Passover and Unleavened Bread

gadar perets

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Sunset starting the evening of Nisan 14 to sunset starting the evening of Nisan 15 - would indeed be "between the evenings."
Here is a simple graphic for you:

upload_2017-5-1_19-36-35.png
 
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AbbaLove

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Actually, I was working from the Hebrew in the Exodus passage and neither the Pharisaic nor the Sadducean POV.
But in the interest of full disclosure neither, do I discount the wisdom of the Rabbis.
That's Xactly the crux of the matter. Rabbinic Judaism (Chabad.org) doesn't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God, the Lamb of God. Their Complete Jewish Bible doesn't include the Gospels. So why would you allow yourself to put any trust in their interpretation of Exodus 12:6 or Leviticus 23:5, which they base on a man-made tradition introduced by the Pharisees?

That is really the crux of this discussion. Should Messianic Jews believe a man-made tradition of the Pharisees perpetuated by Rabbinic Judaism ... OR ... the ordained instruction as introduced by YHVH to the Israelites in Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5.

EVENING
˓ereb (עֶרֶב, 6153), “evening, night.” The noun ˓ereb appears about 130 times and in all periods. This word represents the time of the day immediately *preceding and following the setting of the sun. During this period, the dove returned to Noah’s ark (Gen. 8:11). Since it was cool, women went to the wells for water in the “evening” (Gen. 24:11). It was at “evening” that David walked around on top of his roof to refresh himself and cool off, and observed Bathsheba taking a bath (2 Sam. 11:2). In its first biblical appearance, ˓ereb marks the “opening of a day”: “And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Gen. 1:5). The phrase “between the evenings” means the period between sunset and darkness, “twilight” (Exod. 12:6; KJV, “in the evening”).
How to celebrate Pesach and the Feast of Unleavened Bread | Set Apart People


Shemot 12:6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
And it will be with you for mishmeret (examination, checking for blemishes) up until the fourteenth day of the same month; and kol Kehal Adat Yisroel shall slaughter (shachat) it in the afternoon [before dark].​

In other words preparation for the lambs being slain began in the afternoon of the 13th and finished before dark when blood was brushed on the door posts. Likewise, preparations for Yeshua's Pesach began on the 13th with the Pesach meal taking place on the evening at the beginning of the 14th. Thus the recorded account by Matthew, Mark and Luke is according to timeline of YHVHs instruction rather than following the so-called "wisdom" of the teachers of Israel (Pharisees).

John 8:44-45
(Complete Jewish Bible)
44 You belong to your father, Satan, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. From the start he was a murderer, and he has never stood by the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is speaking in character; because he is a liar — indeed, the inventor of the lie!
45 But as for me, because I tell the truth you don’t believe me.
(Yeshua speaking to the Pharisees)​
 
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Henaynei

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That's Xactly the crux of the matter. Rabbinic Judaism (Chabad.org) doesn't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God, the Lamb of God. Their Complete Jewish Bible doesn't include the Gospels. So why would you allow yourself to put any trust in their interpretation of Exodus 12:6 or Leviticus 23:5, which they base on a man-made tradition introduced by the Pharisees?

That is really the crux of this discussion. Should Messianic Jews believe a man-made tradition of the Pharisees perpetuated by Rabbinic Judaism ... OR ... the ordained instruction as introduced by YHVH to the Israelites in Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5.

EVENING
˓ereb (עֶרֶב, 6153), “evening, night.” The noun ˓ereb appears about 130 times and in all periods. This word represents the time of the day immediately *preceding and following the setting of the sun. During this period, the dove returned to Noah’s ark (Gen. 8:11). Since it was cool, women went to the wells for water in the “evening” (Gen. 24:11). It was at “evening” that David walked around on top of his roof to refresh himself and cool off, and observed Bathsheba taking a bath (2 Sam. 11:2). In its first biblical appearance, ˓ereb marks the “opening of a day”: “And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Gen. 1:5). The phrase “between the evenings” means the period between sunset and darkness, “twilight” (Exod. 12:6; KJV, “in the evening”).
How to celebrate Pesach and the Feast of Unleavened Bread | Set Apart People


Shemot 12:6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
And it will be with you for mishmeret (examination, checking for blemishes) up until the fourteenth day of the same month; and kol Kehal Adat Yisroel shall slaughter (shachat) it in the afternoon [before dark].​

In other words preparation for the lambs being slain began in the afternoon of the 13th and finished before dark when blood was brushed on the door posts. Likewise, preparations for Yeshua's Pesach began on the 13th with the Pesach meal taking place on the evening at the beginning of the 14th. Thus the recorded account by Matthew, Mark and Luke is according to timeline of YHVHs instruction rather than following the so-called "wisdom" of the teachers of Israel (Pharisees).
going from the Hebrew does not mean I am going by what the Chabad say. And the "Complete Jewish Bible" is NOT Chabad or any other non-Messianic Judaism. The Complete Jewish Bible by Dr. David Stern is totally and completely COMPLETE, including what you would call the New Testament.

In this discussion I have clearly spoken of and from the translation of the Hebrew and not from any man-made interpretation of the Church which is from men and historically vociferously against any and all Judaism, unlike Yeshua and the Apostles, and the first approximately 100,000 believers who were ALL Jewish, and the early Church leaders such as Sha'ul/Paul and Yaacov/James the Elder the leader in Jerusalem.
John 8:44-45
(Complete Jewish Bible)
44 You belong to your father, Satan, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. From the start he was a murderer, and he has never stood by the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is speaking in character; because he is a liar — indeed, the inventor of the lie!
45 But as for me, because I tell the truth you don’t believe me.
(Yeshua speaking to the Pharisees)​
I don't know where you are going with this.... but
Mattisyahu 23:1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: 2 “The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim (Pharisees),” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act!”

The only thing Yeshua said negatively here about the Pharisees was that His followers were to not follow the Pharisee's example but they WERE TO FOLLOW what the Pharisees said to do. In other words, the Pharisees had it right in what they taught by word, but they did not follow their own teachings.
 
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gadar perets

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That's Xactly the crux of the matter. Rabbinic Judaism (Chabad.org) doesn't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God, the Lamb of God. Their Complete Jewish Bible doesn't include the Gospels. So why would you allow yourself to put any trust in their interpretation of Exodus 12:6 or Leviticus 23:5, which they base on a man-made tradition introduced by the Pharisees?
The Pharisees and Sadducees both had leaven to be wary of (Mathew 16:6). The Sadducees didn't even believe in a resurrection and they, too, rejected Yeshua (and are proponents of twilight).

That is really the crux of this discussion. Should Messianic Jews believe a man-made tradition of the Pharisees perpetuated by Rabbinic Judaism ... OR ... the ordained instruction as introduced by YHVH to the Israelites in Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5.
Or, the Rabbinic practice of killing the Passover in the afternoon is the original ordained practice and twilight is the man-made tradition perpetuated by people who don't understand Scripture.

The phrase “between the evenings” means the period between sunset and darkness, “twilight”
If that is true, then why do you keep trying to teach us that the lambs were killed on the 13th rather than the 14th just after sunset ending the 13th?

Shemot 12:6
(Orthodox Jewish Bible)
And it will be with you for mishmeret (examination, checking for blemishes) up until the fourteenth day of the same month; and kol Kehal Adat Yisroel shall slaughter (shachat) it in the afternoon [before dark].
In other words preparation for the lambs being slain began in the afternoon of the 13th and finished before dark when blood was brushed on the door posts.
This is referring to slaughtering the Passover on the afternoon of the 14th.

Likewise, preparations for Yeshua's Pesach began on the 13th with the Pesach meal taking place on the evening at the beginning of the 14th. Thus the recorded account by Matthew, Mark and Luke is according to timeline of YHVHs instruction rather than following the so-called "wisdom" of the teachers of Israel (Pharisees).
Yeshua did not tell his disciples to prepare for Passover until after the sun set beginning Abib 14 (the day the lambs were slain).

John 8:44-45
(Complete Jewish Bible)
44 You belong to your father, Satan, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. From the start he was a murderer, and he has never stood by the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he is speaking in character; because he is a liar — indeed, the inventor of the lie!
45 But as for me, because I tell the truth you don’t believe me.
(Yeshua speaking to the Pharisees)
Yeshua was speaking to the "Jews which believed on him" (John 8:31).
 
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AbbaLove

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going from the Hebrew does not mean I am going by what the Chabad say. And the "Complete Jewish Bible" is NOT Chabad or any other non-Messianic Judaism. The Complete Jewish Bible by Dr. David Stern is totally and completely COMPLETE, including what you would call the New Testament.
As previously posted Chabad has their own "Complete Jewish Bible" which as you might expect does not include the B'rit Chadashah (NT) account by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary

Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra is considered as knowledgeable, if not more so, than Rashi when it comes to interpreting the literal Hebrew meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "at evening" (ibn Ezra-literal meaning) OR "in the afternoon" as does Chabad's CJB (Rashi-Midrash) with respect to Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5. ...
I don't know where you are going with this....
Should Messianic Jews believe the Midrashic commentary and not to the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם that adds credibility to the B'rit Chadashah (NT) accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

As a Messianic Jew are you open to exploring the possibility that "in the afternoon" (Chabad CJB interpretation) is not the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם in Exodus 12:6 based ibn Ezra's literal meaning as well as that of other Hebrew scholars.

Will title the thread "Midrash Meaning OR Literal Hebrew Meaning" with respect to the first PassOver (Exodus 12). The thread will discuss the two interpretations being: "in the afternoon" (Midrash) and "at evening" (literal meaning).

We know that Rabbinic Judaism (Midrash) favors "in the afternoon" over a literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as expressed in many "Christian" Bibles (KJV) as "in the evening".

Midrash (Rabbi Rashi) or Literal Meaning (Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra)
For instance, the Midrashic comment that the Torah was created 2,000 years before the creation of the world is all very well as a pleasant way of pointing to the superiority of the Torah above all things; but such a notion cannot be taken literally, since there cannot have been any "years" before the creation of the world, years themselves being part of the creation.
 
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Henaynei

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As previously posted Chabad has their own "Complete Jewish Bible" which as you might expect does not include the B'rit Chadashah (NT) account by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary

Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra is considered as knowledgeable, if not more so, than Rashi when it comes to interpreting the literal Hebrew meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "at evening" (ibn Ezra-literal meaning) OR "in the afternoon" as does Chabad's CJB (Rashi-Midrash) with respect to Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5. ...
Should Messianic Jews believe the Midrashic commentary and not to the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם that adds credibility to the B'rit Chadashah (NT) accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

As a Messianic Jew are you open to exploring the possibility that "in the afternoon" (Chabad CJB interpretation) is not the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם in Exodus 12:6 based ibn Ezra's literal meaning as well as that of other Hebrew scholars.

Will title the thread "Midrash Meaning OR Literal Hebrew Meaning" with respect to the first PassOver (Exodus 12). The thread will discuss the two interpretations being: "in the afternoon" (Midrash) and "at evening" (literal meaning).

We know that Rabbinic Judaism (Midrash) favors "in the afternoon" over a literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as expressed in many "Christian" Bibles (KJV) as "in the evening".

Midrash (Rabbi Rashi) or Literal Meaning (Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra)
If you read my posts you know my view - between the evenings = sunset into the 14th to sunset into the 15th, though one person suggested sunrise 14 to sunset into 15th. I'd go with either. The long time frame is necessary to slaughter all the lambs that needed to be done and have time to roast them in time for the Seder.
 
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gadar perets

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As previously posted Chabad has their own "Complete Jewish Bible" which as you might expect does not include the B'rit Chadashah (NT) account by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary

Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra is considered as knowledgeable, if not more so, than Rashi when it comes to interpreting the literal Hebrew meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "at evening" (ibn Ezra-literal meaning) OR "in the afternoon" as does Chabad's CJB (Rashi-Midrash) with respect to Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5. ...
Should Messianic Jews believe the Midrashic commentary and not to the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם that adds credibility to the B'rit Chadashah (NT) accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

As a Messianic Jew are you open to exploring the possibility that "in the afternoon" (Chabad CJB interpretation) is not the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם in Exodus 12:6 based ibn Ezra's literal meaning as well as that of other Hebrew scholars.

Will title the thread "Midrash Meaning OR Literal Hebrew Meaning" with respect to the first PassOver (Exodus 12). The thread will discuss the two interpretations being: "in the afternoon" (Midrash) and "at evening" (literal meaning).

We know that Rabbinic Judaism (Midrash) favors "in the afternoon" over a literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as expressed in many "Christian" Bibles (KJV) as "in the evening".

Midrash (Rabbi Rashi) or Literal Meaning (Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra)
Do you have a link to ibn Ezra's commentary in English? If not, can you quote exactly what his commentary says for Exodus 12:6?
 
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AbbaLove

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Jubilees 49:1 - Remember the commandment ... concerning the passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it ... on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and ... eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun.
Isn't this is referring to Leviticus 23:5 when YHVH ordained Pesach on the 14th and Unleavened Bread on the 15th. We all agree, just not a consensus whether the lambs to be killed didn't take place on Abib 14 until sunrise at the earliest or maybe not until noon at the earliest or not until "in the afternoon" on Abib 14? Did the timeline change from Exodus 12:6 to Leviticus 23:5 or not until the 1st or 2nd Temple period ... "in the afternoon" ?

So, this controversy begins in Egypt (Exodus 12:6) as to whether or not the Israelites start killing the lambs in the early evening at the beginning of Abib 14 or waited until the afternoon of Abib 14, "in the afternoon" as translated in Chabad's CJB ?

However, Deuteronomy further defines a more precise period within "between the two evening", that is, "at the going down of the sun". The sun is going down from noon -sunset. Therefore, that is more precise than just "Bein Ha'arabayim". The midpoint between noon and sunset is roughly 3:00 pm. That is the safest time that meets all the requirements of when the Passover is to be killed. Yeshua's death at 3:00 pm verifies this.
All well and good, but do you believe this is the same "in the afternoon" timeline as Exodus 12:6? Weren't the lambs being killed as early as "twilight" at the beginning of Abib 14 and then roasted before the first born Egyptians were killed later that very same night on the 14th? Therefore, doesn't it seem that Chabad's translation "in the afternoon" of Exodus 12:6 is open for debate and the possibility that "in the afternoon" is a mistranslation of בֵּין הָעַרְבָּיִם (Exodus 12:6) to satisfy a different timeline during the 2nd Temple period?

Again, the controversy around Exodus 12:6 is whether or not בֵּין הָעַרְבָּיִם is better translated as when the killing of the lambs commenced/began. Was it "in the evening", "between the evenings", "in the afternoon", or "at twilight" ? Which of these expressions best describes when YHVH instructed the Israelites to begin killing the lambs on Abib 14 during the first Passover in Egypt?

Assuming the first born Egyptians (including their livestock) were killed around midnight on Abib 14, then doesn't it make some sense that the Israelites begin slaughtering their lambs to be roasted at the beginning of Abib 14 and not "in the afternoon" ? Doesn't this then open the possibility that Yeshua and His Disciples enjoyed their Pesach meal during the evening of Abib 14 ...

Matthew 26:17
(CJB)
On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?
Mark 14:12 (CJB)
On the first day for matzah, when they slaughtered the lamb for Pesach, Yeshua’s talmidim asked him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare your Seder?”
Luke 22:7-9 (CJB)
7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.
8 Yeshua sent Kefa and Yochanan, instructing them, “Go and prepare our Seder, so we can eat.”
9 They asked him, “Where do you want us to prepare it?”​
 
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gadar perets

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All well and good, but do you believe this is the same "in the afternoon" timeline as Exodus 12:6? Weren't the lambs being killed as early as "twilight" at the beginning of Abib 14 and then roasted before the first born Egyptians were killed later that very same night on the 14th?
...
Assuming the first born Egyptians (including their livestock) were killed around midnight on Abib 14, then doesn't it make some sense that the Israelites begin slaughtering their lambs to be roasted at the beginning of Abib 14 and not "in the afternoon" ?
The firstborn of Egypt were killed on the night of Abib 15 and the children of Israel were set free that same night and left in haste that same night (Numbers 33:3).

Doesn't this then open the possibility that Yeshua and His Disciples enjoyed their Pesach meal during the evening of Abib 14 ...

Matthew 26:17
(CJB)
On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?
Mark 14:12 (CJB)
On the first day for matzah, when they slaughtered the lamb for Pesach, Yeshua’s talmidim asked him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare your Seder?”
Luke 22:7-9 (CJB)
7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.
8 Yeshua sent Kefa and Yochanan, instructing them, “Go and prepare our Seder, so we can eat.”
9 They asked him, “Where do you want us to prepare it?”​
If they had a seder, then they had it without a lamb and without their families in attendance.

Please answer post #148.
 
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Henaynei

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As previously posted Chabad has their own "Complete Jewish Bible" which as you might expect does not include the B'rit Chadashah (NT) account by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - English translation with Rashi's commentary
That is not "The Complete Jewish Bible", as previously noted, by Dr. David Stern
Theirs is a worthy volume, nonetheless it is not the one by the name and designation I have repeatedly mentioned.
Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra is considered as knowledgeable, if not more so, than Rashi when it comes to interpreting the literal Hebrew meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "at evening" (ibn Ezra-literal meaning) OR "in the afternoon" as does Chabad's CJB (Rashi-Midrash) with respect to Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23
Should Messianic Jews believe the Midrashic commentary and not to the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם that adds credibility to the B'rit Chadashah (NT) accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
1) when making such a blanket statement meant to bolster a point it is best to clearly qualify it.
Thus I need to ask you to specify, by Whom is Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra considered "as knowledgeable, if not more so, than Rashi..." please provide documentation.
2) I see no reason to not earnestly consider halakah and midrash. I generally only discount them when there is a clear variance with the Bible. And then I will consider it still as additional in light of PaRDES.

As a Messianic Jew are you open to exploring the possibility that "in the afternoon" (Chabad CJB interpretation) is not the literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם in Exodus 12:6 based ibn Ezra's literal meaning as well as that of other Hebrew scholars.

Will title the thread "Midrash Meaning OR Literal Hebrew Meaning" with respect to the first PassOver (Exodus 12). The thread will discuss the two interpretations being: "in the afternoon" (Midrash) and "at evening" (literal meaning).

We know that Rabbinic Judaism (Midrash) favors "in the afternoon" over a literal meaning of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as expressed in many "Christian" Bibles (KJV) as "in the evening".

Midrash (Rabbi Rashi) or Literal Meaning (Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra)
1) I have provided documentation at length that the plainest and least strained meaning is "between the evenings." This is based on the strongest and most frequent meaning of the 2 Hebrew words of this discussion as used in the Bible.
I do not take the interpretations of the "Christian bibles" as "gospel" either, but seek out additional resources, such as bible dictionaries and language concordances.
 
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AbbaLove

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That is not "The Complete Jewish Bible", as previously noted, by Dr. David Stern
Theirs is a worthy volume, nonetheless it is not the one by the name and designation i have repeatedly mentioned.
Yes, i most often quote from the CJB (Stern's translation) when posting scripture verses, so i knew you meant the CJB by Dr. Stern and not the CJB (Chabad's translation) with commentary by Rashi. However, since you earnestly consider halakah and midrash (Rabbinic Judaism) over "Christian bibles" had assumed you were familiar with Chabad's CJB (Tanakh minus the B'rit Chadashah). You gave the impression that you prefer Stern's translation "at dusk" than Chabad's translation "in the afternoon". Please forgive me if my posting of Chabad's CJB translation wasn't appreciated by you.
  • Stern's CJB translation of Exodus 12:6 ends with slaughter it "at" dusk (more in line with ibn Ezra's - "toward evening - sunset" interpretation)
  • Chabad's CJB translation of Exodus 12:6 ends with slaughter it "in the" afternoon (more in line with Rashi's commentary)
I have provided documentation at length that the plainest and least strained meaning is "between the evenings." This is based on the strongest and most frequent meaning of the 2 Hebrew words of this discussion as used in the Bible.
I do not take the interpretations of the "Christian bibles" as "gospel" either, but seek out additional resources, such as bible dictionaries and language concordances.
Then you should know that the plainest and least strained meaning of "at" and "in the" are the more literal translations of בֵּ֧ין than is the English word "between". Likewise you should know that the literal translation of הָעַרְבָּיִם is not the word "afternoon" according to the actual Hebrew word for "afternoon". See Judges 19:8 - "turning of the day", "until the day declined" aka "afternoon" (Chabad's CJB) ... Shoftim - Judges - Chapter 19

The word Hebrew word בֵּ֧ין in the Tanakh is never translated as the English word "between" when distinguishing between daytime and nighttime or sunrise to sunset or to "watches" or the time between morning to noon or noon to evening. Check it out with all the "between" occurrences in your Tanakh concordance if you don't trust Strong's Hebrew/Christian concordance. You won't find any translation of בֵּ֧ין rendered as "between" when referring to times/periods of daylight/evening unless you only prefer "Christian bibles" that agree with your preferred (Exodus 12:6) "between" such as the YLT, DARBY or LBT. So, do you now disagree with Dr. Stern's CJB translation of "at dusk" and instead now favor Chabad's CJB translation, "in the afternoon" ?? Curious minds would like to know :)

So are you finally coming around to gadar perets belief that the Passover lambs killed in Egypt were slaughtered "in the afternoon" on Abib 14, then roasted and eaten during the evening of Abib 15. He's almost got me convinced if it weren't for the following accounts in Dr. Stern's Jewish/Christian Bible ...

Matthew 26:17 (CJB)
On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?
Mark 14:12 (CJB)
On the first day for matzah, when they slaughtered the lamb for Pesach, Yeshua’s talmidim asked him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare your Seder?”
Luke 22:7-9 (CJB)
7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.
8 Yeshua sent Kefa and Yochanan, instructing them, “Go and prepare our Seder, so we can eat.”
9 They asked him, “Where do you want us to prepare it?”
It is interesting how different Sages argue different points of view. This is exactly the way of the Talmud.
Not arguing - just discussing ;).

Jewish Rabbi Reveals Yeshua (Jesus)
in the Passover

 
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AbbaLove

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The video you posted was inappropriate for a audience of Yeshua's disciples. The least you could have done was warn us of the language so we could choose not to listen to it.
So, why then did you attach the video to your post? I thought you might add something like, "Couldn't you find a more appropriate youtube". Coach Jimmy was "chastising her too vehemently" to the point that Evelyn started crying. Real men don't cry no matter how vehemently they might be chastised by a coach. Was the following inappropriate for Yeshua's Mother and His Disciples.

Yeshayahu 53:7 (Chabad CJB)
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.​
 
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gadar perets

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So, why then did you attach the video to your post? I thought you might add something like, "Couldn't you find a more appropriate youtube". Coach Jimmy was "chastising her too vehemently" to the point that Evelyn started crying. Real men don't cry no matter how vehemently they might be chastised by a coach. Was the following inappropriate for Yeshua's Mother and His Disciples.

Yeshayahu 53:7 (Chabad CJB)
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.​
I attached it so people would know which video had all those curse words that you subjected us to. I can't believe you are defending yourself. A simple apology would suffice.

*I just noticed you deleted the video, so I deleted my attachment of it.
 
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AbbaLove

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James Bejon said:

Acc. to Exod. 12.6, Passover lambs are to be killed at ‘twilight’ (lit. ‘between the eves’). The phrase ‘between the eves’ is an unusual one. Acc. to Ibn Ezra, the time when the sun first begins to descend (beneath the horizon) denotes ‘the first eve’, and the ‘second eve’ begins when the sun’s light can no longer be seen (Ibn Ezra on Exod. 12.6). So, the period ‘between the eves’ denotes ‘twilight’--i.e., the period just before dusk--, which seems consistent with the LXX’s translation of bên hāʿarbayim as deilē prōia (‘towards [the] eve’). It is also consistent with Deut. 16.6, where the Passover sacrifice is said to take place kĕbôʾ haššemeš (‘once the sun goes [down]’ cf. Gen. 28.11, Deut. 23.11, 24.13, etc.). Exactly how the Passover has been observed in practice is another matter. Josephus says the Passover lambs were typically slain between 3 and 5 p.m. (J.W. 6.9.3), while the Mishna (m. Pes. 5.3) appears to permit sacrifices from noon onwards (on the basis of Exod. 12.6).
The question still lingers ... were the lambs of Exodus 12:6 slain on Abib 14 or 15 ?? ...
1) between noon and 6 pm on Abib 14 when Yeshua was killed between 2 - 3 pm
2) 'towards [the] eve' (e.g. golden hour) while it was still Abib 14

3)
at dusk [after sunset] at the beginning of Abib 15

Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern's CJB)
“‘You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Shemot 12:6 (Chabad's CJB)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

Numbers 33:3 (Dr. Stern's CJB)
They began their journey from Ram’ses in the first month. On the fifteenth day of the first month, the morning after the Pesach, the people of Isra’el left proudly in view of all the Egyptians;
Bamidbar 33:3 (Chabad's CJB)
They journeyed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the day following the Passover sacrifice, the children of Israel left triumphantly before the eyes of all the Egyptians.
If that is so, then the ENTIRE night and day of Nisan 14 is Pesach?
Is that how the Israelites in Exodus understood it?
Is it how it was taken in the 2nd temple period?
Modern legislation is not important. Ancient Jewish understanding is.
 
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gadar perets

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The word Hebrew word בֵּ֧ין in the Tanakh is never translated as the English word "between" when distinguishing between daytime and nighttime or sunrise to sunset or to "watches" or the time between morning to noon or noon to evening. Check it out with all the "between" occurrences in your Tanakh concordance if you don't trust Strong's Hebrew/Christian concordance. You won't find any translation of בֵּ֧ין rendered as "between" when referring to times/periods of daylight/evening unless you only prefer "Christian bibles" that agree with your preferred (Exodus 12:6) "between" such as the YLT, DARBY or LBT.
Here are three that use "between the evenings".

From Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible
I couldn't get them to paste correctly, so just go to the link and click on Exodus 12:6; 29:39; 29:41 and Leviticus 23:5. Here is a screen shot of Exodus 12:6:

upload_2017-4-30_16-29-20-png.195704


From the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (I am only posting Exodus 12:6, but the other three references above read the same).

upload_2017-4-30_16-23-17-png.195703


From here (all four references read the same).

6. w’hayah lakem l’mish’mereth `ad ‘ar’ba`ah `asar yom lachodesh hazeh
w’shachatu ‘otho kol q’hal `adath-Yis’ra’El beyn ha`ar’bayim.

Ex12:6 It shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month,
then the whole assembly of the congregation of Yisrael is to kill it between the evenings.
 
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gadar perets

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James Bejon said:

Acc. to Exod. 12.6, Passover lambs are to be killed at ‘twilight’ (lit. ‘between the eves’). The phrase ‘between the eves’ is an unusual one. Acc. to Ibn Ezra, the time when the sun first begins to descend (beneath the horizon) denotes ‘the first eve’, and the ‘second eve’ begins when the sun’s light can no longer be seen (Ibn Ezra on Exod. 12.6). So, the period ‘between the eves’ denotes ‘twilight’--i.e., the period just before dusk--, which seems consistent with the LXX’s translation of bên hāʿarbayim as deilē prōia (‘towards [the] eve’). It is also consistent with Deut. 16.6, where the Passover sacrifice is said to take place kĕbôʾ haššemeš (‘once the sun goes [down]’ cf. Gen. 28.11, Deut. 23.11, 24.13, etc.). Exactly how the Passover has been observed in practice is another matter. Josephus says the Passover lambs were typically slain between 3 and 5 p.m. (J.W. 6.9.3), while the Mishna (m. Pes. 5.3) appears to permit sacrifices from noon onwards (on the basis of Exod. 12.6).
I would like to see Ibn Ezra's words, not some commentators interpretation of what Ibn Ezra said. Why is "(beneath the horizon)" in parenthesis? Whose words are they? Please provide his exact words or a link to Ibn Ezra's commentary.
 
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AbbaLove

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That is why I posted Rashi's commentary. *To show you translations and commentaries are not helpful. What is helpful is how "beyn ha'arbayim" was used in Scripture.
Certainly not as "between sunset to sunset" or "between sunrise to sunset" or "between noon to 6 pm".
I would like to see Ibn Ezra's words, not some commentators interpretation of what Ibn Ezra said. Why is "(beneath the horizon)" in parenthesis? Whose words are they? *Please provide his exact words or a link to Ibn Ezra's commentary.
*Remember, you said you don't believe translations and commentaries are helpful. You only believe translations that agree with your bias.
Acc. to Ibn Ezra, the time when the sun first begins to descend (beneath the horizon) denotes ‘the first eve’, and the ‘second eve’ begins when the sun’s light can no longer be seen (Ibn Ezra on Exod. 12.6)
You're already set in your ways [sunset to sunset or noon to 6 pm] so you would only want to argue with Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra's interpretation to refute what you consider is his bias. Your incorrect example of "between" only goes to show that your bias is influenced by a scant number of English Bible translations that you've previously said "are not helpful" and yet you agree with their bias ;)

Your above Hebrew-to-English example is based on the 2nd Temple interpretation; whereas, these two Hebrew-to-English translations are based on the first Passover (Exodus 12:6) See following links ...


You mistakenly believe "beyn" ha'arbayim is best translated as "between" in Exodus 12:6. The Hebrew word "בֵּ֧ין" should not be translated as "between" when referring to a certain part of a day. It only causes confusion. Instead you'd be better off translating "ha'arbayim" as "afternoon" and "beyn/ben" as: "among" "from" or "at".

Check out all the "between" occurrences in this Hebrew-to-English concordance and you'll find words such as ... "from" "among" "in" "at" ... but ... never "between" when referring to any timeline such as from sunrise to sunset or sunset to sunset. Here are 167 occurrences of "בֵּ֧ין" in the Tanakh [ Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences ] ... as proof that "בֵּ֧ין" should not be translated as "between" when referring to a timeline ...

Your trust in a few Christian Bible translations with "between" [sunset to sunset] is not representative of other Hebrew-to-English concordance translations or pro-Jewish Bibles. The misappropriation of "between" [e.g. sunset to sunset, sunrise to sunset or noon to 6 pm] only adds confusion when compared to pro-Jewish Bible translations relative to the FIRST Passover

Exodus 12:6 (Dr. Stern's Complete Jewish Bible)
You are to keep it until the fourteenth day of the month, and then the entire assembly of the community of Isra’el will slaughter it at dusk.
Shemot 12:6 (Chabad's Complete Jewish Bible)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of th"is month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.
Shemot 12:6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
And it will be with you for mishmeret (examination, checking for blemishes) up until the fourteenth day of the same month; and kol Kehal Adat Yisroel shall slaughter (shachat) it in the afternoon [before dark].
Exodus 12:6 (JPS Bible 1917)
and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.
בֵּ֧ין ... "from" "among" "in" "at"
never "between"
( when referring to a timeline in the Tanakh (e.g. Exodus 12:6 )

>>> Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences <<<
 
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gadar perets

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Certainly not as "between sunset to sunset" or "between sunrise to sunset" or "between noon to 6 pm".
*Remember, you said you don't believe translations and commentaries are helpful. You only believe translations that agree with your bias.
The only reason I want to see Ezra's commentary is because you are pushing it so much, but I don't believe what you say about his belief. I want to verify it, but you have repeatedly failed to provide his commentary.

You're already set in your ways [sunset to sunset or noon to 6 pm] so you would only want to argue with Rabbi Abraham ibn Ezra's interpretation to refute what you consider is his bias.
You repeatedly misrepresent my view of this issue because you can't refute it. I do not espouse sunset to sunset or noon to 6 pm. Those are views that you love to put in my mouth. Sunrise to sunset = between the evenings. If you look at my graphic in post#141, you will see how simple this is.

Your above Hebrew-to-English example is based on the 2nd Temple interpretation; whereas, these two Hebrew-to-English translations are based on the first Passover (Exodus 12:6)
You have no proof of these statements whatsoever. Just wishful thinking.

Check out all the "between" occurrences in this Hebrew-to-English concordance and you'll find words such as ... "from" "among" "in" "at" ... but ... never "between" when referring to any timeline such as from sunrise to sunset or sunset to sunset. Here are 167 occurrences of "בֵּ֧ין" in the Tanakh [ Hebrew Concordance: bên -- 167 Occurrences ] ... as proof that "בֵּ֧ין" should not be translated as "between" when referring to a timeline ...
Thanks for the link. it was very helpful to proof my view. If you click on "Summary" at that link you will see the NAS word count. Here it is:

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from bin
Definition
an interval, space between
NASB Translation
above* (1), among (30), among* (1), between (204), champion* (2), either (2), forehead* (5), midst (3), once (1), or (1), whether (1), within (1).

Notice it is never translated "from" "in" or "at".
 
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