Theological Questions for Day-Age Creationists

klutedavid said:

Hello Mark.

Thanks for your contribution.

If we date a world wide flood, at say 3000 BC. Then we start with eight people, that in a very short space of time, repopulate the earth. To such an extent, that at the time of Jesus we have a world population of approximately 300 hundred million people.

Something is wrong here, what's your solution?

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The numbers are off, statistical estimates are hard for me to accept as convincing. At the turn of the 20th century there were about a billion people on planet earth, now we are at seven and on pace to exceed 9 billion in our lifetime.

This suggests a pattern, one of the strongest factors facilitating the population growth goes back to the discovery of the New World. As agriculture, livestock and trade developed populations grew at exponential rates. Before the Flood people started procreating in their hundreds on average, Noah was 500 years old. After the Flood it was generally some time in their thirties.

Of course there are other factors to consider but the growth rate of populations are readily understood in modern times but in antiquity we are considerably more limited.

One set of estimates indicate that around 8,000 BC there were 5 million. In the first century estimates hover between 150 million to 300 million. 1600s it was over 500 million which seems roughly static, doubling in 1500 years. (World population estimates, Wikipedia)

There is also a dynamic that involves genomics and the availability of resources and new geological regions triggering adaptive evolution.

mark kennedy said:

The numbers are off, statistical estimates are hard for me to accept as convincing. At the turn of the 20th century there were about a billion people on planet earth, now we are at seven and on pace to exceed 9 billion in our lifetime.

Total world population reached 7 billion just after 2010 and is expected to count 9 billion by 2045...At the beginning of the 19th century, the number of 1 billion people was exceeded for the first time in history. Subsequently growth accelerated and the number of 2 billion people was already surpassed around 1920. By 1960, another billion had been added, in 40 instead of 120 years time. And it continued to go even faster: 4 billion by 1974, 5 billion by 1987, 6 billion by 1999 and 7 billion in 2011 (The world population explosion: causes, backgrounds and projections for the future US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health 2013)
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This suggests a pattern, one of the strongest factors facilitating the population growth goes back to the discovery of the New World. As agriculture, livestock and trade developed populations grew at exponential rates. Before the Flood people started procreating in their hundreds on average, Noah was 500 years old. After the Flood it was generally some time in their thirties.

Of course there are other factors to consider but the growth rate of populations are readily understood in modern times but in antiquity we are considerably more limited.

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Hello Mark.

Have to agree with your comment about the statistics, merely estimates of population.

One of the big factors in population growth is reducing infant mortality. During the twentieth century (medical discoveries), the world population graph then became exponential. Before the twentieth century the population growth rate was very low.

Yet the flood occurred at say 3000 BC, then in roughly 1500 years (Moses, Exodus), we have Egypt with a population of between 2 and 4 million people. How do we get eight people on Mt Ararat, Turkey, to Egypt with millions of people in 1500 years?

klutedavid said:

Hello Mark.

Have to agree with your comment about the statistics, merely estimates of population.

One of the big factors in population growth is reducing infant mortality. During the twentieth century (medical discoveries), the world population graph then became exponential. Before the twentieth century the population growth rate was very low.

Yet the flood occurred at say 3000 BC, then in roughly 1500 years (Moses, Exodus), we have Egypt with a population of between 2 and 4 million people. How do we get eight people on Mt Ararat, to Egypt with millions of people in 1500 years?

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Populations and dates are rough estimates. Egypt is unquestionably the first civilization in human history getting it's start no more then 10,000 years ago. The Nile branches out in northern Africa into extensive tributaries which made for lush farmland. The large numbers of population squares with the Biblical account, starting in Egypt the march of civilization sweeps north and east up into the Middle East, then Greece, Rome, Spain and further west over time.

Just as populations grew exponentially as a result of the discovery of the New World in makes sense that it would grow quickly in Egypt and the fertile crescent, based on agriculture, livestock and trade. The time of the flood would have been about 2000 BC, if you take into consideration exponential growth and spotty population estimates it makes sense that rapid population was the order of the day.

While the numbers are sketchy the population of Israel went from 70 to, well some estimate, numbers in the millions in between 400 and 500 years. It got to the point that Egyptians thought they were going to become minority:


Those estimates look a little high to me but as you can see in a relatively short space of time population numbers can climb into the millions. I don't pretend to have all the answers here but it's certainly conceivable that from sparce early numbers exponential growth can account for 8 in all becoming millions in the space of a few hundred years.

mark kennedy said:

Populations and dates are rough estimates. Egypt is unquestionably the first civilization in human history getting it's start no more then 10,000 years ago. The Nile branches out in northern Africa into extensive tributaries which made for lush farmland. The large numbers of population squares with the Biblical account, starting in Egypt the march of civilization sweeps north and east up into the Middle East, then Greece, Rome, Spain and further west over time.

Just as populations grew exponentially as a result of the discovery of the New World in makes sense that it would grow quickly in Egypt and the fertile crescent, based on agriculture, livestock and trade. The time of the flood would have been about 2000 BC, if you take into consideration exponential growth and spotty population estimates it makes sense that rapid population was the order of the day.

While the numbers are sketchy the population of Israel went from 70 to, well some estimate, numbers in the millions in between 400 and 500 years. It got to the point that Egyptians thought they were going to become minority:

How many families? Reduce the potential 653,846 able-bodied families by 53,846 to account for the unmarried. This assumes about 8% of the able-bodied population never married and never produced children. Then there would be 3,600,000 children for 600,000 families. This brings Israel’s estimated total population to 5,169,230. (Population Growth of Israel in Egypt)​

Those estimates look a little high to me but as you can see in a relatively short space of time population numbers can climb into the millions. I don't pretend to have all the answers here but it's certainly conceivable that from sparce early numbers exponential growth can account for 8 in all becoming millions in the space of a few hundred years.

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Hello Mark.

Your dating the flood at 2000 BC?

By about 3600 BC, neolithic Egyptian societies along the Nile had based their culture on the raising of crops and the domestication of animals.[2] Shortly after 3600 BC Egyptian society began to grow and advance rapidly toward refined civilization.[3] A new and distinctive pottery, which was related to the pottery in the Southern Levant, appeared during this time. Extensive use of copper became common during this time.[3] The Mesopotamian process of sun-dried bricks, and architectural building principles—including the use of the arch and recessed walls for decorative effect—became popular during this time. (wikipedia)

The time around 3100 BC was when the first pharaoh took power in Egypt. Upper and lower Egypt combined into one empire under this pharaoh. Your saying the flood took place in 2000 BC, which chops more than a thousand years from Egyptian history?

klutedavid said:

Hello Mark.

Your dating the flood at 2000 BC?

By about 3600 BC, neolithic Egyptian societies along the Nile had based their culture on the raising of crops and the domestication of animals.[2] Shortly after 3600 BC Egyptian society began to grow and advance rapidly toward refined civilization.[3] A new and distinctive pottery, which was related to the pottery in the Southern Levant, appeared during this time. Extensive use of copper became common during this time.[3] The Mesopotamian process of sun-dried bricks, and architectural building principles—including the use of the arch and recessed walls for decorative effect—became popular during this time. (wikipedia)

The time around 3100 BC was when the first pharaoh took power in Egypt. Upper and lower Egypt combined into one empire under this pharaoh. Your saying the flood took place in 2000 BC, which chops more than a thousand years from Egyptian history?

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I must confess a preference for the Biblical timeline and a lack of confidence in the dates normally assigned to the rise of Egypt.

Speedwell said:

Some of them do, but I thought you were talking about giving the text to someone we knew.

It called for a flood of the entire eretz. If you want to translate eretz as "the entire terrestrial globe" go right ahead.

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As I said..the language and the way the account is told informs us the flood was global. When you go in with your biblical gymnastics and change the story.....force it to fit your views...contradicting other portions of scripture...you pollute the Word of God with the word of man.

klutedavid said:

Hello Mark.

Thanks for your contribution.

If we date a world wide flood, at say 3000 BC. Then we start with eight people, that in a very short space of time, repopulate the earth. To such an extent, that at the time of Jesus we have a world population of approximately 300 hundred million people.

Something is wrong here, what's your solution?

Click to expand...

Why is that a problem? Keep in mind you made a claim and didn't support why your claim was correct.

Perhaps I should ask....if man is as old as you claim...why only 300 million people in the time of Christ. Theres should have been much more.

klutedavid said:

Hello 57.

You have an immense problem, with a reconciliation of observable archaeology. In a world inhabited by eight people, after the flood, just say 5000 years ago. There are cities with a continuous habitation over a longer period of time, far beyond five thousand years.

A settlement of great antiquity, Argos has been continuously inhabited as at least a substantial village for the past 7,000 years. (wikipedia)

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The World isn't 7,000 years old. the bible trumps wikipedia for truth.

SkyWriting said:

Theology - There is no hint of a young earth in scripture.
Science - The sun was formed on day 3. So there goes the light-cycle theory.

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Are you aying there wasn't any light prior to the sun?

-57 said:

Are you aying there wasn't any light prior to the sun?

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I'm saying the 24 hour day is defined as one point on the globe that spins around to the same spot 24 hours later with the sun in the same position overhead. Requiring a 24 hour day for genesis means the frame of reference is one point on a spinning globe.

Or if you are a flat earth fan then the pancakes flips, or the light bulb switches on and off.
The 24 hour requirement doesn't fit well with the idea that the heavens are being formed.
Unless is was Jesus standing on the earth doing the creating. That might work.

SkyWriting said:

I'm saying the 24 hour day is defined as one point on the globe that spins around to the same spot 24 hours later with the sun in the same position overhead. Requiring a 24 hour day for genesis means the frame of reference is one point on a spinning globe.

Or if you are a flat earth fan then the pancakes flips, or the light bulb switches on and off.
The 24 hour requirement doesn't fit well with the idea that the heavens are being formed.
Unless is was Jesus standing on the earth doing the creating. That might work.

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When God said, "let there be light" ....could it have been coming from a single point shining on one side of the spinning earth ?

No. I'm not flat earth.

-57 said:

When God said, "let there be light" ....could it have been coming from a single point shining on one side of the spinning earth ?

No. I'm not flat earth.

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It could. Where do we believe God was standing (God is Spirit) at the time this was written
so that He would experience a 24 hour day?

SkyWriting said:

It could. Where do we believe God was standing (God is Spirit) at the time this was written
so that He would experience a 24 hour day?

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I'm not quite sure where this is going..but I originally responded to this statement made by you..."Theology - There is no hint of a young earth in scripture.
Science - The sun was formed on day 3. So there goes the light-cycle theory."

You said there was no hint of a young earth in scripture...I disagree. The linages going back to Adam in the garden made on day 6 indicate a young earth "hinted" at in the bible.

On what day in Genesis 1 was the earth created?

Sanoy said:

On what day in Genesis 1 was the earth created?

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It has to be at the original creation, before creation week started. Then again, if you see that the original creation and the first day of creation week are inextricably linked it would have to be day one.

-57 said:

The World isn't 7,000 years old. the bible trumps wikipedia for truth.

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I still think it's important to consider that the earth and the universe could be billions of years old while life was created 6,000 to 8,000 years ago. So of course soil samples would appear old while ancient and prehistoric remnants, like fossils mineralized by old elements, give the appearance of great age. Either way, the dating methods are dubious and largely irrelevant to the doctrine of creation.

mark kennedy said:

It has to be at the original creation, before creation week started.

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That's it. The creation of earth is not assigned to a day. We haven't a need to assign an age to the earth at all. The whole chapter describes the intimate preparation of the earth for the habitation of mankind.

Sanoy said:

That's it. The creation of earth is not assigned to a day. We haven't a need to assign an age to the earth at all. The whole chapter describes the intimate preparation of the earth for the habitation of mankind.

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That's what I concluded years ago, the earth and the cosmos may well be very old but the doctrine of creation is focused on the creation of life. I saw creationism as being focused on two primary lines of evidence, geological and biological. I choose to pursue biological and I've focused primarily on genetics since then. Now mind you, it is called a 'day' but not the same way the days of creation are called the first day, second day...etc.

The phrase, 'heaven and the earth', is a Hebrew expression meaning the universe. All we really get from this passage is that the cosmos and earth were created, 'in the beginning'. The perspective of creation week is from the surface of the earth, starting with the Spirit of God hovering over the deep (Gen. 1:2). In the chapter there are three words used for God's work in creation. The first is 'created' ('bara' H1254), It is used once to describe the creation of the universe (Gen 1:1), then again to describe the creation of life (Gen 1:21). Finally, in the closing verses, it is used three times for the creation of Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:27).

The word translated, 'made' (asah 6213) , has a much broader range of meaning and is used to speak of the creation of the 'firmament' (Gen 1:7), the sun, moon and stars (Gen 1:16), procreation where offspring are made 'after his/their kind' (Gen 1:25) and as a general reference to creation in it's vast array (Gen 1:31).

Then there is a third term when God 'set' (nathan H2414), the lights of the sun, moon and stars so that their light is reqularly visible from the surface of the earth.

What I think happened is God created the universe, in the beginning, perhaps minutes or perhaps billions of years before God prepared the earth for, and created life. When it says that God made the sun, moon and stars and set them in the heavens that's not calling them into existence. I think he was still working on the firmament, making them regularly visible.

I think it's just possible God has done this before and will do it again, across the universe.

Grace and peace,
Mark

This is the way I, as I am not ashamed to say, a young earth creationist, fundamental, literal bible believer, takes Genesis...

Read it slow. Then........ask yourself...

1/ Could God have done it exactly as it says.
2/ What is it that makes you doubt it other than the words of men and women.
3/ Are you going to believe the words of God when HE states that He did something that was totally in His Power to do? Or are you going to doubt this because of what mere men say?

I find that when people have trouble with the literal Genesis, they are doubtful due to the teachings of some secular school agenda, some science view or some other observation of men who live within the confines of the universe God created.

In other words, men saying that they know better than God. Men saying that the simple description that God gave us is wrong because they saw something or measured something or they can't figure something out. Or, men that don't believe in God. Or men that must prove there is no God. They could also be men who have a lot of explaining to do if it happened the way God had it presented in Genesis.

All will be revealed. Any explaining God has to do about this event, when we see Him, will be met with Ahhhhh, ya, that makes total sense, I was such a fool to believe men before God.

Remember, the majority of the science of these days are very antagonistic to anything that leans toward God or anything indicating that there is a God or anything that supports the Bible.

Science today is controlled by the movement of Strong Atheistic forces.
Any Christian scientist will be discredited for showing evidence that supports Biblical views.

No longer do scientists view new discoveries and observations as something to shine light on the ever changing truth and expanding knowledge of mankind..


Nope, now science has decided what "truth" is and all new discoveries and observations are only valid if they hit the bulls eye and back up the predetermined truth.

Anything shining light on the errors of said predetermined truth will be ignored, criticized, portrayed as a fabrication or hoax or hidden or destroyed. Especially if they expose the need for a supreme being or supernatural events already described in the Bible, to be explainable.

Universities are no longer places to challenge existing beliefs and standards of though...no,no,no.. they are places to fixate the student and indoctrinate them with these beliefs and standards as things to stand on as solid truth and not to be questioned.

Just think if any university student was to question the validity of Einstein's theory of relativity or the theory of gravity... trying to continue to prove it is fine. Questioning it is out of the question. Same would go for the theory of evolution.

No, academia has changed.

SkyWriting said:

Theology - There is no hint of a young earth in scripture.
Science - The sun was formed on day 3. So there goes the light-cycle theory.

Click to expand...

The bible has no indication of being any older than approx. 6000 years. If taken literal and the genealogy is followed along with the other historic facts of the Bible, it is only 6000, give or take, years old.

So, now you are saying that the earth needs a sun to have light and also to have a 24 hour period? This is the application of the needs of men over the needs of God.

God created light, He needs no sun to give the earth light and He didn't need the sun to justify what 24 hours was... He did create the sun and moon in order for mankind to have a method to measure it. It was always there for God, from day one, and measurable, by man, on day three.

We should not put God in the same box that we live in. Or constrain Him with the same limits of knowledge that we have.

A child may not know how long an hour is. Give this child one of those old sand filled hour glasses where all the sand runs out in one hour, then you flip it over...

Now, an hour span of time always existed for the child as it did for you. You knew and were aware of how long an hour was, the child was not........now, with the hour glass, the child has a metric. He now knows how long an hour is by the emptying sand. The time for one hour did not magically exist because of the hour glass. It was there all the time.