Christ is the end of the law

W2L · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
There is no difference.

In my opinion there is. NT Torah is about seeking the kingdom, walking in the spirit, walking by faith not sight. Its about works of flesh verses works of the spirit. It is about having liberty from the old law and walking in a new law, the law of the spirit.

Soyeong · Apr 27, 2017

W2L said:
In my opinion there is. NT Torah is about seeking the kingdom, walking in the spirit, walking by faith not sight. Its about works of flesh verses works of the spirit. It is about having liberty from the old law and walking in a new law, the law of the spirit.

Why would you want liberty from a Law that is holy, righteous, and good? In Deuteronomy 6:24, God said that what He commanded was for His people's own good and to prosper them, so those who believed what God said demonstrating their faith in God to guide them in how they should live by living in obedience to His commands. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so faith has always been key in both the OT and the NT, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). So do you have faith in God that the Mosaic Law is for your own good?

In Galatians 5:16-23, all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with that it teaches, which should make sense because the Mosaic Law was given by God, the Spirit is God, the Law teaches us how to live according to God's character, and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). It's not about having liberty from a Law that instructs how to act according to God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, but about having liberty from sin, which is the transgression of that Law. You make it sound like God was acting against His Spirit when He gave the Mosaic Law.

Shimshon · Apr 27, 2017

bloodygrace said:
God's old and temporary law is written on stone and increases sin. The harder you keep the Torah the more of a sinner you become. It's a booby trap!

So you think our Father would give us instructions, call them holy, state that it is the purpose of our life to follow them, all the while knowing that we couldn't. So setting us up for failure only to present all our blessings to those who were never promised them, and blew up all that existed of Israel beforehand? Our Father in heaven promised to forever be ours and to redeem us even after we fall, and to restore us as in days of old.

So tell me, if God chose you who were never chosen by him in the past. Told you that you would be forgiven all your iniquities and promised to have an eternal relationship with him. He made the way for you a sinner and one who was never given the oracles nor promises as Israel was to be found righteous in his sight. BUT he is not going to do the same for his anointed, his chosen, his beloved....Israel? Israel was given a booby trap but you were given all the promises that Israel lost? And Israel is forever lost, temporary as she was? A booby trapped Torah? But YOU who were not given the Torah are given all the blessing of it?

This proves you do not know the true gospel message. Because if God went out of his way to save you he will most assuredly fulfill his promises to the seeds of Abraham. Anyone who denies this denies the Messiah himself. Saying he will save YOU but 'booby trap' Israel due to our Torah. Nonsense! God loves Israel and WILL restore her BEFORE the great and terible day of the Lord. Meaning the Jesus you await for will not come till YOU say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And much to your surprise it will be Israel that is restored and redeemed, as foretold to our fathers through the Prophets, AND the Torah itself. No Israel, no Messiah. No Messiah, No Israel. Simple as that. The problem with what is being taught here is your theology is divorced from Israel. And so I believe those who do this will be divorce from God in the end. Because Scripture is replete with the blessings of and for Israel. We are not 'temporary', or abolished. We will rise again just like Yeshua, because Yeshua represents us, and we He. You can't separate the two without dire consequences.

W2L · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
In Galatians 5:16-23, all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with that it teaches, which should make sense because the Mosaic Law was given by God,

Now you're catching on. If you understand works of flesh and spirit, why do you need the law still? Dont you see? If we are taught all the works of flesh, and of spirit, and we live by that knowledge, what evil can we do?

bloodygrace · Apr 27, 2017

Shimshon said:
So you think our Father would give us instructions, call them holy, state that it is the purpose of our life to follow them, all the while knowing that we couldn't. So setting us up for failure only to present all our blessings to those who were never promised them, and blew up all that existed of Israel beforehand? Our Father in heaven promised to forever be ours and to redeem us even after we fall, and to restore us as in days of old.

So tell me, if God chose you who were never chosen by him in the past. Told you that you would be forgiven all your iniquities and promised to have an eternal relationship with him. He made the way for you a sinner and one who was never given the oracles nor promises as Israel was to be found righteous in his sight. BUT he is not going to do the same for his anointed, his chosen, his beloved....Israel? Israel was given a booby trap but you were given all the promises that Israel lost? And Israel is forever lost, temporary as she was? A booby trapped Torah? But YOU who were not given the Torah are given all the blessing of it?

This proves you do not know the true gospel message. Because if God went out of his way to save you he will most assuredly fulfill his promises to the seeds of Abraham. Anyone who denies this denies the Messiah himself. Saying he will save YOU but 'booby trap' Israel due to our Torah. Nonsense! God loves Israel and WILL restore her BEFORE the great and terible day of the Lord. Meaning the Jesus you await for will not come till YOU say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And much to your surprise it will be Israel that is restored and redeemed, as foretold to our fathers through the Prophets, AND the Torah itself. No Israel, no Messiah. No Messiah, No Israel. Simple as that. The problem with what is being taught here is your theology is divorced from Israel. And so I believe those who do this will be divorce from God in the end. Because Scripture is replete with the blessings of and for Israel. We are not 'temporary', or abolished. We will rise again just like Yeshua, because Yeshua represents us, and we He. You can't separate the two without dire consequences.

There is an election according grace of Jews and Gentiles. Elect Jews embrace Christ and preach the gospel just like the elect Jews of the 1st century did (Peter, Paul, James, John). Paul was not the only one who preached grace.

Soyeong · Apr 27, 2017

W2L said:
Now you're catching on. If you understand works of flesh and spirit, why do you need the law still? Dont you see? If we are taught all the works of flesh, and of spirit, and we live by that knowledge, what evil can we do?

The Law is a guideline for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good in accordance with God's character and for how to avoid doing what is sinful. However, there are more actions that are righteous than the Law prescribes and more actions that are sinful than the Law prohibits, but as Paul said in Romans 7:14, the Law is spiritual, so it has always been meant to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples. If we correctly understand those deeper spiritual principles and we have faith in God to guide us in how we should rightly live, then it will lead us to take actions that are in accordance with those principles. So our lives should rise above what the Law requires, but at minimum should include what the Law requires.

W2L · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
The Law is a guideline for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good in accordance with God's character and for how to avoid doing what is sinful. However, there are more actions that are righteous than the Law prescribes and more actions that are sinful than the Law prohibits, but as Paul said in Romans 7:14, the Law is spiritual, so it has always been meant to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples. If we correctly understand those deeper spiritual principles and we have faith in God to guide us in how we should rightly live, then it will lead us to take actions that are in accordance with those principles. So our lives should rise above what the Law requires, but at minimum should include what the Law requires.

Besides the Sabbath, what law must i follow that isn't taught in the NT?

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

jaybird88 said:
i know He followed the laws of His Father.
Mt 5 19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Did that include the 10 Cs? Was Jesus obligated to them as a Jew?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
The Law is a guideline for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good in accordance with God's character and for how to avoid doing what is sinful. However, there are more actions that are righteous than the Law prescribes and more actions that are sinful than the Law prohibits, but as Paul said in Romans 7:14, the Law is spiritual, so it has always been meant to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples. If we correctly understand those deeper spiritual principles and we have faith in God to guide us in how we should rightly live, then it will lead us to take actions that are in accordance with those principles. So our lives should rise above what the Law requires, but at minimum should include what the Law requires.

Only if you are subjecting yourself to that covenant and not the NC. No one can subject themselves fully to both covenants. They are not compatible.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

W2L said:
Besides the Sabbath, what law must i follow that isn't taught in the NT?

Good question.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
While "Torah" usually refers to the five books of Moses or to the OT, it is correct that "Torah" means "instruction", which can include the NT. However, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, God instructed His people that anyone who leads us away from obeying what God had commanded is a false prophet who is not speaking for God, even if they perform signs and wonders. So if you believe that the Apostles taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, then you are instructed by God to reject them as false prophets. The Jerusalem did not have more authority than God and they had no authority to countermand any of His commands, so they had no authority to tell Gentiles not to obey any of them, and if you think that they had tried to do so, then you should obey God instead. However, the Apostles never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands, but rather they continue to be Torah observant and to teach obedience to God's Law, so there is no need for you to reject them.

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so if you believe that Paul taught against obeying God, then you understand him differently than the people who walked and talked with him. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times in or to show that it supported what they said and that they didn't deviate from it. According to 2 Peter 3:15-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into error of Lawlessness, so this is saying that if you interpret Paul as teaching against obeying God's Law, then you have misunderstood him.

The Mosaic Law is the way (Exodus 18:20, Deuteronomy 5:33, Deuteronomy 8:6, Deuteronomy 26:16-17, Deuteronomy 28:9, Isaiah 2:3, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1, Matthew 3:3, Matthew 22:16), the truth (Psalms 119:142, Psalms 119:151, John 17:17), and the life (Proverbs 13:14, Matthew 19:17, Deuteronomy 30:15-20), Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Mosaic Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh, so trying to separate following one from following the other will leave you with only half the truth.

Then Jeremiah must be a lair right along with Jesus. Jeremiah said the NC would not be like the the covenant issued at Sinai. Jesus said to keep His commandments. Jesus did not say keep His Father's commandments. Jesus issued a new commandment in JN 13:34.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
If you ask me a question and I take the time to reply, I would prefer it if you would interact with what I said, evaluate it to see if it had any merit, tell me what you agree with, tell me what you disagree, and tell me why you disagree with it, but I would appreciate it if you would at least read it. I have studies those chapters, which why I changed my view from one that was likely similar to yours to the one that I currently hold and I just wrote an in-depth response to you about the background of Galatians and Acts 15 and how they should be correctly understood, but you ignored what I wrote and recommended chapters that I just talked about?

If you can't show me where the Law of Moses requires all Gentiles to become circumcised or even where it required Jews to become circumcised for the expressed purpose of becoming saved, then please grant that what was being discussed in Acts 15:1 was not whether Gentiles should be required to obey the Law of Moses.

First you want the issue to be only about circumcision and stop with v 1. The Pharisees also were reqiring the keeping of the law of Moses in v 5. That includes circumcision.

43 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Ex 12

Not even an uncircumcised Jewish male may eat the Passover required of him. An uncircumcised Jewish male lost his God and nation (heritage).

If you believe that Jesus practiced sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, that he practiced what he preached, and preached what he practiced, then you should believe that he taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). So I do not see any reason to think that the Law of Christ is anything other than the Law of Moses as he taught and lived it out. Paul told us to imitate him for he imitated Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), so Paul follow Christ's example of obedience to the Law and if you are a follower of Paul, then you will too. According to Acts 21:24, Paul continued to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law. You have the teachings of God for how to walk in His ways written down and available to you through the Mosaic Law, yet you ignore it.

No sir. Jn 1:17 and 15:10.

The topic of Romans 14 is stated in the first verse, namely it was in regard to how to handle disputes of opinion, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God's commands. So they might dispute whether a certain action counted as idolatry, but they were not disputing whether to obey God's command against idolatry. Paul was not saying that it was ok to commit murder, adultery, theft, or to disobey any of God other commands just so long as you were convinced in your own mind that it was ok, and if he had tried to tell us that are free to disobey God's commands, then we should obey God instead of him because he didn't have more authority than God.

You are right except Paul clearly taught something different about Jewish holy days than the law.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

W2L said:
You didn't mention those scriptures in the post i replied to.

Of course not. He is told to not listen to anyone except his leader.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

bloodygrace said:
God's law is written in the heart for believers and obedience is automatic.

God's old and temporary law is written on stone and increases sin. The harder you keep the Torah the more of a sinner you become. It's a booby trap!

Yeppers. The body does what the mind dwells on. An interesting fact is the word no in its various forms does not register in the mind. Thus the mind read the 10 Cs as thou shalt, not as thou shalt not.

It is interesting that the NC is written in positive language style and the OT is written in a negative language style.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
Yeshua was born under the law, and according to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from what God had commanded, so if you think that Torah of Yeshua is any different than the Torah of Moses, then you should think that he sinned and could not be your Savior. However, Yeshua was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).

Then Jesus sinned when He said - A new commandment...Jn 13:34. The problem you face is believing what we call the NC is really just an amended extension of the covenant issued at Sinai. Jeremiah says cut a new stone in 31:31. In 32 Jeremiah plainly says it will not be like the previous stone (covenant). There is absolutely nothing about moving the covenant issued at Sinai to the heart even in v 33.

Yeshua was not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, but rather he said that he did not come down to do his own will, but the will of the Father (John 6:38), he said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the father (John 7:16), and that whoever does not love him does not keep his words and the word that you hear was not his, but the Father's who sent him, so he taught obedience only to the Mosaic Law by word and by example and did not depart from it.

No. Jesus kept the law in order to become the spotless sacrifice required of the law. Jesus did not bring nor teach the law according to JN 1:17 or His words in 15:10.

According to John 5:39, Yeshua said that Scriptures testify of him, according to John 5:46, Yeshua said that Moses wrote about him, according to Luke 24:27, Yeshua began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them in all of Scripture the things concerning himself, according to Hebrews 10:7, the totality of the scroll is written about Yeshua, and according to Romans 10:4, a relationship with Yeshua is the goal of the Law for righteousness for all who believe. So the Law itself is not the bread of life, but rather it instruct us about the one who is the bread of Life and how to have a relationship with him based on faith and love.

When one reaches their goal they go to the next goal.

Yeshua began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was given to reveal what sin is (Romans 3:20), without it we wouldn't even know what sin is (Roman 7:7), and sin is defined as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so the Mosaic Law is what the people he was speaking to and what we can look up to find out what our sins are that we should be repenting. This means that repentance from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law is an integral part of the Gospel message.

That is not what I JN 3:4 teaches. Your claim is that sin is only and always disobedience to the law. The verse says sin is also disobedience to the law. IOW there is more to sin than violating the law. Your premise can not be true because sin was in the world before the law (Rom 5:13) and sin (transgression) is the reason for the law coming into existence (Gal 3:19).

When you correctly understand what it means to believe in Yeshua, then you will see that it involves obedience to the Mosaic Law. We can't believe that Yeshua is Lord without submitting to him as Lord, and Romans 10:5-10 quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to what it means to submit to him as Lord. We can't believe that Yeshua gave himself to redeem us from all Lawless and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works without repenting from our Lawlessness and turning to obedience to God's Law for how to do good works. We can't believe in Yeshua to guide us in how we should rightly live without following his teachings and his example for how we should do that.

No believing in Yeshua does not involve obedience to the law. Again I cite JN 1:17 and 15:10 as proof.

On a side note you write much better than most of your peers.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
You must have an extremely low opinion of God to think that He gave to law in order to trap His people. God said that His Law was for His people's own good, so I have faith in what He said and live accordingly. It is the law of sin that Paul described as increasing sin in contrast with God's Law. Perhaps you can explain to me someone who practices repentance and obedience to God by faith is guilty of greater transgression of the Law than someone who doesn't even try to obey God or practice repentance? All throughout the Bible God wanted His people to repent and turn back to obedience to him by faith, so it absurd for you to say that God was doing that in order to trap them.

Yeah same goes for Issiah's and Paul's opinion about God. Read Issiah's lament in 63:17 and one of Paul's reasons/purposes of the law in Rom 11:32.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
I have tried to explain that there is no difference, so again please interact with my points.

Yes we know you disagree with Jeremiah.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
So you say, but you have no Scripture to back it up, whereas I do.

You will not accept our Scripture quotes and references.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Shimshon said:
So you think our Father would give us instructions, call them holy, state that it is the purpose of our life to follow them, all the while knowing that we couldn't. So setting us up for failure only to present all our blessings to those who were never promised them, and blew up all that existed of Israel beforehand? Our Father in heaven promised to forever be ours and to redeem us even after we fall, and to restore us as in days of old.

So tell me, if God chose you who were never chosen by him in the past. Told you that you would be forgiven all your iniquities and promised to have an eternal relationship with him. He made the way for you a sinner and one who was never given the oracles nor promises as Israel was to be found righteous in his sight. BUT he is not going to do the same for his anointed, his chosen, his beloved....Israel? Israel was given a booby trap but you were given all the promises that Israel lost? And Israel is forever lost, temporary as she was? A booby trapped Torah? But YOU who were not given the Torah are given all the blessing of it?

This proves you do not know the true gospel message. Because if God went out of his way to save you he will most assuredly fulfill his promises to the seeds of Abraham. Anyone who denies this denies the Messiah himself. Saying he will save YOU but 'booby trap' Israel due to our Torah. Nonsense! God loves Israel and WILL restore her BEFORE the great and terible day of the Lord. Meaning the Jesus you await for will not come till YOU say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. And much to your surprise it will be Israel that is restored and redeemed, as foretold to our fathers through the Prophets, AND the Torah itself. No Israel, no Messiah. No Messiah, No Israel. Simple as that. The problem with what is being taught here is your theology is divorced from Israel. And so I believe those who do this will be divorce from God in the end. Because Scripture is replete with the blessings of and for Israel. We are not 'temporary', or abolished. We will rise again just like Yeshua, because Yeshua represents us, and we He. You can't separate the two without dire consequences.

You are really off base and seem to be bitter. Rom 11:32 flat out says God used Israel. Thank God I am not an Israeli. God extends the same promise to them if and when they accept it, but only then.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Apr 27, 2017

Soyeong said:
The Law is a guideline for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good in accordance with God's character and for how to avoid doing what is sinful. However, there are more actions that are righteous than the Law prescribes and more actions that are sinful than the Law prohibits, but as Paul said in Romans 7:14, the Law is spiritual, so it has always been meant to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples. If we correctly understand those deeper spiritual principles and we have faith in God to guide us in how we should rightly live, then it will lead us to take actions that are in accordance with those principles. So our lives should rise above what the Law requires, but at minimum should include what the Law requires.

Being led by the Holy Spirit is so much easier than being led by (answering to) the law. Do you not hear the law? You can not win with the law. The law will kill you.

bugkiller

Christ is the end of the law

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