" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

Ron Gurley

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" Substitutionary Atonement "...a preamble!

1. The TRI-UNE God created Mankind in THEIR own spritual image.

2. "Natural Man", beginning with A&E, has an innate "sin nature"...
to be disobedient, self / world centered, and with a tendancy to turn from God.

3. God has given Man (and angels) the spiritual gift of "Free Will" to spiritually accept or reject Him
and His gracious provisions for salvation when called / drawn by the Spirit.

4. God is perfectly Loving/Merciful/full of Grace. AND He is also perfectly JUST.
He loves all sinners. AND He hates all sin.

5. Sinful Man on his own cannot work his way to heaven and be acceptable to a perfect sinless God. A sin barrier exists.
Man needs a Savior to act on his behalf to reconcile himself to God

6. Jesus the God-Man had a DUAL NATURE:
True Man: the sinless New Adam.
True Deity: Divinity poured out into a miraculous Body without loss or change of Deity.

7. Jesus the Divine Messiah voluntarily bled to death on a cruel, unjust Cross.
Jesus the God-Man voluntarily substituted Himself FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
His miraculous birth, ministry, death, resurrection, appearances, and ascension
RECONCILED Man to God. (at-one-ment)

8. The New Covenant: The blood of Jesus covers the sin of man.
We believers are longer under condemnation.
We believers are FORGIVEN of our SINS.

PLEASE DISCUSS (with supporting copy + paste Scripture) Your VIEWS on any or all of the above.

AND NOW: " Substitutionary Atonement "

Substitution = e.g. "hyper" / ...Jesus died FOR you...in your place

2 Corinthians 5:21,
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin "on our behalf",
that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him." (Imputed Righteousness!)

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once FOR all;
but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18 -
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

1 Peter 2 (NASB)
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered FOR you,
leaving you an example FOR you to follow in His steps,
22 (Jesus:) who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return;
while suffering, He uttered no threats,
but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
FOR by His wounds you were healed.
25 For you were continually straying like sheep,
but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Atonement = basic meaning of RECONCILIATION....work of redemption on behalf of ...

"Atonement" = at-ONE-ment = spiritual reconciliation and other benefits of salvation...
...some spiritual act that "pays for" / redeems Man from his sin nature / sin / sin(s)
...the penalty due to Man's sins are avoided
...action decreed by God for the re-establishment of a positive relationship
between Man (the sinner) and Himself (the holy God).

The OT is replete with a myriad of ritual laws to cover the sins of Israel.
The word Atonement is used only ONCE in the KJV of the NT.

Romans 5:11 KJV
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the atonement.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage....adjustment of a difference, RECONCILIATION, restoration to favour

Romans 5: 6-11 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly.
For one will hardly die for a righteous man;
though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (sanctified) by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Leviticus 16:34
Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, (Mosaic Law)
to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.”
And just as the Lord had commanded Moses, so he did.

Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,
first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once FOR all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but THROUGH His own blood,
He entered the holy place once FOR all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10:10
By this will we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR all.

See also: PROPITIATION ...

New Testament Greek:
G2435 hilasterion (he-lä-sta'-re-on) =~ propitiation, "mercy seat"

...“The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God.
Propitiation is a two-part act that involves
appeasing the wrath of an offended person and
being reconciled to them.”
Propitiation is that:
“by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner.
The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; (God is ALSO perfectly LOVING and MERCIFUL!)
it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners...

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God,
but that He loved us and
sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR our sins.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things,
so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation FOR the sins of the people.

The BLOOD of Jesus:

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus
you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence
to enter the holy place (presence of God) by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
the great Shepherd of the sheep
through the blood of the eternal covenant,
even Jesus our Lord,

1 Peter 1:2 ...a peek a the TRI-UNE GOD?
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
to obey (God the Son) Jesus Christ
and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 John 1:7
but if we (believers) walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
we have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES (washes away) us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ,
the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
 
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mkgal1

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What is it? A theory. One of many. I, personally, agree with the Franciscans:

Franciscans never believed that “blood atonement” was required for God to love us. Our teacher, John Duns Scotus (1266-1308), said Christ was Plan A from the very beginning (Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:3-14). Christ wasn’t a mere Plan B after the first humans sinned, which is the way most people seem to understand the significance of the death and resurrection of Jesus. The Great Mystery of Incarnation could not be a mere mop-up exercise, a problem solving technique, or dependent on human beings messing up.

Scotus taught that the Enfleshment of God had to proceed from God’s perfect love and God’s perfect and absolute freedom (John 1:1-18), rather than from any mistake of ours. Did God intend no meaning or purpose for creation during the first 14.8 billion years? Was it all just empty, waiting for sinful humans to set the only real drama into motion? Did the sun, moon, and galaxies have no divine significance? The fish, the birds, the animals were just waiting for humans to appear? Was there no Divine Blueprint (“Logos”) from the beginning? Surely this is the extreme hubris and anthropomorphism of the human species!

The substitutionary atonement “theory” (and that’s all it is) seems to imply that the Eternal Christ’s epiphany in Jesus is a mere afterthought when the first plan did not work out. I know there are many temple metaphors of atonement, satisfaction, ransom, “paying the price,” and “opening the gates”; but do know they are just that—metaphors of transformation and transitioning. Too many Christians understood these in a transactional way instead of a transformational way.~https://cac.org/incarnation-instead-of-atonement-2016-02-12/
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #5: "what...did Jesus accomplish by dying on the Cross?

1 Peter 3:18 - He died IN PLACE OF YOU! ...FOR!!
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

Substitutionary Atonement!!

Hebrews 10...One voluntary blood Sacrifice by Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah Is Sufficient for the sinner
(Under the OT Mosaic "Law" of blood sacrifice to cover the sins of Isreal)...
....For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...("the old Covenant")
...(where) Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices,
which can never take away sins;
12 but He, (Jesus the Christ) having offered ONE sacrifice FOR sins FOR ALL time, (FOR all mankind!)
SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
waiting from that time onward
UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
For by ONE offering He has perfected FOR all time those who are sanctified. (saved and set apart)
...Now where there is FORGIVNESS of these things (sins),
there is no longer any (blood) offering for sin....(necessary!)

 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #3: "Why did you choose to post it in CT?"

Because there are various DOCTRINES contrary to this Biblical one.

E.G.:
satisfaction, ransom, “paying the price,” and “opening the gates”;
 
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St_Worm2

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Post #5: "what...did Jesus accomplish by dying on the Cross?

1 Peter 3:18 - He died IN PLACE OF YOU! ...FOR!!
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

Substitutionary Atonement!!

Hebrews 10...One voluntary blood Sacrifice by Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah Is Sufficient for the sinner
(Under the OT Mosaic "Law" of blood sacrifice to cover the sins of Isreal)...
....For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...("the old Covenant")
...(where) Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices,
which can never take away sins;
12 but He, (Jesus the Christ) having offered ONE sacrifice FOR sins FOR ALL time, (FOR all mankind!)
SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
waiting from that time onward
UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
For by ONE offering He has perfected FOR all time those who are sanctified. (saved and set apart)
...Now where there is FORGIVNESS of these things (sins),
there is no longer any (blood) offering for sin....(necessary!)

Thanks Ron, that question was actually asked in response to Mkgal1's post. You already made what you believe pretty clear ;)
 
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St_Worm2

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Substitutionary Atonement?
I don't believe in the substitutionary part. I see no scripture supporting it.

Hi Near, do you believe in the "Atonement" part?

If so, what is atonement, and what was the atonement for?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #9 "I see no Scripture supporting it (SUBSTITUTION)

Focus on the word "FOR"...in place of...on your behalf.

Substitution = e.g. "hyper" / ...Jesus died FOR you...in your place

2 Corinthians 5:21,
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin "on our behalf", that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him." (Imputed Righteousness!)

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once FOR all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18 -
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

1 Peter 2 (NASB)
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered FOR you,
leaving you an example FOR you to follow in His steps,
22 (Jesus:) who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return;
while suffering, He uttered no threats,
but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
FOR by His wounds you were healed.
25 For you were continually straying like sheep,
but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Hi Near, do you believe in the "Atonement" part?

If so, what is atonement, and what was the atonement for?

Thanks!

--David

What did Jesus accomish on the cross?
As a famous evangelist once said:

He died to pay the penalty of believers sin, and subsequently died to break the power of sin
Christ made Himself a Sacrifice of Love to God for us, making our reconciliation to God possible through the atonement for ours sins. In this view, is we that caused His suffering not God.
 
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bling

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" Substitutionary Atonement "...a preamble!

1. The TRI-UNE God created Mankind in THEIR own spritual image.

2. "Natural Man", beginning with A&E, has an innate "sin nature"...
to be disobedient, self / world centered, and with a tendancy to turn from God.

Were Adam and Eve made “very good”?

Gen. 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day

What is the difference between “very good” and perfect like Christ?

Describe this “sin nature” and could humans be made from the beginning without this “nature” and why not?

"
3. God has given Man (and angels) the spiritual gift of "Free Will" to spiritually accept or reject Him
and His gracious provisions for salvation when called / drawn by the Spirit.

Can they accept or reject the invitation (call) Matt. 22?

"
4. God is perfectly Loving/Merciful/full of Grace. AND He is also perfectly JUST.
He loves all sinners. AND He hates all sin.

5. Sinful Man on his own cannot work his way to heaven and be acceptable to a perfect sinless God. A sin barrier exists.
Man needs a Savior to act on his behalf to reconcile himself to God

So you see the problem being with God’s inability to be able to reconcile with sinful man or is the problem with man’s inability to free himself from “self” and go to God?

Was there this barrier between Christ and sinful man (Judas, Peter, or adulterous woman) while he was on earth?

"
6. Jesus the God-Man had a DUAL NATURE:
True Man: the sinless New Adam.
True Deity: Divinity poured out into a miraculous Body without loss or change of Deity.

7. Jesus the Divine Messiah voluntarily bled to death on a cruel, unjust Cross.
Jesus the God-Man voluntarily substituted Himself FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
His miraculous birth, ministry, death, resurrection, appearances, and ascension
RECONCILED Man to God. (at-one-ment)

This will have to be supported with scripture, but to begin with: John 19:30 “When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” So it was finished before he actually died so what is that referring to?

"
8. The New Covenant: The blood of Jesus covers the sin of man.
We believers are longer under condemnation.
We believers are FORGIVEN of our SINS.

So is God so blood thirsty He requires blood to forgive? Lev. 5 has a bag of flour used as the atonement sacrifice and God forgave them afterwards for unintentional sins?

Did God forgive repentant sincere followers in the Old Testament without the need for blood (Ro. 3:25) ?
 
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mkgal1

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Hi Mkgal1, what, if anything, did Jesus accomplish by dying on the Cross?

Thanks!

--David
Did you read the article I linked? It's all in there (and in a way that's far more articulate than I can be). If you don't want to click on the link (for whatever reason)....I'm not going to take up huge amounts of this page copying and pasting the entire article, but this is a nutshell excerpt:

In Franciscan parlance, Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity; Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God. This grounds Christianity in pure love and perfect freedom from the very beginning. It creates a very coherent and utterly positive spirituality, which draws people toward lives of inner depth, prayer, reconciliation, healing, and even universal “at-one-ment,” instead of mere sacrificial atonement. Nothing changed on Calvary, but everything was revealed as God’s suffering love—so that we could change! (Please read that again.)

Jesus was precisely the “once and for all” (Hebrews 7:27) sacrifice given to reveal the lie and absurdity of the very notion and necessity of “sacrificial” religion itself. Heroic sacrifices to earn God’s love are over! That’s much of the point of Hebrews 10 if you are willing to read it with new eyes. But we perpetuated such regressive and sacrificial patterns by making God the Father into the Chief Sacrificer, and Jesus into the necessary victim. Is that the only reason to love Jesus?

This perspective allowed us to ignore Jesus’ lifestyle and preaching, because all we really needed Jesus for was the last three days or three hours of his life. This is no exaggeration. The irony is that Jesus undoes, undercuts, and defeats the sacrificial game. Stop counting, measuring, deserving, judging, and punishing, which many Christians are very well trained in—because they believe that was the way God operated too. This is no small thing. It makes the abundant world of grace largely inaccessible—which is, of course, the whole point.

.....another way of saying all that is simply: We love because He first loved us.
 
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mkgal1

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There is, of course, more to be gleaned from what occurred on the cross.

Spirit of St. Stephen's.org said:
Crux probat omnia was a statement used by some early systematic theologian. Translated, it says, "The cross proves everything."

The crucified Jesus certainly is no stranger to human history either. He offers, at a largely unconscious level, a very compassionate meaning system for history. The mystery of the rejection, suffering, passion, death and raising up of Jesus is the interpretative key for what history means and where it is all going. Without such cosmic meaning and soul significance, the agonies and tragedies of humanity feel like Shakespeare's "sound and fury signifying nothing." The body can live without food easier than the soul can live without such meaning.

If all these human crucifixions are leading to some possible resurrection, and are not dead-end tragedies, this changes everything. If God is somehow participating in human suffering, instead of just passively tolerating it and observing it, that also changes everything-at least for those who are willing to "gaze" contemplatively.

The pattern of down and up, loss and renewal, enslavement and liberation, exile and return, transformation through darkness and suffering has become quite clear in the Hebrew Scriptures, and you do not need to wait for the New Testament. Jesus will use his Jonah symbol and say, "it is the only sign he is going to give" (Luke 11:29). It almost seems like Jonah in the belly of the whale was Jesus' own metaphor for what would later become the doctrine of the cross.

The theological term for this classic pattern of descent and ascent was coined by Saint Augustine as "the paschal mystery." We now proclaim it publicly at every Eucharist as "the mystery of faith"!

So how does this happen? How does the victim transform us? How does the Lamb of God "take away" our sin (John 1:29), to use the common metaphor? How does Jesus "overcome death and darkness," as we often say? Is it just a heavenly transaction on God's side, or is it more an agenda that God gives us for our side?

Did Jesus not reveal for all humanity the very pattern of redemption itself? Could that not be what we mean by calling him "The Savior of the World"? John 4:42). Jesus is, in effect, saying, "This is how evil is transformed into good! I am going to take the worst thing and turn it into the best thing, so you will never be victimized, destroyed or helpless again! I am giving YOU the victory over all death!"

Jesus takes away the sin of the world by dramatically exposing what is the real sin of the world (ignorant attacking and killing, not purity codes), by refusing the usual pattern of attacking and killing back, and,
in fact, "returning their curses with blessings" (Luke 6:27), then finally by teaching us that we can "follow him" in doing the same. ~Spirit of St. Stephen's - The Mystery of the Cross (Richard Rohr, Ch. 9, Things Hidden, Scripture as Spirituality)

***Sorry :( that was longer than I intended. I had trouble figuring out where to stop.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Ok. Q&A. I work by the hour. Where do I send my bill?

Q1: Were Adam and Eve made “very good”?
A1: All of God's Creation is "good". He did not create "evil", the absence of God.

Q2: What is the difference between “very good” and perfect like Christ?
A2: God the Father ==> "good"...God the Son==> Divine perfection.

Q3: Describe this “sin nature”
A3: SIN NATURE = the natural-born capacity and inclination to do / not do those things that can in no way commend Man and his "works" to God....
This nature is SPIRITUALLY changed by salvation / redemption, BUT the "old Man" still rears its ugly head in BODY / SOUL during SANCTIFICATION.

Q4: could humans be made from the beginning without this “nature”?
A4: No. God gave "free will" to Man and angels. Man can exercise it against God...A&E chose to DISOBEY!

Q5: Can they (Mankind) accept or reject the (God's spiritual) invitation (Calling/Drawing)?
A5: Yes.
1 Chronicles 28:9 DAVID:
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father,
and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you seek Him, He will let you find Him;
but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Q6: problem being with God’s inability to be able to reconcile with sinful man .
A6: No. God has no "inabilities". He is ALL EVERYTHING...LOVING + JUST...among other attributes.

Q7: problem with man’s (spiritual) inability to free himself from “self” and go to God?
A7: No. God knocks. Man opens.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Q8: Was there (a sin) barrier between Christ and sinful man ...while he was on earth?
A8: No. Jesus had a DUAL NATURE...TRUE MAN...TRUE GOD.
Luke 5:32:...I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”(SALVATION!)

Q9: John 19:30 “When he had received the drink, Jesus said,
“It is finished.” (His work on earth!)
With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
A9: Jesus, as True Man, bled to death (body/soul combo) on an unjust Cross.
As True God, He committed His SPIRIT back to heaven from whence it came.

Q10: ..God (the Father) so blood thirsty He requires blood (of God the Son) to forgive?
A10: No. Study/Google/Bible Search: "substitutional atonement" AND "blood of Jesus"

Q11: Did God forgive repentant sincere followers in the Old Testament without the need for blood ?
A11: Yes and no. The blood of bulls etc covered the sins of Israel. Davis was a BIG sinner. Read the Psalms.
 
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