ron Gurley

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God GAVE promises/covenants only to His Children. Some were CONDITIONAL: "IF you do X, you will receive Y." God does NOT "punish" His Children...He disciplines/trains Them who were free from the
"wrath of God". By "drinking the Cup", Jesus The God-Man took upon Him that which ALL Mankind deserved. He bled to death for a purpose: He died FOR YOU...in your place. In the ~3 hours on the unjust Cross, True God...True Man ...willingly took into Him all the sins of all men for all time.

He cried out in agony because for a speck of time in infinity, He felt SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD.

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
 
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jimmyjimmy

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God GAVE promises/covenants only to His Children. Some were CONDITIONAL: "IF you do X, you will receive Y." God does NOT "punish" His Children...He disciplines/trains Them who were free from the
"wrath of God". By "drinking the Cup", Jesus The God-Man took upon Him that which ALL Mankind deserved. He bled to death for a purpose: He died FOR YOU...in your place. In the ~3 hours on the unjust Cross, True God...True Man ...willingly took into Him all the sins of all men for all time.

He cried out in agony because for a speck of time in infinity, He felt SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD.

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Without an understanding of covenants, there is not much understanding of Christ, His cross, or Christianity.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #94 :Without an understanding of covenants, there is not much understanding of Christ, His cross, or Christianity.

There are many: fulfilled, yet to be fulfilled,etc (OT).
My favorite: The NEW COVENANT of the NT! Post some of YOUR favorites!!

The NEW Covenant!...substitutionary atonement.

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out FOR many FOR forgiveness of sins.
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is (represents) My body.”

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the (NEW)covenant, which is poured out FOR many.
22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them,
and said, “Take it; this is (represents) My body.”

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is IN Christ, he is a new creature;
the old things passed away;
behold, new things have come.

God disciplines and trains those whom he loves...just like my earthly father.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Post #94 :Without an understanding of covenants, there is not much understanding of Christ, His cross, or Christianity.

There are many: fulfilled, yet to be fulfilled,etc (OT).
My favorite: The NEW COVENANT of the NT! Post some of YOUR favorites!!

The NEW Covenant!...substitutionary atonement.

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out FOR many FOR forgiveness of sins.
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is (represents) My body.”

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the (NEW)covenant, which is poured out FOR many.
22 While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them,
and said, “Take it; this is (represents) My body.”

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is IN Christ, he is a new creature;
the old things passed away;
behold, new things have come.

God disciplines and trains those whom he loves...just like my earthly father.

Why did Christ have to die?
 
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bling

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God GAVE promises/covenants only to His Children. Some were CONDITIONAL: "IF you do X, you will receive Y." God does NOT "punish" His Children...He disciplines/trains Them who were free from the
"wrath of God". By "drinking the Cup", Jesus The God-Man took upon Him that which ALL Mankind deserved. He bled to death for a purpose: He died FOR YOU...in your place. In the ~3 hours on the unjust Cross, True God...True Man ...willingly took into Him all the sins of all men for all time.

He cried out in agony because for a speck of time in infinity, He felt SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD.

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

You said in post74 : Post # 70 by bling = GREAT! I found little or nothing to discuss or debate. Being slightly hard headed, my presentations in this thread are not IDENTICAL TO the theory of "penal substitution"

Then you said in post 93: He died FOR YOU...in your place. In the ~3 hours on the unjust Cross, True God...True Man ...willingly took into Him all the sins of all men for all time.

How is that not Penal Substitution?

You also never addressed my post 80.

You insist on one definition of “for” which scripture does not support.

There are lots of “assumptions” you are making and I do not know even where to begin.

You said as an example: He cried out in agony because for a speck of time in infinity, He felt SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD.

Matthew 27:46

About the ninth hour (of the day) Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Matthew 27:46 is often used as a “proof text” scripture to show: God left Christ while on the cross because Christ had become this sinful person or something like that, but that is not what Matt. 27:46 is supporting and is actually supporting just the opposite.

Matt: 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Mark 15: 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 thing in mind: context, context, context, context and context.

Remember this was not written directly to us and we are reading other people’s mail.

1. “Eli, Eli” in Matthew is Hebrew for dad, dad or father, father while Mark used the Aramaic “Elio, Elio” translated the same father, father. This could have been a copying error, Jesus said it twice using different languages or Mark might have been more familiar with the Aramaic (both are very similar), also Matt. was thought to be written in Hebrew to begin with, the main thing is it was not said in Greek or Latin.

2. Why did Jesus use his last precious breaths to make this short statement?

3. Who was this said for or to? We always like to think it was being said only directly to us and for us, but that is never the case, so who? If you say God then Jesus is wasting his breath, since God has forsaken him (if that is what really has happened). If we say: one of the thieves, what question or comment is this addressing that would help them belief in Him? If we say one of the Maries or John, they might think Christ is praising them for being better than God Himself since they have “forsaken Him”, so is that what He is saying? If we say gentiles or Roman soldiers, they would not understand Hebrew or Aramaic, so it could not be for them. There were mockers that past by and even asked questions but seemed to just walk on. So who else was there?

4. If you go back to every time Jesus was asked a sincere question or comment, you will find Jesus gave a sincere answer that would help that person or persons (not always accepted well). So are there sincere questions be asked of Christ will on the cross he will have to address? Jesus does provide answers to sincere comments and questions, so could “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” be addressing a sincere question?

5. Matt. 27: In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.

That seems to be a sincere but mocking question, so how best to address such a question? Would using scripture these priests, teachers and elders would know like the back of their hand be a good way to address these questions and shut them up, give them goosebumps and make them think?

6. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Is the first line in psalms 22 and the Psalms is something all Jews would have memorized especially the spiritual leaders. But why did Jesus not just say: “Look at Psalms 22 for your answer” (at this time the psalms were not numbered so you just quoted the first line to direct the Jew to the whole Psalm).

7. Psalms 22 is a diatribe (a moral debate over a question between two parties (God and David in Psalms 22) which all good Jewish students and teachers would recognize, which means there is a diatribe quest and strong support for the wrong conclusion to the answer always given first (before the question, right after the question or before and right after the question).

8. Why did Jesus direct these spiritual Jewish leaders to Psalm 22 for their answer? Look what is says: Psalms 22: 7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. 8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

That is exactly what they have been doing and saying to Christ on the cross. Look some more:14

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax;

it has melted within me.15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,

and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death…. 18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

Would that not be what they are seeing?

9. The correct answer to the diatribe question comes at the end (as in all diatribe) Psalms 22: 24. For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.


The answer is God has not forsaken the sufferer and is with him, just as God was with Christ while he was on the cross.


It is hard for us to appreciate the teaching style of a diatribe used in a Psalm without reading the 70 or so individual Psalms lament diatribes with lots of discussion and understanding among our peers. As has been shown good Jewish men at this time would have studied the Psalms to the point of having them all memorized and it only took the first verse to bring to memory the entire Psalm, so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to mine the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?
 
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Ron Gurley

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OOO ...Q&A time. I get paid by the hour, Where do I send the bill?

Q1: How is that not Penal Substitution?
A1: "Penal" implies PUNISHMENT.
God the Father did not PUNISH God the Son!

Q2. Why did Jesus use his last precious breaths to make this short statement?
A2:He (for the FIRST and ONLY instant) felt SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from the TRI-UNE GOD/ God the Father.

Q3: So who else was there?(at the CROSS)
A3: God the Father + God the Holy Spirit

Q4: so could “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” be addressing a sincere question?
A4: No...God the Son is crying out to God the Father, His loving "Daddy".

Q5: Would using scripture (to) these ..be a good way to address these questions and shut them up
A5: No..BUT a lot of folks knew this Psalm:
Psalm 22:1 [ A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise. ] [ For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. ]
My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

Q6: why did Jesus not just say: “Look at Psalms 22 for your answer"
A6: DUMB "why" question!

Q7: Why did Jesus direct these spiritual Jewish leaders to Psalm 22 for their answer? / Would that not be what they are seeing?
A7: He did not! / No!

Q8: so Jesus is not taking one verse out of context but bringing to minf the entire Psalm, but to whom and why?
A8: God the Son was calling out in agony to His dear God the Father ONLY. Others MAY have heard??
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Post #96: "Why did Christ have to die?"

So that mankind would not spiritually PERISH and be eternally separated from God. TRUE MAN...TRUE GOD died FOR all men.

Why did require the death of anyone? God could have simply forgiven us without anyone being punished, could He not have?
 
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