Always a scriptural problem to wonder about....

klutedavid

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One thing that I noticed is that when I read scripture, I never end up at peace about anything because there's always something somewhere that conflicts with something else. I'll stop short of saying that scripture contradicts itself, but sometimes it seems that way. It explains why there are so many arguments on this site. Without getting too specific with chapters and verses, I'll try to keep it simple.

We're told that all who call on the name of Jesus will be saved. We're told that Jesus died and was raised so that all who believes in Him will have everlasting life. But in other places, we're told that we have to have a "relationship" with Him, or we won't be saved (Depart from Me, I never knew you). Also, I get the impression that we're saved by following Jesus's commandments (Why do you call me Lord, but don't do what I tell you?) and (John 14:21--"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."). And then there are warnings against falling away (He who endures to the end will be saved).

So let me ask this: What happens if a person prays that God forgives him of his sin by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and to make him a new person that God wants him to be and then reads the bible, tries sharing his faith and doing what he believes God wants him to do--and then years later is a little disenchanted because he starts hearing different interpretations of what is in scripture and starts wondering if he was going about it all wrong? What if there was even one certain sin that he just couldn't stop doing; some secret sin that may or may not be his doom? Is he still saved from his sin, having been covered by Jesus, or does having a sin in his life mean that he hasn't actually had faith in Christ, but has actually fallen away?

I don't mean to ramble. I wanted to keep this simple, but it quickly gets complicated. I guess the bottom line of my question is: What does a person have to do to become saved, remain saved, and not fall away? Is a sin a sign of having fallen away, or is it just a sign that our old nature still exists and that we aren't perfect and that's why we need Jesus? Or is it a sign that we haven't actually repented, which is a requirement for being saved?
Hello Aldebaran.

Your saved because you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the first and the fundamental doctrine of the New Testament.

After believing in Jesus Christ, you then live your life according to what you believe. Which is only logical of course, if you believe then you will follow.

Anyone that believes in Jesus Christ will be saved, anyone that calls on His name will be saved.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day.

If someone says that believe in Jesus but does not endeavor to follow Jesus, then they never really believed. The more you believe in Jesus, the easier the Christian life becomes. The true Christian Gospel is extremely simple.
 
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dzheremi

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I'm dismayed by how little traditional theology is being expressed in this thread on the Traditional Theology forum.

Anyway, the early Christian writer Tertullian (d. 220) provides us with the answer to this question. I think it is one that will probably surprise a lot of people writing in this thread.

"Our appeal, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible, or uncertain, or not certain enough. But even if a discussion from the Scriptures should not turn out in such a way as to place both sides on a par, (yet) the natural order of things would require that this point should be first proposed, which is now the only one which we must discuss: “With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong. From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule, by which men become Christians?” For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions." (source)

As shocking as it sounds a certain type of modern Christian, the traditional answer is not to argue from scripture to begin with, because as you can see from the above this issue of competing interpretations is one that has been with the Church since the very earliest days (after all, what was Christ our Lord doing but correcting the erroneous interpretations of those around Him of various aspects of the law rooted in Jewish scriptures when He spoke in the manner "You have heard it said..., but I say unto you..."?). The key is to find with whom the very faith of the scriptures belongs. The proper understanding of the scriptures is with those who have preserved the original/traditional faith taught to them by the apostles, not the ones who can argue most convincingly from scripture (if that were the case, then presumably we'd all be with that group, whichever that is). The Bible does not come first, in a temporal sense. The faith was and is first. When St. Mark the Evangelist came to Egypt, it was not with a Bible in hand, but with his direct experience of the risen Lord, our God Jesus Christ. Same too when St. Peter and St. Paul went to Antioch, St. Thomas to India, St. Jude to Armenia, etc.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Christ returned His disciples to the old paths, to TORAH as once delivered by YHWH.
His disciples did that also, as trained by Him.
The erroneous interpretations before Christ and after Christ were the various and wrong interpretations, the same kind of think before Christ as after Christ.

Today, the same truth and freedom is unchanged from what Christ taught the disciples. Various interpretations that are contrary to Scripture cause confusion.
 
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Not that it completely answers the question, but I like 2 Timothy 2:11 on this matter:
"This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless [or unfaithful], He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."
I look at it this way: "1) all who except Christ's atonement (death) for them, will receive eternal life with Him; 2) but additionally those who go the next step and really follow the call and walk in endurance, this group will additionally not just live, but also 'reign' with him; 3) however, those who turn back through formal rejection, denial of Christ as Savior (e.g., under fear of death), this person will forfeit their salvation, Christ will deny them and not welcome them into eternal life; 4) but lastly, though not the goal, but take some comfort, if a believer walks faithlessly, and/or unfaithfully, sinfully, thank God for our merciful Savior as He still remains faithful to us regardless of our crappy performance or tendency toward sinfulness, His Spirit is in us, therefore, He cannot deny Himself."
That's my 'amplified' interpretation that I think at least touches on your question. One thing I would add is that sinful, faithless Christianity is highly risky to salvation in that it may weaken a person to a place of easier denial.

Thank you for that intepretation of that verse! I never saw it that way until you pointed it out. It seems to indicate different levels of existence in Heaven, which is something I've heard about before but wasn't too sure of.
 
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Aldebaran

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Hello Aldebaran.

Your saved because you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the first and the fundamental doctrine of the New Testament.

After believing in Jesus Christ, you then live your life according to what you believe. Which is only logical of course, if you believe then you will follow.

Anyone that believes in Jesus Christ will be saved, anyone that calls on His name will be saved.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day.

If someone says that believe in Jesus but does not endeavor to follow Jesus, then they never really believed. The more you believe in Jesus, the easier the Christian life becomes. The true Christian Gospel is extremely simple.

The verse you quoted is one of many that actually make me wonder. There are 2 things there that are qualifiers. First, it's IF you hold fast the word, and UNLESS you believed in vain. If a person thinks he's a believer but fails all the time in following Christ, then it seems to become questionable whether or not the person is holding fast the word, and indeed may have believed in vain.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And, don't forget also, even demons believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - they saw it happen.
And they are not saved because of that.
Same with people who saw it, as well as people who believe it happened,
that is great reason to trust God, to turn to Him to be saved, but that believing itself guarantees nothing except great / worse/ punishment or judgment if they don't obey God then, because they 'knew', maybe even were always learning, but never came to experiential knowledge of the truth/ life in Jesus.

edit: yes - as you posted: "if they believe in vain" qualifier... yes.
 
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klutedavid

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The verse you quoted is one of many that actually make me wonder. There are 2 things there that are qualifiers. First, it's IF you hold fast the word, and UNLESS you believed in vain. If a person thinks he's a believer but fails all the time in following Christ, then it seems to become questionable whether or not the person is holding fast the word, and indeed may have believed in vain.
Hello Aldebaran.

Do you agree that believing in the death and resurrection of Christ is of first importance?
 
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klutedavid

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And, don't forget also, even demons believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - they saw it happen.[/Quote]
Hello Jeff.

Where in the scripture does it say that the demons believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
And they are not saved because of that.
Salvation was not offered to demons.
Same with people who saw it, as well as people who believe it happened,
that is great reason to trust God, to turn to Him to be saved, but that believing itself guarantees nothing except great / worse/ punishment or judgment if they don't obey God then, because they 'knew', maybe even were always learning, but never came to experiential knowledge of the truth/ life in Jesus.
The act of believing in Jesus precipitates the reception of the Holy Spirit. This is way before a person can produce any fruit or walk a path of obedience. The act of believing in Jesus Christ is the primary doctrine of Christianity, 1 Corinthians 15.
 
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I'm dismayed by how little traditional theology is being expressed in this thread on the Traditional Theology forum.

Anyway, the early Christian writer Tertullian (d. 220) provides us with the answer to this question. I think it is one that will probably surprise a lot of people writing in this thread.

"Our appeal, therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible, or uncertain, or not certain enough. But even if a discussion from the Scriptures should not turn out in such a way as to place both sides on a par, (yet) the natural order of things would require that this point should be first proposed, which is now the only one which we must discuss: “With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong. From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule, by which men become Christians?” For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions." (source)

As shocking as it sounds a certain type of modern Christian, the traditional answer is not to argue from scripture to begin with, because as you can see from the above this issue of competing interpretations is one that has been with the Church since the very earliest days (after all, what was Christ our Lord doing but correcting the erroneous interpretations of those around Him of various aspects of the law rooted in Jewish scriptures when He spoke in the manner "You have heard it said..., but I say unto you..."?). The key is to find with whom the very faith of the scriptures belongs. The proper understanding of the scriptures is with those who have preserved the original/traditional faith taught to them by the apostles, not the ones who can argue most convincingly from scripture (if that were the case, then presumably we'd all be with that group, whichever that is). The Bible does not come first, in a temporal sense. The faith was and is first. When St. Mark the Evangelist came to Egypt, it was not with a Bible in hand, but with his direct experience of the risen Lord, our God Jesus Christ. Same too when St. Peter and St. Paul went to Antioch, St. Thomas to India, St. Jude to Armenia, etc.

He that has an ear, let him hear ....

I try to be careful with Turtullian of course, but this is wisdom.
 
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hedrick

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When you find that Scripture seems to give many answers, there are several possibilities to think about:

1) Many you’re asking the wrong question. Not that our questions aren’t interesting and maybe important, but they may not be the ones that the Biblical authors were trying to answer.

2) Maybe there’s no step by step, defined, answer possible. Try thinking about why Jesus taught with stories. Perhaps direct answers weren’t possible, because he was trying to help people sense a new way of life, not a new theology.

3) Maybe the NT authors disagreed.

Salvation is a classic example of this. You’d think Jesus would give a checklist of things we have to do to be saved. Actually he sort of does, though there are dangers to taking this one answer without the rest of his teaching. Someone asks him point blank what we have to do, and he says “keep the commandments.”

* It’s not clear to me that Jesus thought his mission was to make it possible for people to be saved. He thought it was to establish the Kingdom of God. That’s not quite the same thing, though they’re clearly related, and he did talk about personal salvation.

* Jesus and Paul both seem to have seen faithfulness as a single thing. I’m convinced that the Protestant opposition of faith and works is a misinterpretation of Paul. He was certainly opposed to his opponents’ requirement of “works of the Law,” and the Reformers were probably right to see analogies between that and the 16th Cent situation. But both Jesus and Paul thought that following Jesus was a single thing, involving both faith and how we live.

* While you can find a couple of passages that might imply the contrary, Jesus’ overall message was not that there was this secret set of requirement that you have to guess right to avoid hell. He tells several parables involving judgement, but the people there aren’t people who guessed wrong on whether the early Church baptized infants, or who chose Lutheran rather than Reformed theology. The guys that were judged were people who showed no sign of obedience to God at all, and in many cases seemed to be specifically opposed to his rule. Remember, even offering a cup of water to someone brings its reward. And Jesus’ yoke is light.
 
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Hello Aldebaran.

Do you agree that believing in the death and resurrection of Christ is of first importance?

Yes, I do. The problem comes when other verses say things like, "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2). Verses like this seem to say that a person may have believed, but maybe they didn't quite believe 100%, or maybe they repented, but there was just that 1 sin they just couldn't quite overcome, or they eventually started reading literature that questions many parts of the bible so that they begin to wonder if it's really real. At these points, couldn't verses that indicate that we must endure to the end, or that we must surrender ourselves completely to Christ, or repent of ALL sin, be disqualifiers?
 
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Yes, I do. The problem comes when other verses say things like, "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2). Verses like this seem to say that a person may have believed, but maybe they didn't quite believe 100%, or maybe they repented, but there was just that 1 sin they just couldn't quite overcome, or they eventually started reading literature that questions many parts of the bible so that they begin to wonder if it's really real. At these points, couldn't verses that indicate that we must endure to the end, or that we must surrender ourselves completely to Christ, or repent of ALL sin, be disqualifiers?
Context.

What is the Gospel Paul is talking about?

1 Corinthians 15

15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, [e]and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified [f]against God that He raised [g]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.







THAT is the Gospel Paul talks about. Christ died for our sins, was buried, raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and appeared to men. There is a Resurrection of the dead to come. Christ was raised, we will one day be raised, we do not utterly perish when we die.

If you deny those things, your faith is vain. It's not the minute details, whether you get every single jot and tittle right with zero error, never encounter a single moment of doubt, eradicate every tiny sin from your life. We do have to consider all of Scripture, and understand it all in context. Yes, God expects us to repent of sins, seek forgiveness, follow Christ's commandments. But we don't "purchase" our salvation in this way.

Actually, such questions as yours have my compassion. I guess I can understand how a line here, a verse there, like statistics, can be cobbled together to make the Scriptures seem to say almost anything. If that is your only source of understanding, and hearing a thousand different opinions, it's enough to confuse anyone, and this is the most important thing to most of us, that one thing we most desire NOT to be confused by. And it would take years to sufficiently sift through early Church writings on our own (as well as needing to read Greek for many of them).
 
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hedrick

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Verses like this seem to say that a person may have believed, but maybe they didn't quite believe 100%, or maybe they repented, but there was just that 1 sin they just couldn't quite overcome, or they eventually started reading literature that questions many parts of the bible so that they begin to wonder if it's really real.
I think you're overinterpreting this. In context, the Gospel that Paul says matters is Christ's death and resurrection. The OP seemed to be concerned that we had to get right theologies about which there are lots of views in the Christian community, and so we can never be sure we've done what we need. But surely Jesus' death and resurrection are core for all of us.

At one point Paul says that if Christ wasn't raised, nothing else matters. 1 Cor 15:2 can be read as saying the same thing. "You are being saved through it if you hold on to the message I preached to you, unless somehow you believed it for nothing." He goes on to speak of the resurrection, not to give some specific that we have to do or we're lost. So I'm inclined to say "unless somehow you believed it for nothing" means "unless it's not true that Christ rose." In the following verses the only error he seems to be opposed to is people who say there's no resurrection. But the people 15:2 is addressed to can't be those people, since he says they believe.

There's some discussion about what "in vain" means in this context. It takes on several meanings in the NT. TDNT says "The basic meaning is “at random,” “with no plan or goal,” “for no objective reason.”" That would support my contention that he's saying "if there's no basis for your faith in Christ's resurrection." There's no sign in the context that he's saying we have to have some very specific flavor of faith in Christ's resurrection.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Alderbaran.

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I do. The problem comes when other verses say things like, "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:2). Verses like this seem to say that a person may have believed, but maybe they didn't quite believe 100%, or maybe they repented, but there was just that 1 sin they just couldn't quite overcome, or they eventually started reading literature that questions many parts of the bible so that they begin to wonder if it's really real. At these points, couldn't verses that indicate that we must endure to the end, or that we must surrender ourselves completely to Christ, or repent of ALL sin, be disqualifiers?
Somehow you managed to scramble what Paul said. Paul is establishing the primary foundation of what it is that we believe, which is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15
...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you.

You are saved if you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that is what Paul is preaching.

If you believe that you must be sin free, in perfect holiness every day, also perfect in love and faith. Then you may misunderstand why God had to sacrifice His own life for yours.

Concerning the scripture and whether everything written therein is authentic? You only need the Gospel (1 Corinthians 15), one Gospel account of Jesus, and one of Paul's other letters to be genuine. You then have more than enough scripture to ensure your salvation.

Once again, you must establish the primary doctrine of the Christian faith first (1 Corinthians 15). Once you have the foundation of Christianity in place, nothing will be able to move you from that security in Christ.
 
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Aldebaran

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Context.

What is the Gospel Paul is talking about?

1 Corinthians 15

15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, [e]and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified [f]against God that He raised [g]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.







THAT is the Gospel Paul talks about. Christ died for our sins, was buried, raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and appeared to men. There is a Resurrection of the dead to come. Christ was raised, we will one day be raised, we do not utterly perish when we die.

If you deny those things, your faith is vain. It's not the minute details, whether you get every single jot and tittle right with zero error, never encounter a single moment of doubt, eradicate every tiny sin from your life. We do have to consider all of Scripture, and understand it all in context. Yes, God expects us to repent of sins, seek forgiveness, follow Christ's commandments. But we don't "purchase" our salvation in this way.

Actually, such questions as yours have my compassion. I guess I can understand how a line here, a verse there, like statistics, can be cobbled together to make the Scriptures seem to say almost anything. If that is your only source of understanding, and hearing a thousand different opinions, it's enough to confuse anyone, and this is the most important thing to most of us, that one thing we most desire NOT to be confused by. And it would take years to sufficiently sift through early Church writings on our own (as well as needing to read Greek for many of them).

Thank you for pointing out the context in which the statement was made. Sometimes when I read entire passages like that, it's hard to follow the line of thought Paul has unless it is pointed out by someone like you who understands what is being said as a whole.
 
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Thank you for pointing out the context in which the statement was made. Sometimes when I read entire passages like that, it's hard to follow the line of thought Paul has unless it is pointed out by someone like you who understands what is being said as a whole.
Fortunately that was an easy one with the answer right there. Paul has a way of arguing from various principles that aren't always so clear - it's easy to become confused reading him. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but it is very helpful to have a good foundation of - everything, really, lol - so that you can more easily recognize when your own logic is leading you astray.

I forget where, but I believe it might have been Peter who commented about Paul's writings being difficult, and that some people were trying to logically discern things from them on their own, and damaging their faith in the process.

Since you asked in Traditional Theology, I will say that is one of the great benefits of the Church - much was written very early on by the Apostles' own disciples, and their disciples, that more clearly explains everything the Apostles were teaching and show how it fit together.

God be with you!
 
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We can never be perfect in this life (although some will argue that but I have never met one person without sin). Jesus enables us, by the Holy Spirit, to WANT and even TRY not to sin, to want to obey Him in everything. I repent every day, because whether I am aware of the sin or not, I sin every day. If we could be perfect and sinless of our own merit, there would have been no need for Jesus to have done what He did, the Law of Moses would have been enough.
The Christian life is one of a continually repentant spirit. The believer in the Lord Jesus is truly justified by faith.
I don't believe in a pietistic beating up of people, however, if they happen to be struggling with cutting down on cigarettes, for example.
 
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