Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,536
4,621
70
Las Vegas
✟319,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Isaiah 66:24 shows others will go out and look at them.
They will see the men that transgressed against God and be abhorred. The only reason that I can come up with for this scenario is God will use the wicked as a warning to never again sin against Him.
OT verses show this same pattern as to - so all Israel will hear and fear. and obey
Thought provoking, using the eternal suffering as a warning, but a warning to who? The saints will have eternal life. No holy angel would be foolish enough to sin after seeing what has already happened to Lucifer. But still thought provoking.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
If I may make one more post just long enough to address this by saying "Amen" to that. I actually am afraid to violate my own conscience now by going back and believing the traditional view that God sees fit to torture unbelievers forever, because I believe doing so would unjustly malign God and so displease Him. I am actually afraid to insult His goodness by deliberately returning to a harsher belief about His sense of justice, when I have been shown otherwise in Scripture. It's fine if people have been raised on the traditional view just like I had and genuinely think it is the correct one supported by the Bible, but again, I myself cannot violate my conscience by going back to it just because.

Are we more just than God??? Certainly not. God is justice, He is fair, He takes everything into consideration, He judges the lost 'according to their works"----if we can see that infinite torture is not justice, He certainly can. How can we love a God that would punish the Jews that have rejected Him, even during the holocaust, by being worse than Hitler and torturing them forever?? At least under Hitler, there was an end to the suffering.
 
Upvote 0

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,536
4,621
70
Las Vegas
✟319,724.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If I may make one more post just long enough to address this by saying "Amen" to that. I actually am afraid to violate my own conscience now by going back and believing the traditional view that God sees fit to torture unbelievers forever, because I believe doing so would unjustly malign God and so displease Him. I am actually afraid to insult His goodness by deliberately returning to a harsher belief about His sense of justice, when I have been shown otherwise in Scripture. It's fine if people have been raised on the traditional view just like I had and genuinely think it is the correct one supported by the Bible, but again, I myself cannot violate my conscience by going back to it just because.
I don't think it is accurate (I know it isn't.) to say that God tortures. It is man's choice to reject God.
Mt 25:41 says "...everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels (not for man)." God is not there doing any torturing. This kind of thinking malign's and displeases God. You seem to elevate your conscience above God and His Word. Jer 17:9 says "The heart (conscious too) is deceitful above all things, desparately wicked, who can know it? "
 
Upvote 0
Mar 24, 2017
205
112
35
Houston
Visit site
✟16,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I think you're a sincere guy @Greg Merrill. atleast I hope you are.

Me. I make my attempts to act as a sheep being sent amongst wolves. Follow Jesus. Even learn a thing or two about setting things straight, speaking with some sense, bettering myself and repenting. as well as mention the absurdities of the darkside. considering that were living in dark times. as a warning.

Lets hope our sense of compassion is in front of us. and not held as a card to play as if a game. because we are speaking about salvation. not politics. my friend.
either way it says to love you.

It would also seem that an attempt is being made to convince that one especially a believing Christian has sinned more than say a non believer or continues to sin even though the former is making the attempt to redeem himself in Christ, change, and repent. Merril. you mentioned to me. that I reminded you of a young ruler who almost had been saved.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Victor E.

Disciple of Christ
Supporter
Aug 3, 2016
2,712
404
31
U.S
✟201,211.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If someone is devoid of the Holy-Spirit, they are by nature, children of wrath- aka children of the devil. They have the spirit of this world, they are not begotten of God. I don't see the difference between the godless and the devil. Are they not the same? Moral Relativism is not God's standard of judgement. It's His Word. John 12:37-50, 2 Timothy 2:1-13, 1 Timothy 6:3-10, Isaiah 55.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

The 'Lake of Fire' is the Second Death, which is where those who are Faithful unto Death are not Harmed by it.

You might try going back to the drawing board on that one.
 
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Whats the difference..
You want to perish? Go right ahead..
I desire to please he who laid down his life for me.
You risk steering people away from the fear of God..
I want no part of it.

I can understand that... but an exaggerated
claim on the horrors of hell tends to turn away far
more people than are scared into church by this method.

I have seen lots of interviews by Pastor Ray Comfort, I am
certain that he is totally sincere...... but I suspect that he turns
almost as many people away as he leads toward church..... because
we tend to think to ourselves....... if by becoming a Christian I have to
treat people like Pastor Ray Comfort does.......
no thank you!
 
Upvote 0

devin553344

I believe in the Resurrection
Nov 10, 2015
3,607
2,249
Unkown
✟93,810.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?

I think you have to use the scriptures and human reasoning. Remember that death of the body is permanent and lasts forever, unless resurrected and saved. The second death or lake of fire is death of the spirit and last forever, God can still save man from the lake of fire and does as he indicates in the Bible.

The Holy Ghost said he saved me from the lake of fire. Remember the fearful and liars are cast into there, which includes probably everyone at some point, and perhaps not, but it sounds nearly all inclusive. Hope that makes sense :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SarahsKnight

Jesus Christ is this Knight's truth.
Supporter
Jul 15, 2014
11,024
11,983
39
Magnolia, AR
✟981,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This kind of thinking malign's and displeases God

Well, yeah, that's kind of a main reason why I do not think it.


You seem to elevate your conscience above God and His Word.

Do you not think that maybe our consciences as believers were given to us by God in the first place? (In the form of the Holy Spirit?) And the primary reason I came to reject the teaching of eternal conscious punishment IS because I do not see it in the written word of God - not just because the thought of eternal torment disturbs my conscience.

Do we not go to Scripture for answers for these things as believers? Then I see little to no evidence in the Bible for unbelievers suffering consciously in hell for eternity right alongside the believers being in conscious bliss in Heaven for eternity. That is, I see little to no evidence after I started reading the Bible and considering all of the verses and passages dealing with this subject WITHOUT the sheer presumption that all humans have inherent immortality of the soul, such that no matter what they will live forever in Heaven or hell after earthly death. Quite the opposite is indicated in the Bible, actually, if not outright spoken, that immortality is not inherent, but rather only possible through Jesus Christ. It will be a gift given to believers, rather than a trait already shared by both believer and nonbeliever.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,171
Florida
Visit site
✟766,603.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hell will be destroyed. Hell will be as nothingness. The righteous will live in a new heaven and earth.

2 Peter 3 (WEB)
8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: DennisTate
Upvote 0

DennisTate

Newbie
Supporter
Mar 31, 2012
10,742
1,664
Nova Scotia, Canada
Visit site
✟379,864.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Hell will be destroyed. Hell will be as nothingness. The righteous will live in a new heaven and earth.

2 Peter 3 (WEB)
8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Exactly!

This is an important part of the big picture!
 
Upvote 0

Kurtben

Member
May 6, 2017
6
5
82
New Mexico
✟7,961.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hell, actually the Lake of Fire, is eternal punishment; conscious punishment.
The human nature (1Co 2:14) has a hard time accepting the concept at times, especially when they do not accept God's Word on the matter.
Why have people suffer forever? Why not just annihilate them after they are cast into The Lake of Fire? Someone once gave this answer:
"Infraction against infinite righteousness deserves infinite punishment."
Sounds like a good answer. Of course people can still reject it using human reasoning.
What do you think?
It is easy for the insensitive to not care about "eternal fire" especially when they think that they are one of the chosen ones who get to go to heaven. But God's ways are much more real than they might imagine. There are millions of professed Christians who would spend eternity burning in the flames because in their lives they were not perfect before God. Heaven is for the Godlike, and not for those who only voted for God in their churches. God is not interested in getting elected.

But many do not understand God's "fire." Some dwell in it now in this life. The final destruction is natural. The wicked are shown their lives and all of their sins and the crimes against God and man. In vision, the God of heaven will expose everything to them, and especially to professed Christians who did not live as Christ lived. This "fire" comes down upon them from heaven and destroys them all. (Rev 20:9) They will not have eternal life in hell, but they will be destroyed. This fits in with the benevolent nature of God. In this sense it is "eternal" fire since it is for eternity that the effects of this are present.

Some souls would take exception to this and argue with me, until they realize that it is they who would burn forever in their fiery hell. They think they are righteous enough for God and it is only those evil people not like them who would burn. But NO, is is them. I have a question for these insensitive souls, will they actually take pleasure in watching their family screaming in the flames for eternity? Would that be heaven? These are truly the ones who go into the lake of fire where they will be consumed. God's great controversy will insure that all sin and sinners are removed from His universe, and not given eternal life in the flames in their angry rebellion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Toro

Oh, Hello!
Jan 27, 2012
24,219
12,451
You don't get to stalk me. :|
✟338,520.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are we more just than God??? Certainly not. God is justice, He is fair, He takes everything into consideration, He judges the lost 'according to their works"----if we can see that infinite torture is not justice, He certainly can. How can we love a God that would punish the Jews that have rejected Him, even during the holocaust, by being worse than Hitler and torturing them forever?? At least under Hitler, there was an end to the suffering.
How is it not just to do as said you would? God gives us MANY chances to turn to Him in our lives, IF we forsake those chances and choose the world are we not guilty of having a false idol? (Putting ANYTHING or ANYONE above ABBA the Father)

Jesus even warns that the Jews will not be spared.

Romans 11:21
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches...... IF we do not bear spiritual fruit we WILL be cut off and we WILL be thrown into the fire. For if He will not spare the natural branches (those that belong to Him naturally through the Jewish faith..... why then would He spare those NOT of the natural vine UNLESS they abide in Him and He in them?)

If Hell were temporary, why then would the rich man speak of an unending torment IF he were "just dead and obliterated"?

Luke 16:19-31

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

"31" Even speaks that "even if one were to rise from the dead they would not be convinced" Sounds an awful lot like Christ, dont you think? Rose from the dead and yet, unbelief runs rampent, even by so called "Christians" that God is not who He says He is and will not do as He said He will.

This "Hell is temporary" or "Certainly a loving God would not throw me in hell forever" is the same lie of the devil that told Eve "You will not SURELY die if you eat of this tree".

I personally do not feel that hell is a punishment. Simply the conclusion of a choice. You choose life, or you choose death. Both eternal, but only one of them is the correct choice. God punishes those He loves so they are corrected from going asstray. What is the point of punishment and guidance IF one has already arrived at their destination?

God honors the choice we choose out of love because He gave us free will. What we choose to do with that free will is on our souls. We choose God, or we choose a dying world that leaves us seperate from God. If one wants nothing to do with God in this world, how would it be loving to FORCE them to be around a creator they wanted nothing to do with in life?

God is merciful, God is just.... but you can not think of those terms in light of a human mindset. You must look at it from a creators mindset. If I as an artist draw a work of art and then destroy it because I was not pleased with it, how would that drawing (lets say in this example it could talk) have any right to declare "Thats not fair" and that assessment hold MORE weight than what I decided as its creator? How is it not just if I tell that drawing I will destroy it if it does not do as I created it to do, then I do exactly as I told it I would?

Does that mean that one will NEVER sin? Absolutely not. However, it DOES mean that in ones walk they will reach a point where they are no longer LIVING in sin (excusing it as "well, nobody is perfect".) They will however stumble into sin now and then, but there is a difference between excusing it.

Weak example: Screaming a curse after you stub your toe in the dark at 2am and willfully going off on someone for no reason with cursing.

Do you HONESTLY believe that Jesus came, suffered all that suffering and punishment to save us from a hell that is "only temporary" or a case of "no longer existing at all" ? IF it were only temperary..... why even have it at all? Why not let EVERYONE in regaurdless of how they lived and the side they choose?

Lastly for those thinking we all end up in Heaven eventually even those that suffer hell, if Jesus says:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many a]">[a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 18:3
Truly I tell you, He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

If hell were temparary and we all wound up going to Heaven after a time in hell.... then Jesus did not speak truth in the underlined part. He would have instead said "They will not enter the kingdom until after their time in hell is served" because Jesus did not/does not lie.

If "Hell is simply a destruction and ceasing to exist" how is it that the Rich man in the story of Lazarus can be so aware that he is suffering if he has been obliterated?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0