Sunday Sabbath

Open Heart

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From the first link:

I believe I have translated verse 14.1 in the Didache, properly below (with two options):

According to the Lord's way, even the Lord's.

or

According to the Lordly {way}, even the Lord's.

However, it has normally been incorrectly translated by many Protestant scholars. Here are two examples:

"On the Lord's day of the Lord," by Kirsopp Lake [7].

"But every Lord's day," by Hall and Napier [8].

There are at least two reasons that the above by Lake, as well as Hall & Napier, can be shown to be mistranslated.

The first is that the translators should have realized that the Greek term for "day" (ἡμέρᾳ) is missing in verse 14.1 [9] and is not required by the context.

The second is how each of them began the translation of this particular verse. The beginning in both translations is in error and is inconsistent with the translators other translations in this letter.

The Greek word translated in verse 14.1 as "On the" by Kirsopp Lake and "But every" by Hall and Napier (Κατὰ) truly does mean "According to" as I have translated it. Κατα should not be translated as "On the" or "But every."

The Greek word Κατὰ is translated as "according to" by Kirsopp Lake five times (1.5, 11.3, 12.4, 13.5, and 13.7 [10]) and "with respect" one time (4.10). The other times Lake used the term "on" (verses 1.4, 7.3, 8.1a, 8.1b, 11.12, 16.8 [11]), it was NOT a translation from the Greek term Κατὰ.

Also the one time the Didache uses "on" with a day (which is in the translations of both Lake and Hall/Napier), it does not use Κατὰ, but it does include the Greek term for day (verse 8.1b) [12].

It may be of interest to note that in the KJV New Testament, Κατα is translated as "according to" approximately 110 times, and the only time (Acts 8:36) it is inaccurately translated as "on" it is not translated as "on" in the NKJV or NIV.

Hall and Napier translated Κατὰ as "according to" the six other times it is translated that SAME letter (see verses 1.5, 4.10, 11.3, 12.4, 13.5, and 13.7 [13]) and never translated it as "But every." The one other time Hall and Napier used the term "But every" (verse 13.1) while translating the Didache it is not translated from the term Κατὰ [14]. Also, it may be of interest to note that the KJV never translated Κατὰ as "but every."

Hence it appears that several translators intentionally exercised bias when translating verse 14.1​

And ...

John Kitto also made the following comments about the passage from Ignatius:​

Now many commentators assume (on what ground does not appear), that alter κυριακήν [Lord’s] the word ἡμέραν [day] is to be understood… The defect of the sentence is the want of a substantive to which άvroύ can refer. This defect, so far from being- remedied, is rendered still more glaring by the introduction of ἡμέραν…the passage does not refer at all to the Lord’s day…it cannot be regarded as affording any positive evidence to the early use of the term ‘Lord’s day’ (for which it is often cited), since the word ἡμέραν [day] is purely conjectual [24].
The second link analyzes the Greek of Ignatius to show the translation "Lord's Day" is wrong. It is not a long read and I could not do it justice by citing various sentences. It is not a long read, but it is certainly a beneficial read to understand the issue and how anti-sabbath bias has crept into the translations that use "Lord's Day".​
I have no idea what the significance is of the Didache using the phrase "but every" unless it is to mean "rather than some other day you might expect." (Such as the Sabbath."

When I refer to Ignatius, I'm referring to THIS quote:
" no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day" which your quotes do nothing to say otherwise.

Nor do you offer any quotes from ECF where they say that the Lord's Day is the Sabbath, or that they meet regularly on the Sabbath to break bread.
 
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Henaynei

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Nope. Revelation mentions the Lord's Day, which we know from Ignatius means the first day of the week. The Didache, written in the latter days of the Apostles, records regular Lord's Day/First Day worship.
"In Rev. 1:10, the apostle John, used kyriake hemera ("I was in the Spirit on the L-rd's Day") in a way apparently familiar to his readers. Observers of first-day worship hold that this means he was worshiping on Sunday, resurrection day. Seventh-day Sabbatarians hold that since Jesus said he was "L-rd of the Sabbath" (Matt 12:8) and that Isaiah (58:13-14) called the Sabbath the "L-rd's Holy Day" then the L-rd's Day is the Seventh-day Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). Both parties accordingly use this verse to lay claim to the name "L-rd's Day" for their day of worship."

Note also that Ignatius was deliberately castigating, vilifying, rejecting and ostracizing the Jewish believers:
"Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace ... If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing Sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny ... how shall we be able to live apart from Him? ... It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity." — Ignatius to the Magnesians 8:1, 9:1-2, 10:3, Lightfoot translation.

So to codify rejection of Judaism as their foundation Gentile believers were strongly urged to reject the practices that had characterized the believing community since Yeshua's resurrection until that time.
I, for one, only give weight to Ignatius in so far as a means to document the beginnings of anti-Semitism and supersessionism in the "Church".
 
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Henaynei

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Nope. Revelation mentions the Lord's Day, which we know from Ignatius means the first day of the week. The Didache, written in the latter days of the Apostles, records regular Lord's Day/First Day worship.
the Didache is Very loosely dated to sometime in the first century... and most of the Disciples were dead well before the middle of the century, And there is No evidence that any of the original Disciples or Apostles wrote it. It does state that it is the "Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" but that by NO means does mean that any of them wrote it OR that it actually WAS of their teaching for there is a preponderance of proof in Scripture that all the original believers not only kept the 7th day Sabbath, not Sunday, but they also kept all of Torah including the commanded sacrifices.
 
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Open Heart

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the Didache is Very loosely dated to sometime in the first century... and most of the Disciples were dead well before the middle of the century, And there is No evidence that any of the original Disciples or Apostles wrote it. It does state that it is the "Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" but that by NO means does mean that any of them wrote it OR that it actually WAS of their teaching for there is a preponderance of proof in Scripture that all the original believers not only kept the 7th day Sabbath, not Sunday, but they also kept all of Torah including the commanded sacrifices.
I don't disagree with you. Most, but certainly not all, of the disiples had pass. John lived until the second century. Yes, we are pretty sure that none of the 12 actually wrote the Didache, but nonetheless it is a gathering of their teachings, just as the gospels were a gathering of Yeshua's.
 
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Open Heart

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"In Rev. 1:10, the apostle John, used kyriake hemera ("I was in the Spirit on the L-rd's Day") in a way apparently familiar to his readers. Observers of first-day worship hold that this means he was worshiping on Sunday, resurrection day. Seventh-day Sabbatarians hold that since Jesus said he was "L-rd of the Sabbath" (Matt 12:8) and that Isaiah (58:13-14) called the Sabbath the "L-rd's Holy Day" then the L-rd's Day is the Seventh-day Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). Both parties accordingly use this verse to lay claim to the name "L-rd's Day" for their day of worship."

Note also that Ignatius was deliberately castigating, vilifying, rejecting and ostracizing the Jewish believers:
"Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace ... If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing Sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny ... how shall we be able to live apart from Him? ... It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity." — Ignatius to the Magnesians 8:1, 9:1-2, 10:3, Lightfoot translation.

So to codify rejection of Judaism as their foundation Gentile believers were strongly urged to reject the practices that had characterized the believing community since Yeshua's resurrection until that time.
I, for one, only give weight to Ignatius in so far as a means to document the beginnings of anti-Semitism and supersessionism in the "Church".

I have all sorts of things I'd eagerly reply, but I'm bound by the SOP not to.

Shalom.
 
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gadar perets

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When I refer to Ignatius, I'm referring to THIS quote:
" no longer observing sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day" which your quotes do nothing to say otherwise.
The word "sabbatize" is used where the English uses "observing sabbaths". I believe that can refer to keeping the Sabbath as the Jews did with all their added burdensome commands attached to it.
 
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Open Heart

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The word "sabbatize" is used where the English uses "observing sabbaths". I believe that can refer to keeping the Sabbath as the Jews did with all their added burdensome commands attached to it.
Are you arguing that "Sabbath" refers to keeping a Pharasaical Shabbat, while "the Lord's Day" refers to a kind of Sabbath lite?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No more than the Sabbath has to do with Saturn, also a pagan God.

MJ's who are part of churches worship on the first day because it is the day Moshiach rose. This is recorded in the Early Church Fathers.

Yes we keep Sunday as a day of worship, but is not THE Sabbath day.
 
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gadar perets

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Are you arguing that "Sabbath" refers to keeping a Pharasaical Shabbat, while "the Lord's Day" refers to a kind of Sabbath lite?
I believe he may be referring to keeping a Pharasaical Sabbath as opposed to keeping it according to the Lord's life, not the "Lord's Day" which is not in the text.
 
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Henaynei

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I don't disagree with you. Most, but certainly not all, of the disiples had pass. John lived until the second century. Yes, we are pretty sure that none of the 12 actually wrote the Didache, but nonetheless it is a gathering of their teachings, just as the gospels were a gathering of Yeshua's.
I tend in general to be inclined to consider the veracity of a missive with the author's name and close to the events included... preferring first-hand accounts. This missive has neither and I am therefore inclined to cast a doubtful eye toward it, given the history to which I previously alluded that shows a strong anti-Jewish attitude by the leadership of the Gentile believers and that was so strongly taught to their congregants.
I do not accept that the Didache is an irrefutably accurate "gathering of [the Apostles] teachings."
 
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Henaynei

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So Sunday isn't the Sabbath, it's the Lord's day.
The "L-rd's Day" is Shabbat, aka as Saturday in this day, previously known as the 7th day in Judaism and Yeshua's time. (the root of the Hebrew Shabbat comes from the Hebrew for 7)
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The "L-rd's Day" is Shabbat, aka as Saturday in this day, previously known as the 7th day in Judaism and Yeshua's time.

No it is the day the Lord rose from the dead and has been viewed as such by Christians for 2000 years.
 
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Henaynei

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No it is the day the Lord rose from the dead and has been viewed as such by Christians for 2000 years.
I firmly don't agree. :) and there is no evidence IN SCRIPTURE to support that interpretation.
And I acknowledge that of that I will not convince you. Shalom
 
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gadar perets

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No it is the day the Lord rose from the dead and has been viewed as such by Christians for 2000 years.
The only reason Yeshua rose from the dead on a Sunday that year is because that is the day Israel did the wave sheaf offering (omer offering - firstfruits of the barley harvest) of Leviticus 23:10-11. If Christians wanted to honor his resurrection, then they should do it on wave sheaf day every year, not on every Sunday every week. They chose Sunday so as not to appear Jewish so they would avoid the persecution the Jews were subjected to.

Seriously. If you were born on Monday, May 1, 2017, would you celebrate your birthday on every Monday of every week? Yeshua was "born again" on a Sunday, in the month Abib, on the day they offered the wave sheaf. Therefore, celebrate his new birth (resurrection) on wave sheaf day in the month of Abib every year.
 
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Rachel Rachel

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Except you have a couple of things wrong.

Sun-day has nothing to do with the Sabbath. It is the day of the sun (pagan god).

And Sunday is the first day of the week, not the seventh.
I'm glad you posted this... I thought I was cracking up.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Yeshua said He was Lord of the Sabbath.. so that makes the Sabbath, the Lord's Day.
It doesn't necessarily follow that since Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath that we should equivocate the Lord's day with the Sabbath. It was on Sunday that Christ rose and we already see an apostolic practice of gathering on the first day of the week and collecting money on the first day of the week in the New Testament. I take that along with the practice of the Church which followed the Apostles (who were not Messianic since Messianics did not exist until the 20th century) to be good reason to view the Lord's day as Sunday, the primary Christian day of worship. Note that I am not saying Sunday is the Sabbath day, it is something different.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The only reason Yeshua rose from the dead on a Sunday that year is because that is the day Israel did the wave sheaf offering (omer offering - firstfruits of the barley harvest) of Leviticus 23:10-11. If Christians wanted to honor his resurrection, then they should do it on wave sheaf day every year, not on every Sunday every week. They chose Sunday so as not to appear Jewish so they would avoid the persecution the Jews were subjected to.

Seriously. If you were born on Monday, May 1, 2017, would you celebrate your birthday on every Monday of every week? Yeshua was "born again" on a Sunday, in the month Abib, on the day they offered the wave sheaf. Therefore, celebrate his new birth (resurrection) on wave sheaf day in the month of Abib every year.

This seems like an arbitrary standard to hold Christians up to. Though at least you recognise Christ rose on the Sunday.
 
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