When did God, the Son, or Christ become "less than" the Father...? (John 10:29, John 14:28)...

buzuxi02

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Verses 4-8:

Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)
I have a unitarian discussion of it posted on here. It may help you understand the passage:
Arian vs Socinian interpretation of Philippians 2:5-9

It's really irrelevant what the Arians thought. The strict Arianism of Arius himself and Asterius the Sophist only existed for about 40 years. In fact Arius himself along with his party (before his sudden death) agreed to a compromise on his theology. Later on the (semi) Arians who only concerned themselves with the word Homoousios at the council of Seleucia even anathemized the anomeanist term favored by the (strict arians).

What we know is that the Philipian verses in ch. 2 is a pre-Pauline hymn or poem. It was already known in the early church and Paul is quoting from it.
We also know the references to Jesus divinity in the epistles are framed in worship language, meaning the divinity of Christ was something experienced in worship rather than a doctrinal statement. Hence in 2 Corinthians 13 Paul concludes his letter with a Trinitarian benediction, probably a familiar benediction which closed a many Christian prayer service. We also see this divinity of the Son in primitive creeds in use by the church: 1 Tim 3:16 , etc.

Jesus was lower than His Father through His bodily economy. Paul said, "Though He was rich for our sake he became poor, so we who are poor may through his poverty become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
He is also lower than the Father hypostatically because the Father is unbegotten while Christ is begotten of him. The Father is the unoriginate source of the entire Godhead. (yes this is what the Nicene creed endorsed by this forum teaches)
 
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tstor

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It's really irrelevant what Arian's thought. The strict Arianism of Arius himself and Asterius the Sophist only ecited for about 40 years. In fact Arius himself along with his party before his sudden death agreed to a compromise on his theology. Later (semi)Arians who argued about the word Homoousios at theit council of Seleucia even anathemized the anomeanists (strict arians).
What we know is that the Philipian verses in ch. 2 is a pre-Pauline hymn or poem. It was already known in the early church and Paul is quoting from it.
We also know that references to Jesus divinity in the epistles are framed in worship language, meaning the divinity of Christ was someting experienced in worship rather than a doctrinal statement. Hence in 2 Corinthians 13 Paul concludes his letter with a Trinitarian benediction, probably a familiar benediction which closed a Christian prayer service. In primitive creeds 1 Tim 3:16.

Jesus was lower than His Father through His bodily economy. Paul said, "Though He was rich for our sake he became poor, so we who are poor may through his poverty become rich. 2 Cor 8:9
He is also lower than the Father hypostatically because the Father is unbegotten while Christ is begotten of him. The Father is the unoriginate source of the Godhead.
I do not disagree with you at all. It was not my intention to recognize the trinitarian position in that post. I plan on doing that later.
 
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tstor

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No, it doesn't. How could it?

Quort
Well, let's just look at both passages:

For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? (Hebrews 1:5; ESV)​

this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'" (Acts 13:33; ESV)​

These are both in reference to Psalm 2:7. There is clearly a point in time in which the Son is "begotten." The Sonship, therefore, could not have been eternal.
 
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buzuxi02

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I do not disagree with you at all. It was not my intention to recognize the trinitarian position in that post. I plan on doing that later.

Oh it's ok. There's many self professed experts on Arianism, yet hardly none know it originated at the Lucian school of Antioch after 290 AD. They think it was some sort of ancient parallel belief when it was quite modern and did not even last long.
 
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Quort

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Well, let's just look at both passages:

For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? (Hebrews 1:5; ESV)​

this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'" (Acts 13:33; ESV)​

These are both in reference to Psalm 2:7. There is clearly a point in time in which the Son is "begotten." The Sonship, therefore, could not have been eternal.

The Son was the Son before He was declared 'begotten'. See (Luke 3:22) " And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

So, you see...the Son was the Son before being declared 'begotten'.

Quort
 
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tstor

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The Son was the Son before He was declared 'begotten'. See (Luke 3:22) " And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

So, you see...the Son was the Son before being declared 'begotten'.

Quort
What do you take "begotten" to mean if that is the case? And, to be clear, I am not saying I disagree with you. I am just asking because I am not familiar with your position.
 
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Neogaia777

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What do you take "begotten" to mean if that is the case? And, to be clear, I am not saying I disagree with you. I am just asking because I am not familiar with your position.
Issac is supposed to Abraham's "only begotten" Son, though he had Ismael...? Before Issac too...

Issac was not Abraham's firstborn, but yet the only begotteness of Issac gave him the all the rights and position as firstborn... Mystery there, Does Jacob and Esau tie into this as well... And Jacob's name being changed to Israel.. Establishing the nation of Israel by and through him...

The way he (Jacob) got the rights as firstborn and how that is tied into him eventually becoming Israel...?

God Bless!
 
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Quort

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What do you take "begotten" to mean if that is the case? And, to be clear, I am not saying I disagree with you. I am just asking because I am not familiar with your position.

It means, first of all that the Son was never begotten. But, the Son having taken a human body, was declared begotten of God at the resurrection. Not the incarnation. The begatting of the Son, as the Godman, at the resurrection, was important because it made the resurrection the birthing place. Because from that point on God would bear many more sons, via the resurrection.

(1Peter 1:3) " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

Quort
 
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drayanna

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When?
On what time line?
The time line we know as humans?
Since God created the time line that we know as humans and then states time to God is not man's time.
When would/could not be answered by any other human.
Your question is meant to confuse.
A discussion on this would be fruitless and non productive.
We know God was, is, always will be.
We know Jesus was, is, always will be.
We know that the Lamb holds the 7 eyes of the Spirit of God.
We know the 7 Spirits of God is the Holy Spirit.
We know that of God means part God because (of)
We explain this as Water, ice, vapor.
Water as God
Ice as Jesus
Vapor as Holy Spirit.
Part of the Water goes into below freezing temp. becoming ice.
Part of the water is heated to a point of vapor.
All parts still WATER.

Our Heavenly Father sits on the throne. And this puts Him as the leader. The right hand of God is where you find a book sealed for one worthy to save mankind from wrath. No man could accomplish this Job. Part of God had to do this Job but in a man form.
We can prove that this split in God was before the 'in the flesh' moment.
Read: zechariah
If you want to get to know God and His ways read proverbs and think about Wisdom, Knowledge, fear of the Lord etc
Then read Isaiah and find these same things mentioned to be in the one to come and take are iniquities.
Again read of David saying On the right hand of God is his salvation.
Then Peter in Acts telling men what they are seeing is the filling of the Holy Spirit.
When did Jesus become less? Than the Father?
When is determined by the one who created 'WHEN'
Since
Was - Origin and Etymology of was

Middle English, from Old English, wæs, 1st & 3rd singular past indicative ofwesan to be; akin to Old Norse vera to be, var was, Sanskrit vasati he lives, dwells

was-Definition of was

past tense first- and third-person singular of BE

Is-Definition of is

present tense third-person singular of BE

dialectal present tense first-person and third-person singular of BE

dialectal present tense plural of BE

then amazingly -always-Definition of always

1: at all times

2: forever

ALWAYS WILL BE!

His does not have a time. It just has always been. (Been as in connection to BE)

However for laughs sake you could then ask:
Did Jesus become less than God in the time line created by God for humans?
Yes!
Jesus Christ came 'in the flesh' and flesh is less than Our Heavenly Father on the throne. As 'in the flesh' Jesus Christ still part of God but 'in the flesh' needed to show us humans how to walk, pray, love, forgive, and seek Our Heavenly Father.

if this answers your question then great. But if it doesn't then my advise is do as Jesus did.
fast and pray and fast and pray and fast and pray and then maybe the Holy Spirit will give you God’s wisdom.
God Bless
 
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Laureate

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When did God, the Son, or Christ become "less than" the Father...? (John 10:29, John 14:28)...

Peace,

God Bless!


When the Father who sits upon the throne spoke from the abundance of his heart the Word/Son went forth to perform the Will of the Father whom Sent him.

He who Sends is Greater than the one whom is Sent by him.

I would have thought a more interesting question would have been, When did Jesus become greater than the greatest man born of a woman/John the Baptist?
 
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Deadworm

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The OP's question might lead to deeper discussion if it is connected to these 6 related questions:

(1) Why was Jesus apparently unable to perform miracles prior to receiving the Holy Spirit at His baptism?

(2) Let's take this question one step further. Prior to His baptism, why was Jesus so unimpressive that His family considered His later messianic claims fraudulent (John 7:6; Mark 6:5; 3:20-21)? Didn't His virgin birth make a dent on His family?

(3) In His incarnation, Jesus did not cling to "His equality with God," but rather "emptied Himself" (Philippians 2:5-6). Emptied Himself of what--His divinity? His divine prerogatives?

(4) Why does Paul imply that Jesus was "begotten" or birthed by God by the resurrection (Acts 13;31-33)?

(5) How could Jesus "grow in favor with God" if Jesus was not previously less in favor with God (Luke 2:52)? Put differently, how could Jesus "learn obedience through the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:7), if He was not previously disobedient in some ways?

(6) Does the Risen Lord presently have both a divine and a human nature? If so, how could He be the same being prior to His incarnation?
 
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Ron Gurley

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We are now exploring: mysteries of the TRI-UNE GOD

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit...united as ONE in spiritual essence as DEITY.

The THREE spiritual Persons of the Godhead are DIFFERENT!
...spiritually discernible has having different NAMES, RANK, ROLE. MISSION, FUNCTION, ETC.

God the Father is Divine / Deity.
God the Holy Spirit is Divine / Deity.
God the Son, Jesus the Divine Messiah, is Divine / Deity.

In spiritual essence and nature, GtF*GtHS*GtS, are united and ONE.

Colossians 2 ....
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity (TRUE GOD) dwells in bodily form, (TRUE MAN)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 1 ....
16 For by Him all things were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created THROUGH Him and FOR Him.
17 He is BEFORE all things, and
in Him all things "hold together".
18 He is also head of the body, the church;
and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;
 
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Ron Gurley

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OFF POINT Q&A...I'll play!

(Q1) Why was Jesus apparently unable to perform miracles prior to receiving the Holy Spirit at His baptism?
A1: No miracles/signs/wonders were REPORTED in Scripture. Jesus was DIVINE/DEITY at conception.
His symbolic water baptism was for the benefit of WITNESSES. It signaled the START of His ~3 year miracle-filled MINISTRY.
First Step: 40 day temptation by satan in the desert.

(Q2) Let's take this question one step further. Prior to His baptism, why was Jesus so unimpressive that His family considered His later messianic claims fraudulent (John 7:6; Mark 6:5; 3:20-21)? Didn't His virgin birth make a dent on His family?
A2: How many knew that Jesus the God-Man was immaculately conceived? M&J did. Jesus the TRUE MAN grew up as a Jewish "man".

(Q3) In His incarnation, Jesus did not cling to "His equality with God," but rather "emptied Himself" (Philippians 2:5-6). Emptied Himself of what--His divinity? His divine prerogatives?
A3: At Divine conception, Deity was was poured out into perfect flesh, without loss or change in deity.
Jesus as True God perfectly veiled or revealed His Divine attributes to the "world" in His ~3 years.

(Q4) Why does Paul imply that Jesus was "begotten" or birthed by God by the resurrection (Acts 13;31-33)?
A4: He did not so imply. God the Father sent down His only begotten (not made) Son of God from the heavenly realms.

(Q5) How could Jesus "grow in favor with God" if Jesus was not previously less in favor with God (Luke 2:52)? Put differently, how could Jesus "learn obedience through the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:7), if He was not previously disobedient in some ways?
A5: False assumptions. Back to TRUE MAN.Luke 1+2 has the best summary. As Jesus matured, he became more spiritually wise from the Torah and life.
Jesus was always obedient to the Fathet...the Sinless ONE. The world and the devil taught Him endurance.

(Q6) Does the Risen Lord presently have both a divine and a human nature? If so, how could He be the same being prior to His incarnation?
A6: Jesus had a DUAL NATURE from conception to ascension. TRUE MAN...TRUE GOD.
The miracle of resurrection TRANSFORMED Him with a "spirit-body" with which he appeared to many and ascended.
 
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devin553344

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When did God, the Son, or Christ become "less than" the Father...? (John 10:29, John 14:28)...

Peace,

God Bless!

Those verses also indicate what is also written, that Jesus the Christ goes to ascend to the throne of his Father and to have power as God the Father has power and are one: see Revelation: {3:21} To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Again, the Son always existed with the Father. He never became. Neither did the Father become. Theirs is not a human trait. Thus when the Son took on a human body, that same existance did not change between Him and the Father.

Quort


I just thought of something: if Jesus always existed, how can he be "begotten"?
 
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Wolfe

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I just thought of something: if Jesus always existed, how can he be "begotten"?
Christ the man can be born, but Christ was also God, so the part of "the son" that always was, was of course God himself.
The man Christ obviously had to be born, in some way or another. The physical body.
But the being that Christ was always was.
 
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Quort

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I just thought of something: if Jesus always existed, how can he be "begotten"?

See (Acts 13:33) and post #49.

At the resurrection the Son was begotten in that the Spirit of God raised the Son up with that dead body, forever uniting the Son with that body. The Son, the second person of the Godhead, will always and forever be the man Jesus Christ.

Quort
 
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CrystalDragon

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Christ the man can be born, but Christ was also God, so the part of "the son" that always was, was of course God himself.
The man Christ obviously had to be born, in some way or another. The physical body.
But the being that Christ was always was.

See (Acts 13:33) and post #49.

At the resurrection the Son was begotten in that the Spirit of God raised the Son up with that dead body, forever uniting the Son with that body. The Son, the second person of the Godhead, will always and forever be the man Jesus Christ.

Quort


Oh, so saying "begotten" in that case means that Jesus was the only one who was come down from heaven and took on human form, right?
 
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