Passover and Unleavened Bread

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

visionary said:
Back to the original question... Which is correct for the 7 days: 14th-20th or 15th-21st?

start of 15th to the end of the 21st

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

AbbaLove said:
In both Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5 Pesach is on the evening of the 14th. In Exodus 12:6 the assumption is that Unleavened Bread was prepared on the 14th for their hasty departure on the 15th ...

Exouds 12:11 "Here is how you must eat it: you must be dressed for travel, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. You are to eat it in a hurry; it is the Lord’s Passover."

Because of their haste there wasn't time to prepare leavened bread ... only unleavened bread, probably baking some the night of the 14th and again on the 15th. They were preoccupied packing up the Egyptian tribute with their belongings before departing from Rameses on the 15th.

They did not take baked bread when they left Egypt. They only took raw dough (Exodus 12:34). It only takes several hours to leaven dough. If Pharaoh let them go the night of the 14th, then they had at least 12-15 hours for their bread to rise. That is not leaving "in haste". It is so obvious that they left on the night of the 15th after killing the lambs on the afternoon of the 14th.

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

visionary said:
Deut 16:5 “You may not sacrifice the Passover within any of your gates which the LORD your God gives you; 6 but at the place where the LORD your God chooses to make His name abide, there you shall sacrifice the Passover [14th] at twilight [עֶ֫רֶב, not נֶ֫שֶׁף], at the going down of the sun, at the time [or assembly for?] you came out of Egypt.

The English translation is "at evening" ereb/בערבH6153, not "twilight".

Henaynei · Apr 30, 2017

James Bejon said:
Dear All. A few quick comments in case they’re of any help. Acc. to Exod. 12.6, Passover lambs are to be killed at ‘twilight’ (lit. ‘between the eves’). The phrase ‘between the eves’ is an unusual one. Acc. to Ibn Ezra, the time when the sun first begins to descend (beneath the horizon) denotes ‘the first eve’, and the ‘second eve’ begins when the sun’s light can no longer be seen (Ibn Ezra on Exod. 12.6). So, the period ‘between the eves’ denotes ‘twilight’--i.e., the period just before dusk--, which seems consistent with the LXX’s translation of bên hāʿarbayim as deilē prōia (‘towards [the] eve’). It is also consistent with Deut. 16.6, where the Passover sacrifice is said to take place kĕbôʾ haššemeš (‘once the sun goes [down]’ cf. Gen. 28.11, Deut. 23.11, 24.13, etc.). Exactly how the Passover has been observed in practice is another matter. Josephus says the Passover lambs were typically slain between 3 and 5 p.m. (J.W. 6.9.3), while the Mishna (m. Pes. 5.3) appears to permit sacrifices from noon onwards (on the basis of Exod. 12.6).

Hope that helps,

James.

well done!

Henaynei · Apr 30, 2017

it is worth noting, from a practical POV, that it takes several hours to cook a whole lamb.
might this not figure into when the lamb was killed, as relates to when it had to be eaten?

AbbaLove · Apr 30, 2017

gadar perets said:
I never said it means between noon and 6 pm. Those are your words that you put in my mouth over and over again.

Au Contraire! You previously implied/said that the 1st evening begins at the decline of the afternoon sun beginning at 12 pm with the 2nd of the "between the two evenings" being at beginning at 3 pm or 5 pm and later 6 pm. It pleases me that you finally realized that from noon to 6 pm is pretty far-fetched when it comes to interpreting the meaning of "between the [two] evenings.

Apparently you never intended to address that portion of my previous post which you've somehow overlooked two times. Perhaps the third time is the charm so will give it one more try ...
_______________

There are Torah verses where “בֵּ֧ין” is interpreted as “between” but seldom if ever when referring to the "evening" (or “twilight”) transition between daytime and nighttime ... as noon to 6 pm (wrong). The following are just a few of the many examples of how “בֵּ֧ין” should be used (right) when meaning "between" ...

Genesis 9:16 - covenant between (“בֵּ֧ין”) God and man.
Genesis 13:7 - And there was strife between (“בֵּ֧ין”) the herdsmen.
Exodus 11:7 - makes a distinction between (“בֵּ֧ין”) Egyptians and Isra’el.
Exodus 14:20 - So it came between (“בֵּ֧ין”) the camp of Egypt

The reason you find it difficult to disagree is possibly because you can't find several examples in a Hebrew-to-English interlinear Bibles where “בֵּ֧ין” is used frequently to distinguish the two evenings as meaning "between" (noon and 6 pm). The proper translation of “בֵּ֧ין” (bên) is "at" when referring to a specific time of day as “הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם” (hā·‘ar·bā·yim) when referring to waning daylight; e.g. 12th hour (6 pm) to 7:08 pm (sundown). Twilight is also from sundown until the first three stars are visible (between the evenings). This translation interpretation makes much more sense than does "הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם" meaning "afternoon from noon to 6 pm". The word "הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם" is never translated as also meaning afternoon = "נטות".
_______________

So, your challenge gadar perets (should you finally accept) is to see if you can find several examples in different Hebrew-to-English Interlinear Bibles where “בֵּ֧ין” is most often translated as "between" (noon and 6 PM) instead of "at" (evening) or "at" (twilight) when referring to a specific period of waning daylight; e.g. afternoon declining sun. It's apparent why you passedover the above portion of my previous post two times being hard pressed to validate your mistaken belief that “הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם” (hā·‘ar·bā·yim) should be interpreted as the declining afternoon ("נטות") daylight from noon to 6 pm.

If you decide not to reply will assume that you have backed off from your previous stance that "between the [two] evenings" possibly could be interpreted as from the first decline of the afternoon sun (1st evening) to 6 pm (2nd evening).

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

AbbaLove said:
Au Contraire! You previously implied/said that the 1st evening begins at the decline of the afternoon sun beginning at 12 pm with the 2nd of the "between the two evenings" being at beginning at 3 pm or 5 pm and later 6 pm. It pleases me that you finally realized that from noon to 6 pm is pretty far-fetched when it comes to interpreting the meaning of "between the [two] evenings.

I did not say "between the evenings" is from noon -6 pm. I said "at the going down of the sun" in Deuteronomy 16:6 meant from noon-sunset. Nor do I believe 3 pm or 5 pm starts the second evening. The second evening starts at sunset. 3:00 pm is simply the midpoint of "at the going down of the sun".

Apparently you never intended to address that portion of my previous post which you've somehow overlooked two times. Perhaps the third time is the charm so will give it one more try ...
_______________

There are Torah verses where “בֵּ֧ין” is interpreted as “between” but seldom if ever when referring to the "evening" (or “twilight”) transition between daytime and nighttime ... as noon to 6 pm (wrong). The following are just a few of the many examples of how “בֵּ֧ין” should be used (right) when meaning "between" ...

Genesis 9:16 - covenant between (“בֵּ֧ין”) God and man.
Genesis 13:7 - And there was strife between (“בֵּ֧ין”) the herdsmen.
Exodus 11:7 - makes a distinction between (“בֵּ֧ין”) Egyptians and Isra’el.
Exodus 14:20 - So it came between (“בֵּ֧ין”) the camp of Egypt

The reason you find it difficult to disagree is possibly because you can't find several examples in a Hebrew-to-English interlinear Bibles where “בֵּ֧ין” is used frequently to distinguish the two evenings as meaning "between" (noon and 6 pm). The proper translation of “בֵּ֧ין” (bên) is "at" when referring to a specific time of day as “הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם” (hā·‘ar·bā·yim) when referring to waning daylight; e.g. 12th hour (6 pm) to 7:08 pm (sundown). Twilight is also from sundown until the first three stars are visible (between the evenings). This translation interpretation makes much more sense than does "הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם" meaning "afternoon from noon to 6 pm". The word "הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם" is never translated as also meaning afternoon = "נטות".
_______________

So, your challenge gadar perets (should you finally accept) is to see if you can find several examples in different Hebrew-to-English Interlinear Bibles where “בֵּ֧ין” is most often translated as "between" (noon and 6 PM) instead of "at" (evening) or "at" (twilight) when referring to a specific period of waning daylight; e.g. afternoon declining sun. It's apparent why you passedover the above portion of my previous post two times being hard pressed to validate your mistaken belief that “הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם” (hā·‘ar·bā·yim) should be interpreted as the declining afternoon ("נטות") daylight from noon to 6 pm.

If you decide not to reply will assume that you have backed off from your previous stance that "between the [two] evenings" possibly could be interpreted as from the first decline of the afternoon sun (1st evening) to 6 pm (2nd evening).

I give up AbbaLove. Why do I bother spending so much time to teach you and answer all your questions if you don't read my posts? Somehow, you managed to read the first part of my post #119, but shut your eyes to the second part.

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

Henaynei said:
well done!

Exodus 12:6 And it shall be kept by you till the fourteenth of this month, and all the multitude of the congregation of the children of Israel shall kill it toward evening.LXX

"Toward evening" is before evening begins. Therefore, the Septuagint rightly interprets "beyn ha'arbayim as a time before sunset when the second evening begins on Abib 15.

Also, the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 16:6 does not translate as ‘once the sun goes [down]’.

Henaynei · Apr 30, 2017

AbbaLove said:
Au Contraire! You previously implied/said that the 1st evening begins at the decline of the afternoon sun beginning at 12 pm with the 2nd of the "between the two evenings" being at beginning at 3 pm or 5 pm and later 6 pm. It pleases me that you finally realized that from noon to 6 pm is pretty far-fetched when it comes to interpreting the meaning of "between the [two] evenings.

Apparently, you never intended to address that portion of my previous post which you've somehow overlooked two times. Perhaps the third time is the charm so will give it one more try ...
_______________

There are Torah verses where “בֵּ֧ין” is interpreted as “between” but seldom if ever when referring to the "evening" (or “twilight”) transition between daytime and nighttime ... as noon to 6 pm (wrong). The following are just a few of the many examples of how “בֵּ֧ין” should be used (right) when meaning "between" ...

Genesis 9:16 - covenant between (“בֵּ֧ין”) God and man.
Genesis 13:7 - And there was strife between (“בֵּ֧ין”) the herdsmen.
Exodus 11:7 - makes a distinction between (“בֵּ֧ין”) Egyptians and Isra’el.
Exodus 14:20 - So it came between (“בֵּ֧ין”) the camp of Egypt

The reason you find it difficult to disagree is possibly because you can't find several examples in a Hebrew-to-English interlinear Bibles where “בֵּ֧ין” is used frequently to distinguish the two evenings as meaning "between" (noon and 6 pm). The proper translation of “בֵּ֧ין” (bên) is "at" when referring to a specific time of day as “הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם” (hā·‘ar·bā·yim) when referring to waning daylight; e.g. 12th hour (6 pm) to 7:08 pm (sundown). Twilight is also from sundown until the first three stars are visible (between the evenings). This translation interpretation makes much more sense than does "הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם" meaning "afternoon from noon to 6 pm". The word "הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם" is never translated as also meaning afternoon = "נטות".
_______________

So, your challenge gadar perets (should you finally accept) is to see if you can find several examples in different Hebrew-to-English Interlinear Bibles where “בֵּ֧ין” is most often translated as "between" (noon and 6 PM) instead of "at" (evening) or "at" (twilight) when referring to a specific period of waning daylight; e.g. afternoon declining sun. It's apparent why you passed over the above portion of my previous post two times being hard pressed to validate your mistaken belief that “הָֽעֲרְבַּ֛יִם” (hā·‘ar·bā·yim) should be interpreted as the declining afternoon ("נטות") daylight from noon to 6 pm.

If you decide not to reply will assume that you have backed off from your previous stance that "between the [two] evenings" possibly could be interpreted as from the first decline of the afternoon sun (1st evening) to 6 pm (2nd evening).

the word some translations use "dusk" is actually erev (Strongs - 6153) in the Hebrew.
In common usage, erev is the whole day "before", as in Erev Shabbat is Friday.
And as for "between":

996 bayin: an interval, space between
Original Word: בֵּין
Part of Speech: substantive; preposition
Transliteration: bayin
Phonetic Spelling: (bane)
Short Definition: between
Genesis 3:15 - 4 times in that verse
Genesis 9:12 - 3 times in that verse
Genesis 9:13 - 2 times in that verse
Genesis 9:16 - 2 times in that verse
there are over 400 times it is used, the vast majority of times it is translated "between"
***also translated "from"
Genesis 1:4 - 2 times in that verse
Genesis 1:7
Genesis 1:14
Genesis 1:18
and also....
997 ben: between
Original Word: בֵּין
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ben
Phonetic Spelling: (bane)
Short Definition: among
Daniel 7:5 - as "between"

Thus I'd have to say, given the above translation history and the historical use of erev in the Jewish community, that "between the evenings" most likely means from "one evening to the next" with evening meaning the simplest and straightforward use - evening/dark of one day to evening/dark of the next day

between erev(s)

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

Henaynei said:
it is worth noting, from a practical POV, that it takes several hours to cook a whole lamb.
might this not figure into when the lamb was killed, as relates to when it had to be eaten?

Good point. The video/article here says it takes 8 hours. If the Israelites started cooking around 7:00 pm, they would only have 5 hours to finish cooking and eating before the 10th plague started at midnight. If the cooking started at around 4:00, that gave them 8 hours.

Henaynei · Apr 30, 2017

gadar perets said:
Exodus 12:6 And it shall be kept by you till the fourteenth of this month, and all the multitude of the congregation of the children of Israel shall kill it toward evening.LXX

"Toward evening" is before evening begins. Therefore, the Septuagint rightly interprets "beyn ha'arbayim as a time before sunset when the second evening begins on Abib 15.

Also, the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 16:6 does not translate as ‘once the sun goes [down]’.

the Hebrew is the word erev (well, actually the plural, erevim)
6153 ereb/v: evening
Original Word: עָ֫רֶב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ereb/v
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-reb)
Short Definition: evening-
this is used in Jewish community many ways one of which is as in "erev Shabbat" which is the entire day from sunset Thursday to sunset Friday. So given the translations of the word עָ֫רֶב = erev/evening and בֵּין = an interval/space between - I'm going with sunset to sunset...

"beyn ha'erevim/ha'arbaim" בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם
When asked to translate "between the evenings" the translator says "בין בערבים".
hmmmmm....

gadar perets · Apr 30, 2017

Henaynei said:
the Hebrew is the word erev (well, actually the plural, erevim)
6153 ereb/v: evening
Original Word: עָ֫רֶב
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ereb/v
Phonetic Spelling: (eh'-reb)
Short Definition: evening-
this is used in Jewish community many ways one of which is as in "erev Shabbat" which is the entire day from sunset Thursday to sunset Friday. So given the translations of the word עָ֫רֶב = erev/evening and בֵּין = an interval/space between - I'm going with sunset to sunset... "beyn ha'erevim/ha'arbaim" בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם
When asked to translate "between the evenings" the translator says "בין בערבים".
hmmmmm....

How can it be sunset to sunset? That would be anytime during a 24 hour day. I understand it to mean from the end of one evening (sunrise) to the start of the next evening (sunset). In other words, during the daylight hours.

Open Heart · Apr 30, 2017

AbbaLove said:
The "at twilight" in Exodus 12:6 is approximately one hour (golden hour before sundown) from the 12th hour (6 pm) until sundown at 7 pm in mid-April (Abib 13/14).

Since when is twilight when the sun is still in the sky? Please quote and cite.

Henaynei · Apr 30, 2017

gadar perets said:
How can it be sunset to sunset? That would be anytime during a 24 hour day. I understand it to mean from the end of one evening (sunrise) to the start of the next evening (sunset). In other words, during the daylight hours.

I'll not contend sunset to sunset vs sunrise to sunset. I could not defend one over the other with my present knowledge. But, indeed it was a rather long time - remember they had to slaughter thousands of lambs. Not something that could be done in an hour or two...

gadar perets · May 1, 2017

Henaynei said:
I'll not contend sunset to sunset vs sunrise to sunset. I could not defend one over the other with my present knowledge. But, indeed it was a rather long time - remember they had to slaughter thousands of lambs. Not something that could be done in an hour or two...

Ok, just know that if sunset to sunset is used, then that cannot be "between" the evenings, but possibly "in the evening".

visionary · May 1, 2017

In Hebraic thought, evening twilight is understood as a transitional period between day and night. It is currently understood that it is evening twilight as long as two stars of medium magnitude are visible, but it is night upon the appearance of a third star of medium magnitude. In ancient times, some understood that night begins in a moment in time which is impossible to determine called the twinkling of an eye. This is interesting, as Paul prophesied that the righteous would be resurrected in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a secret; We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul's use of the phrase the twinkling of an eye aligns perfectly with the ancient understanding. The exact moment night begins therefore remains a little mysterious in Hebraic thought. In contrast, the modern world subdivides evening twilight into three definitive subcategories. Evening civil twilight begins at sunset and ends when the center of the sun is 6° below the horizon.

AbbaLove · May 1, 2017

Open Heart said:
Since when is twilight when the sun is still in the sky? Please quote and cite.

Much of this discussion is over the last two words in Exodus 12:6 as understood and recorded by Moses. So, translators over centuries have agreed and disagreed as what English words that best interpret the Hebrew expression ...

בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם

Shemot 12:6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
And it will be with you for mishmeret (examination, checking for blemishes) up until the fourteenth day of the same month; and kol Kehal Adat Yisroel shall slaughter (shachat) it in the afternoon [before dark].

Because a Hebrew day begins at sunset its likely that Moses would have used some word or phrase for communicating that period of waning daylight before sunset.

EVENING
˓ereb (עֶרֶב, 6153), “evening, night.” The noun ˓ereb appears about 130 times and in all periods. This word represents the time of the day immediately *preceding and following the setting of the sun. During this period, the dove returned to Noah’s ark (Gen. 8:11). Since it was cool, women went to the wells for water in the “evening” (Gen. 24:11). It was at “evening” that David walked around on top of his roof to refresh himself and cool off, and observed Bathsheba taking a bath (2 Sam. 11:2). In its first biblical appearance, ˓ereb marks the “opening of a day”: “And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Gen. 1:5). The phrase “between the evenings” means the period between sunset and darkness, “twilight” (Exod. 12:6; KJV, “in the evening”).
How to celebrate Pesach and the Feast of Unleavened Bread | Set Apart People

This prolific Exodus 12:6 discussion has come down to whether or not the phrase "between the evenings" just adds more confusion (yes it does) as we are now witnessing from the previous three posts "between the evenings" from your post and this post (8:57 pm, April 30 ... to .... May 1, 12:39 pm CDT).

AbbaLove · May 1, 2017

Henaynei said:
When asked to translate "between the evenings" the translator says "בין בערבים".
hmmmmm....

Henaynei said:
I'll not contend sunset to sunset vs sunrise to sunset. I could not defend one over the other with my present knowledge.

Welcome Aboard! Your previous two replies are misdirection initiated by another member who holds to the timeline introduced by the Pharisees during the 2nd Temple period and perpetuated by Rabbinic Judaism.

Were the lambs sacrificed in Egypt killed between sunset to sunset?
Were the lambs sacrificed at Gilgal killed between sunrise to sunset?
Were the lambs sacrificed in Jerusalem (Lev 23:5) killed between noon to 5 pm?

Should Messianic Jews better believe a "between the evenings" timeline introduced by the Pharisees ... OR ... better believe an "at evening" timeline as ordained by YHVH in Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5?

Henaynei · May 1, 2017

gadar perets said:
Ok, just know that if sunset to sunset is used, then that cannot be "between" the evenings, but possibly "in the evening".

Sunset starting the evening of Nisan 14 to sunset starting the evening of Nisan 15 - would indeed be "between the evenings."

Henaynei · May 1, 2017

AbbaLove said:
Welcome Aboard! Your previous two replies are misdirection initiated by another member who holds to the timeline introduced by the Pharisees during the 2nd Temple period and perpetuated by Rabbinic Judaism.

Were the lambs sacrificed in Egypt killed between sunset to sunset?
Were the lambs sacrificed at Gilgal killed between sunrise to sunset?
Were the lambs sacrificed in Jerusalem (Lev 23:5) killed between noon to 5 pm?

Should Messianic Jews better believe a "between the evenings" timeline introduced by the Pharisees ... OR ... better believe an "at evening" timeline as ordained by YHVH in Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5?

Actually, I was working from the Hebrew in the Exodus passage and neither the Pharisaic nor the Sadducean POV.
But in the interest of full disclosure neither, do I discount the wisdom of the Rabbis.

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