Why seek "God"?

Jane_the_Bane

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If I read you correctly, ananda, your understanding of Buddhism is:
"Life as we know it is garbage, so let's get rid of it and exchange it for something better, something permanent."

The way I see things (which might also be a possible reading of Buddhism is):
"Our perception of life is faulty, leading to all kinds of expectations and entanglements that cause suffering, as we either expect impermanent things to remain unchanging, or else find fault with everything for failing to do so."
 
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ananda

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If I read you correctly, ananda, your understanding of Buddhism is:
"Life as we know it is garbage, so let's get rid of it and exchange it for something better, something permanent."

The way I see things (which might also be a possible reading of Buddhism is):
"Our perception of life is faulty, leading to all kinds of expectations and entanglements that cause suffering, as we either expect impermanent things to remain unchanging, or else find fault with everything for failing to do so."
Actually, I agree with you. IMO samsara is ultimately neutral, a training ground, so to speak. I agree that it is our perceptions that color events in samsara. Anicca, therefore dukkha, therefore anatta.
 
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Eyes wide Open

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What "action" are you referring to, then?

Ok let's take the money analogy that you use. You state that that action causes duhhka, but you promote a hypothetical, thus 'show' how that action causes dukkha right? I said prior that I'm not Buddhist so your position on what wider ramifications there are to giving somebody money are irrelevant to me. So my usage of the word semantic are that you see the word action with the weight of a theology/philosophy hanging over you, I don't.

I'll give you a real example that happened to me. I was in a city early morning looking to buy myself a coffee, nothing seemed open. I asked a homeless man if he knew of anywhere that was open. He said that only McDonald's was open (I happen to not buy coffee from there because I don't like it) I said to the guy, "here's the money I would have spent on a coffee". Now I knew nothing about him. We went on to chat briefly, but the point was that he was lit up that I gave him the money I was going to spend on coffee. Now in that moment tell me how that caused dukkha? Now remember I'm not a Buddhist, so no concepts or hypotheticals on any wider ramifications that 'you think' occur, just the interaction on how it played out as I relayed it.
 
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ananda

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... no concepts or hypotheticals on any wider ramifications that 'you think' occur, just the interaction on how it played out as I relayed it.
From a very high level analysis: Your attachment to the man resulted in an action which caused a birth, and birth always results in decay and death, which results in dukkha.
 
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toLiJC

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I cannot speak of this because I have no direct knowledge of this.

You speak of "personalities" as if we have static, unchanging personalities that remain in the next reality.

No, evidence tells me even now that my personality is constantly changing - our lifestream is in an unending state of flux, taking in new ideas from others and the world around us, discarding other ideas and thoughts.

is every scene of a movie/film exactly the same as any other scene?!, but you know that every moment of one movie/film is usually unique, however, this doesn't mean that any movie/film will be different at every (subsequent) viewing, because if for example you have a dvd/bd with a film/movie recorded on it, (maybe you know) once recorded the data cannot be changed and remains the same on the media to the last, so is the eternity, once something is done in the current eternity, the same is exactly what will be done in every next/future eternity at the same time and place it happened in the current eternity - IOW, we humans are the ones that draw our destiny, whatever we do in the current eternity, the same is what will be done in every next/future eternity by the same personalities that we are now, so the eternity is like one movie/film that replays over and over again in the course of the time's infinity, only the "actors" are successively alternated as to the "roles" (one step ahead for every eternity), everyone will successively be in the place and position of any other...

Revelation 21:6 (NASB) "He said to me, It is done(i.e. it turns out to be a real fact and true as well as one and the same, and not for the first time). I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end(i.e. the beginning and the end of the (single/little) eternity).",

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 (NIV) "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago(i.e. in the previous eternities); it was here before our time(i.e. before this eternal cycle). No one remembers the former generations(i.e. none of the creatures can remember/know which/what positions/personalities/fates were the positions/personalities/fates of the souls in the previous eternal cycles), and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them(i.e. and the hitherto occupied positions/personalities/fates of the souls will not be remembered/known by the creatures in the next/future eternities).",

Ecclesiastes 9:2 (NASB) "It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.",

1 Corinthians 4:7 (NIV) "who makes you different from anyone else?",

Revelation 19:3 (Aramaic Bible in PE) "her smoke ascends to the eternity of eternities."

this is the biblical doctrine of eternal judgment

Blessings
 
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Dwells

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being different is a thing and different interpretation is another thing..the Quran is true and didn't change since it was revealed yet the difference in interpretation cannot be a proof of being wrong or corrupted
Well how would one know which interpretation is the truth within the Quran?
 
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Eyes wide Open

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From a very high level analysis: Your attachment to the man resulted in an action which caused a birth, and birth always results in decay and death, which results in dukkha.

A very high level analysis, interesting. No in that moment I experienced none of those things.
 
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ananda

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... once recorded the data cannot be changed and remains the same on the media to the last, so is the eternity, once something is done in the current eternity, the same is exactly what will be done in every next/future eternity at the same time and place it happened in the current eternity - IOW, we humans are the ones that draw our destiny, whatever we do in the current eternity, the same is what will be done in every next/future eternity by the same personalities that we are now, so the eternity is like one movie/film that replays over and over again in the course of the time's infinity, only the "actors" are successively alternated as to the "roles" (one step ahead for every eternity), everyone will successively be in the place and position of any other......
Unfortunately, I have no knowledge of this dogma for myself. What I can and do see is constant change.
 
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ananda

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A very high level analysis, interesting. No in that moment I experienced none of those things.
I didn't expect you would have experienced immediate dukkha. Instead, you probably experienced short-term sukkha from the act of giving, and so did the other man, being temporarily enriched.

In the long-term sense, you provided him a bit of extra money, probably prolonging for a bit of additional time his temporal, physical existence (and thus extending his experience of long-term dukkha).
 
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Silmarien

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Man is evil in his very nature. I don't see any reason to water this truth down. If one does not fundamentally understand the anthropology of man, then to claim that men seek God, in and of themselves, is erroneous.

Eh, I don't think you can take a stance that's stronger than Scripture requires and then declare it necessary to understand human nature. I certainly wouldn't claim that human nature is good, but there's such a thing as unnecessary dichotomization.

The idea that there's no need to ever water this down has been troubling to me for a while, though. How do Calvinists handle people with depression and self-hatred issues? The whole approach seems like it could very easily slip into emotional abuse. (I'm asking seriously. I've seen evangelicals handle the issue well before, but mostly ones who've been marginalized in some way.)

If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't have created this thread, and contributed to its growth to 46 pages :D

And here I thought you just wanted to fight with everyone. :p
 
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Eyes wide Open

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I didn't expect you would have experienced immediate dukkha. Instead, you probably experienced short-term sukkha from the act of giving, and so did the other man, being temporarily enriched.

In the long-term sense, you provided him a bit of extra money, probably prolonging for a bit of additional time his temporal, physical existence (and thus extending his experience of long-term dukkha).

As I said prior these are statements not explanations. For you to explain why a reciprocal interactive connection between two humans is dysfunctional involves you casting your net into concepts and hypotheticals, things you don't know. You also make assumptions about me and the person I interacted with.
Finding dysfunction in the way we interacted and making those statements is no different than a Christian telling you Buddhism is not the right path for you because it doesn't get you into heaven. I'm assuming that would mean very little to you on your path?
 
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ananda

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As I said prior these are statements not explanations. For you to explain why a reciprocal interactive connection between two humans is dysfunctional involves you casting your net into concepts and hypotheticals, things you don't know. You also make assumptions about me and the person I interacted with.
Finding dysfunction in the way we interacted and making those statements is no different than a Christian telling you Buddhism is not the right path for you because it doesn't get you into heaven. I'm assuming that would mean very little to you on your path?
When did I claim your interaction with the man was dysfunctional?
 
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ananda

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it seems as if you are extremely dull

Blessings
Perhaps so. Is that an official judgment of a prophet of the true One, or a personal opinion?

My foundation rests on personal knowledge, not blind faith. If that is dullness, then I am content to be dull.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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There was a long-term study on how people change over time, with hundreds of participants filling out a survey in early adulthood, and then again thirty years later.

The results were clear: there was virtually no connection between the younger and the older persona, even though they were part of the same continuity.

The self is an activity, not an essence. A performative act, not an immutable substance.
 
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JoeP222w

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The idea that there's no need to ever water this down has been troubling to me for a while, though. How do Calvinists handle people with depression and self-hatred issues?

Calvinists, by the grace of God, would handle counseling depression and self-hatred, from principles of the Bible. You treat people with grace, love, dignity and respect, but you don't compromise on the truth. There really is no way to Biblically counsel and unbeliever unless God has first done a work of grace in their heart and saved them from their sin.

Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
 
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