Original Sin?

~Anastasia~ said:

This is one reason Orthodox do not believe in the idea of original sin (original guilt), which is a more recent and western concept.

Babies are born like all human beings, mortal, under the curse of death which affects all the natural world, and is the result of Adam's sin. Adam turned from God, cut himself off from the Source of Life itself (God) and as a natural consequence, dies a physical death. Because man is in a sense the priest over the creation, it's crowning creature, responsible for stewardship over creation and meant to rule over it, the entrance of death through man's sin fell to all creation.

But babies aren't born guilty of Adam's sin. No guilt falls on them until they choose to sin. Sparrows don't die because they are guilty, neither do fish or trees or grass.

Christ not only provides for redemption from personal sins we are guilty of, but also provides for man to be reconciled to God and - just as man led all of creation into the curse of death through his sin, also is part of the eventual restoration of all things to be one day rescued from death because of the priesthood of believers who are reconciled to God and part of the eventual overcoming of death made possible by the defeat of death by Jesus Christ having died (being God) and rising again to life.

I hope that makes sense. But physical death is not the consequence of our personal sins, but the result of Adam's sin, since all die. We have no guilt until we commit our own sin. This is why babies can die, yet are innocent of personal sin.

We trust in God's mercy for their salvation, which is still needed, as we all need Christ.

But this is why we never developed a theology of original sin as often understood today in the west, nor was it the belief of the Apostles or the early Church.

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~Anastasia~ said:

This is one reason Orthodox do not believe in the idea of original sin (original guilt), which is a more recent and western concept.

Babies are born like all human beings, mortal, under the curse of death which affects all the natural world, and is the result of Adam's sin. Adam turned from God, cut himself off from the Source of Life itself (God) and as a natural consequence, dies a physical death. Because man is in a sense the priest over the creation, it's crowning creature, responsible for stewardship over creation and meant to rule over it, the entrance of death through man's sin fell to all creation.

But babies aren't born guilty of Adam's sin. No guilt falls on them until they choose to sin. Sparrows don't die because they are guilty, neither do fish or trees or grass.

Christ not only provides for redemption from personal sins we are guilty of, but also provides for man to be reconciled to God and - just as man led all of creation into the curse of death through his sin, also is part of the eventual restoration of all things to be one day rescued from death because of the priesthood of believers who are reconciled to God and part of the eventual overcoming of death made possible by the defeat of death by Jesus Christ having died (being God) and rising again to life.

I hope that makes sense. But physical death is not the consequence of our personal sins, but the result of Adam's sin, since all die. We have no guilt until we commit our own sin. This is why babies can die, yet are innocent of personal sin.

We trust in God's mercy for their salvation, which is still needed, as we all need Christ.

But this is why we never developed a theology of original sin as often understood today in the west, nor was it the belief of the Apostles or the early Church.

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Very good! And neither do the Jews believe man is born innately sinful.

Buggins said:

"Men have the free will to make choices, but these choices are made within the confines of their nature and the story that was written for them. Every choice that you have made in your lifetime has brought you to this point, and it is exactly where you're supposed to be."

So you haven't actually got freedom, have you? You've got something that sounds like freedom, but.... it isn't. And every decision you have made, every sin you have committed, every wrong turn was all so that you could be exactly where you are now??
What a load of baloney.

"This also includes the salvation of men. If you believe that the death of Christ has the power to save all people, and then say that a man can choose not to be saved, then you have given power to the man and declared the death of Christ powerless."

What?
Jesus said in regards to His return,
Luke 18>
6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

and Luke 13>
34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"

And Matthew 721 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

Of course men can resist the offer of salvation because they have free will and their deeds are evil. That in no way lessens the death and resurrection of our Lord in terms of salvation.

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If God is not Sovereign, then we live in a chaotic world where God can only hope that the decisions of men bring about what He has determined for mankind.

No one has the power of ultimate self-determination to get themselves to God. (John 6:64-65) Jesus said in order to enter the kingdom of God you must be born again. (John 3:3-7) That is God must begin the work of regeneration, to bring about the desire to live for Him. Faith is, therefore, not the result of human self-determination but of the 'new birth'. Without the gift of God to cause us to repent and believe, none of us would be saved. Saved from what, you say? The sinful nature inherited as a descendant of Adam.

GillDouglas said:

If God is not Sovereign, then we live in a chaotic world where God can only hope that the decisions of men bring about what He has determined for mankind.

No one has the power of ultimate self-determination to get themselves to God. (John 6:64-65) Jesus said in order to enter the kingdom of God you must be born again. (John 3:3-7) That is God must begin the work of regeneration, to bring about the desire to live for Him. Faith is, therefore, not the result of human self-determination but of the 'new birth'. Without the gift of God to cause us to repent and believe, none of us would be saved. Saved from what, you say? The sinful nature inherited as a descendant of Adam.

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"If God is not Sovereign, then we live in a chaotic world where God can only hope that the decisions of men bring about what He has determined for mankind."
But God IS sovereign! That He gave His creation man free will does not take away from His sovereignty, because God can 'compute' what we might do with that freedom, and is able to plan how He can overcome it and use it in achieving His ultimate purposes.
Hebrews 1> "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

So we know that God has a plan because He has told us. He says that one day He will wrap up the whole show and create a new heaven and a new earth.
The freedom we have as individuals is to repent and receive salvation and work with Him or not repent and keep working against Him; but whatever our choice God WILL achieve His desired purposes.
It seems to me that God allows man to do his own thing and bearing in mind that man knows the difference between good and evil, most men seek the good, even if that good is done from a rebellious humanistic motive, not a Godly one.
That's why we have people who give us all kinds of health care, who protect us, defend us, who come up with all sorts of laws and initiatives to make society better. If men were as evil as some Christians seem to believe they are, we wouldn't be able to trust anyone.


Man's main sin is rebellion against God and determining to go his own way and rule his own kingdom without God.

God through the Holy Spirit energising the Body of Christ bears witness to the Light, to the Gospel of Salvation. The Holy Spirit works on the hearts and conscience of those who have in some way heard the Word of God, and tries to lead them to repentance.
That's why the parable says in Luke 14>
" But he said to him, “A man once gave a great banquet, and invited many; 17 and at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, ‘Come; for all is now ready.’ 18 But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it; I pray you, have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them; I pray you, have me excused.’ 20 And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21 So the servant came and reported this to his master. Then the householder in anger said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in the poor and maimed and blind and lame.’ 22 And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ 23 And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges, and compel people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’”
God WANTS all men to be saved, but not all will be. We as the Church can work with God in proclaiming the Kingdom of God until God as Sovereign calls "Time."
Then His end time plan comes into effect and the judgement of the world begins..

Buggins said:

If you were born condemned and headed for Hell what's the point of it all? You might say that God would be justified in wiping us all out, and save a whole lot of sin, suffering and misery.
Even saying that God chooses some to save 'out of His mercy' is hardly comforting. It makes our God no different to Allah who does what he wants without reference to justice or righteousness. No, John 3: 14-16 makes it absolutely clear, and is line with all the other passages of Scripture where God offers forgiveness when men repent..
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."
Those verses spoken by our Lord Himself fit in with the nature of God as revealed through Scripture. Yes salvation comes from a loving and holy God, and yes, the Holy Spirit works on the conscience of a man or woman, but the Lord would not have told His disciples to go out with the good news if men were unable to respond. There's a great dvd doing the rounds at the moment entitled "The Atheist Delusion". Well worth watching if only to see how the Christian shows how the real reason for being an atheist is to avoid bowing the knee to God. That's the power of evangelism, when godly men and women preach the Gospel and men and women come under the conviction of sin.
Think Billy Graham..

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In a sense we're already in hell, or halfway between heaven and hell, where both good and evil are experienced, or literally known. Here we're given the opportunity to choose between the two, to come to learn the reason why Adam was wrong in not heeding God's voice-and to reverse his choice within ourselves, so to speak. Because Original Sin could be described as a state of injustice that consists of an unnatural spiritual separation of man from God, a dangerous separation, where man is no longer subjugated to God and the result is disharmony and chaos in our moral world; sin abounds here. A name given to this separation is "the death of the soul", and it constitutes the very reason why man must be "born again" or "born from above". God's purpose is to patiently draw us into willing the right thing-the good-and the first step in this is faith, where we first of all acknowledge God's existence, and then begin to trust and love Him. IOW, there's a reason and purpose for man's exile here from Eden, an educative one.

Before the Fall: "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." (Genesis 2:25)

After the Fall: "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." (Genesis 3:7)

Why is it that we are the only beings in existence that wear clothes? Because we are ashamed of our nakedness!

GillDouglas said:

Before the Fall: "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." (Genesis 2:25)

After the Fall: "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." (Genesis 3:7)

Why is it that we are the only beings in existence that wear clothes? Because we are ashamed of our nakedness!

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Yes, that's a very odd truth about humans. Shame entered our world with the OS, and it reflects a deeper shame regarding who we are-our very worth. And we don't even question it; we take it for granted now that wearing clothes is the only "right" thing to do for civilized and rational and moral people. We have laws against obscenity in fact. It's very strange-and yet, in man's fallen condition, we can never expect the original innocence of Adam Eve to be restored in this present world.

fhansen said:

Yes, that's a very odd truth about humans. Shame entered our world with the OS, and it reflects a deeper shame regarding who we are-our very worth. And we don't even question it; we take it for granted now that wearing clothes is the only "right" thing to do for civilized and rational and moral people. We have laws against obscenity in fact. It's very strange-and yet, in man's fallen condition, we can never expect the original innocence of Adam Eve to be restored in this present world.

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And how does this relate to newborns? I've never seen one who was ashamed of his/her nakedness. Do you think innocence has something to do with it?

EmSw said:

And how does this relate to newborns? I've never seen one who was ashamed of his/her nakedness. Do you think innocence has something to do with it?

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Sure, but the oddity is that the innocence is virtually programmed or in any case guaranteed to fade now, once a certain, very young, age is reached. That shame is a part of fallen man.

Buggins said:

"Men have the free will to make choices, but these choices are made within the confines of their nature and the story that was written for them. Every choice that you have made in your lifetime has brought you to this point, and it is exactly where you're supposed to be."

So you haven't actually got freedom, have you? You've got something that sounds like freedom, but.... it isn't. And every decision you have made, every sin you have committed, every wrong turn was all so that you could be exactly where you are now??
What a load of baloney.

"This also includes the salvation of men. If you believe that the death of Christ has the power to save all people, and then say that a man can choose not to be saved, then you have given power to the man and declared the death of Christ powerless."

What?
Jesus said in regards to His return,
Luke 18>
6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

and Luke 13>
34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!"

And Matthew 721 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

Of course men can resist the offer of salvation because they have free will and their deeds are evil. That in no way lessens the death and resurrection of our Lord in terms of salvation.

Click to expand...

You said, So you haven't actually got freedom, have you?
Well isn't that what scripture says? Either your a slave of sin or a slave of God.
Either way you are not your own, if a believer then your bought with a price and belong to Christ, and if you don't believe in Christ a slave of sin and satan is your destiny. Your will to do is as your father does. For Christians God is conforming them to the image of Christ. This is not without some pain.
People may think they make their own free will choices, but every choice you make is influenced by the circumstances you find yourself experiencing. Thankfully for those God has called to be of the saved, all of those circumstances God works for the good in your life as is taught in Romans 8.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:15
[ From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God ] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves ofsin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slavesof righteousness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

sdowney717 said:

You said, So you haven't actually got freedom, have you?
Well isn't that what scripture says? Either your a slave of sin or a slave of God.
Either way you are not your own, if a believer then your bought with a price and belong to Christ, and if you don't believe in Christ a slave of sin and satan is your destiny. Your will to do is as your father does. For Christians God is conforming them to the image of Christ. This is not without some pain.

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sdowney, these are the outcomes of our freedom. You become a slave to the one you freely present yourself and choose to obey.

sdowney717 said:

You said, So you haven't actually got freedom, have you?
Well isn't that what scripture says? Either your a slave of sin or a slave of God.
Either way you are not your own, if a believer then your bought with a price and belong to Christ, and if you don't believe in Christ a slave of sin and satan is your destiny. Your will to do is as your father does. For Christians God is conforming them to the image of Christ. This is not without some pain.
People may think they make their own free will choices, but every choice you make is influenced by the circumstances you find yourself experiencing. Thankfully for those God has called to be of the saved, all of those circumstances God works for the good in your life as is taught in Romans 8.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:15
[ From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God ] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
"
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves ofsin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slavesof righteousness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Click to expand...

"Well isn't that what scripture says? Either your a slave of sin or a slave of God.
Either way you are not your own, if a believer then your bought with a price and belong to Christ, and if you don't believe in Christ a slave of sin and satan is your destiny."
I understand what you're saying, but knowing God and living in harmony and obedience with Him is not slavery. It may feel like it in the early days, but as we grow to know and worship Him we begin to understand how 'bent' and rebellious we were before salvation.