Should or should not this be taken literally?

DavidPT said:

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

If this is to be taken literally, no one can then still deny this is yet in our future. No one who is being intellectually honest could, that is.

The text says----the LORD will smite. That should settle it right there this has to be meaning a literal event, thus one can't spiritualize this away and try and make the text mean something else altogether instead.


The following is a similar example of something the LORD had said He would do, then did exactly what He said He would do.

2 Chronicles 21:14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:
15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day.

The fulfillment of these words----


2 Chronicles 21:18 And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.
19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.


Why then do some people falsely claim Zech 14 is not still future, but already in our past? Why would one take the plague mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 in the literal sense, thus concluding this literally happened in history, while at the same time, in total disbelief about the plague in Zechariah 14:12, thus feeling the need to change the text to mean something that agrees with their position, rather than agreeing with the text itself?

And since Zechariah 14:12 has to be meaning literally, thus this will get fulfilled the same way the plague in 2 Chronicles 21 got fulfilled, no way has this event already been fulfilled in the past 2000 years.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Obviously this has to be meaning a time after the LORD has smitten all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. And since it has to be, how does this passage make sense unless there is a time period following the 2nd coming? And how can that time period not be meaning this same thousand years mentioned in Rev 20?

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I think it is possible... certainly that 'God will smite' but the imagery around the first example (Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth) could be abstract but also reads like what would happen in a nuclear attack. Now that doesn't mean God shoots one off, but it could mean He doesn't stop it, or even hardens/strengthens the heart of the leader who does. This puts God behind the action and the phrase "The Lord will smite" can fit, but it is happening as a means to an end... so that His glory will be revealed through it all. This is exactly what happened in Egypt with the plagues before the exodus.

Your last example, Zech. 16:16-19 I think is very literal. We all have this idea we are living in heaven but heaven wasn't made for man, the earth was. I think the Jehovah's Witnesses have this one right. The meek inherit the earth... the Lord will come here and reign for 1000 years and we will reign with him. To "reign" means there will be others to reign over and at the end of the 1000 years the Adversary is let loose to "deceive the nations." That means there will be nations and this Zechariah verse confirms this. They won't be us... we will have been changed, and we will be reigning with him.... but others will be alive, on the outside looking in if you will. And... taking part in aspects of the Law that Christianity teaches were done away with... which opens up another can of worms... does it make sense that we did those things, stopped for 2000 years, and then do them again?

DavidPT said:

I like your thinking on this. Thanks for the input thusfar. I agree this plague could be caused by the effects of nuclear war, and because God allows this, it doesn't contradict Him doing the smiting by a supernatural means instead. And if something nuclear can explain this, even more proof Zech 14 has not been fulfilled yet.

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There is a lot in the Prophets (I believe) that has not been fulfilled. We have a Christian culture that believes that nothing is left to do and Yeshua can come back at any time. But I don't think that is a sound conclusion... for example, those that study the Feasts (which all point to various aspects of his work) generally come away with the idea that the Spring Feasts were mostly fulfilled by his first coming and that the Fall Feasts will be fulfilled when he returns. There is work on the table yet to be done... we have not been perfected yet, the much prophesied exiles coming out of the nations has not happened, the full reunification of all of Israel is still on the table, and more. Just look at this verse again...

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

When did all the nations come up against Jerusalem? That hasn't happened yet.... nor is the King here... there has been no "King" over a united Israel since Solomon and won't be until messiah returns. This is definitely still before us. (IMHO)

DavidPT said:

Why then do some people falsely claim Zech 14 is not still future, but already in our past? Why would one take the plague mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 in the literal sense, thus concluding this literally happened in history, while at the same time, in total disbelief about the plague in Zechariah 14:12, thus feeling the need to change the text to mean something that agrees with their position, rather than agreeing with the text itself?

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I've stopped asking why long ago. Some of it has to do with a backwards approach to Scripture. They develop a theory first(or take someone else's theory) and then bend or outright trash the Scripture to fit their theory. Systematic study is a foreign concept to them since they have settled into complacent armchair commentary and Googling. It's no different than those who "spiritualize" everything, cling to the idea of British Israelism, or think the tribulation is currently ongoing.
Sometimes you have to ask what their motives are, because I don't see how any Holy Spirit driven Christian falls into some of these ideas and sticks in them like a June bug in molasses, and that's some pretty thick molasses.
Common sense seems to be lacking as well. Like I said in one of my other posts, some individuals would rather change all of the plumbing in their house(and maybe knock out a few walls) for a new commode or sink instead of simply using an appropriate one.

DavidPT said:

I like your thinking on this. Thanks for the input thusfar. I agree this plague could be caused by the effects of nuclear war, and because God allows this, it doesn't contradict Him doing the smiting by a supernatural means instead. And if something nuclear can explain this, even more proof Zech 14 has not been fulfilled yet.

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Or some type of chemical or biological attach; but either way weapon of mass destruction; though God himself may send a/the angel of death directly.

When the end time prophecies of the Old testament are systematically studied, they fit together in a consistent whole. They describe Judah in the land when this period begins, but there in a state of rebellion and unbelief. Then they describe a long series of severe judgments that will fall on this guilty nation. But they specifically say that these judgments are not meant to destroy them, but to bring them to repentance.

But when they have been reduced to the very point of death, and as a result a sufficient number f them have repented, These same prophetic scriptures plainly say that Messiah will come in might and power and deliver them.

After He comes, Isaiah 66 clearly says that He will AT THAT TIME (and not before that time) He will bring all Israel back to the land. And Ezekiel 20 just as plainly says that as they return, He will purge out all the rebels from among them.

It is only after that time that the future time of blessing will begin.

DavidPT said:

how does this passage make sense unless there is a time period following the 2nd coming?

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You're absolutely right, the plague that hit nations who attacked Jerusalem is further explained by John :
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

Biblewriter said:

After He comes, Isaiah 66 clearly says that He will AT THAT TIME (and not before that time) He will bring all Israel back to the land. And Ezekiel 20 just as plainly says that as they return, He will purge out all the rebels from among them.

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Just who is 'all Israel'?
They cannot be just the Jewish people, who were just 2/12ths of ALL Israel and the Jews cannot be 'all Israel' today either, as Israel is said to be 'as many as the sands of the sea'.

As you say, in Ezekiel 20:34-45, the people are brought back to near the holy Land and the rebels purged out, before the rest march into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8-38, Jeremiah 31:1-40, +
So who exactly are they? Every true Christian, that's who. The sons of the Living God; in the very place that the ethnic people were told they were no longer God's people. Romans 9:24-26

Note that Ezekiel 20:46-48 and Ezekiel 21:1-7 describe the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, that will clear and cleanse the entire Middle east region, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +, ready for all the Lord's righteous believers to live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 34:11:31

keras said:

Just who is 'all Israel'?
They cannot be just the Jewish people, who were just 2/12ths of ALL Israel and the Jews cannot be 'all Israel' today either, as Israel is said to be 'as many as the sands of the sea'.

So who exactly are they? Every true Christian, that's who. The sons of the Living God; in the very place that the ethnic people were told they were no longer God's people. Romans 9:24-26

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This is pure interpretation, as not even one scripture anywhere expressly states this idea. And this interpretation directly contradicts Ezekiel 47:13 to 48:29.

13 Thus says the Lord GOD: "These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance. 15 This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side. 18 On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side. 19 The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South. 20 The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side. 21 "Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance," says the Lord GOD.
1 "Now these are the names of the tribes: From the northern border along the road to Hethlon at the entrance of Hamath, to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus northward, in the direction of Hamath, there shall be one section for Dan from its east to its west side; 2 by the border of Dan, from the east side to the west, one section for Asher; 3 by the border of Asher, from the east side to the west, one section for Naphtali; 4 by the border of Naphtali, from the east side to the west, one section for Manasseh; 5 by the border of Manasseh, from the east side to the west, one section for Ephraim; 6 by the border of Ephraim, from the east side to the west, one section for Reuben; 7 by the border of Reuben, from the east side to the west, one section for Judah; 8 "by the border of Judah, from the east side to the west, shall be the district which you shall set apart, twenty-five thousand cubits in width, and in length the same as one of the other portions, from the east side to the west, with the sanctuary in the center. 9 "The district that you shall set apart for the LORD shall be twenty-five thousand cubits in length and ten thousand in width. 10 To these--to the priests--the holy district shall belong: on the north twenty-five thousand cubits in length, on the west ten thousand in width, on the east ten thousand in width, and on the south twenty-five thousand in length. The sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the center. 11 It shall be for the priests of the sons of Zadok, who are sanctified, who have kept My charge, who did not go astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. 12 And this district of land that is set apart shall be to them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites. 13 "Opposite the border of the priests, the Levites shall have an area twenty-five thousand cubits in length and ten thousand in width; its entire length shall be twenty-five thousand and its width ten thousand. 14 And they shall not sell or exchange any of it; they may not alienate this best part of the land, for it is holy to the LORD. 15 "The five thousand cubits in width that remain, along the edge of the twenty-five thousand, shall be for general use by the city, for dwellings and common-land; and the city shall be in the center. 16 These shall be its measurements: the north side four thousand five hundred cubits, the south side four thousand five hundred, the east side four thousand five hundred, and the west side four thousand five hundred. 17 The common-land of the city shall be: to the north two hundred and fifty cubits, to the south two hundred and fifty, to the east two hundred and fifty, and to the west two hundred and fifty. 18 The rest of the length, alongside the district of the holy section, shall be ten thousand cubits to the east and ten thousand to the west. It shall be adjacent to the district of the holy section, and its produce shall be food for the workers of the city. 19 The workers of the city, from all the tribes of Israel, shall cultivate it. 20 The entire district shall be twenty-five thousand cubits by twenty-five thousand cubits, foursquare. You shall set apart the holy district with the property of the city. 21 "The rest shall belong to the prince, on one side and on the other of the holy district and of the city's property, next to the twenty-five thousand cubits of the holy district as far as the eastern border, and westward next to the twenty-five thousand as far as the western border, adjacent to the tribal portions; it shall belong to the prince. It shall be the holy district, and the sanctuary of the temple shall be in the center. 22 Moreover, apart from the possession of the Levites and the possession of the city which are in the midst of what belongs to the prince, the area between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall belong to the prince. 23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side to the west, Benjamin shall have one section; 24 by the border of Benjamin, from the east side to the west, Simeon shall have one section; 25 by the border of Simeon, from the east side to the west, Issachar shall have one section; 26 by the border of Issachar, from the east side to the west, Zebulun shall have one section; 27 by the border of Zebulun, from the east side to the west, Gad shall have one section; 28 by the border of Gad, on the south side, toward the South, the border shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. 29 This is the land which you shall divide by lot as an inheritance among the tribes of Israel, and these are their portions," says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 47:13-48:29

This section not only explicitly states the borders of the future land of Israel, but which part of that land will be inherited by each of the twelve tribes.

keras said:

As you say, in Ezekiel 20:34-45, the people are brought back to near the holy Land and the rebels purged out, before the rest march into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 36:8-38, Jeremiah 31:1-40, +
So who exactly are they? Every true Christian, that's who. The sons of the Living God; in the very place that the ethnic people were told they were no longer God's people. Romans 9:24-26

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The purging of every true Christian already took place at the cross. Any imagined future purging of even one true Christian is a denial of the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Biblewriter said:

This section not only explicitly states the borders of the future land of Israel, but which part of that land will be inherited by each of the twelve tribes.

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So is the Jewish State of Israel 'all of Israel'?
Hardly likely, as I pointed out; 7 million does not equate with 'as many as the sands of the sea'. Also the Jews themselves admit that the 10 Northern tribes remain 'scattered among the nations'. There is an entire discourse between Rabbi Akiva and others, circa Middle ages, about when the 10 other tribes would rejoin with the Jews. Ezekiel 37 has not yet happened, proved by how God says He will put His Spirit into them then.
We see in Isaiah 66:21, the proof that the Lord will assign His Christian people into the various tribes according to each persons characteristic and abilities.

Biblewriter said:

The purging of every true Christian already took place at the cross. Any imagined future purging of even one true Christian is a denial of the finished work of Christ on the cross.

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Correct, but sadly there are rather a lot of people who act like Christians, but are actually not and the Lord will say to them: I never knew you.

BTW, flooding the thread with lengthy scripture quotes, is the tactic of those with flimsy or non-existent support for their views.

To dismiss an explicitly stated Bible prophecy on the basis that it is "Hardly likely," is nothing more that simple unbelief. You could not imagine a less "likely" prophecy that that "a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son." But it happened. And the very long quotation was required because the scriptures do indeed, and explicitly define, not only the borders of the land that will be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it," (Ezekiel 36:10) but also explicitly define which parts of that land will be inherited by each of the twelve tribes.

What you are denying is things that God has explicitly said will happen, and not only that God has explicitly said, but said in plain, simple, language which cannot be misunderstood. You have only two choices. Believe what God said or not believe it.

Biblewriter said:

This is pure interpretation, as not even one scripture anywhere expressly states this idea. And this interpretation directly contradicts Ezekiel 47:13 to 48:29.

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Heb 8:6　 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.　
Heb 8:8　 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:　


2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


　
Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


Galatians 6:16
(CJB)　 And as many as order their lives by this rule, shalom upon them and mercy, and upon the Isra'el of God!
(ESV)　 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
(Geneva)　 And as many as walke according to this rule, peace shalbe vpon them, and mercie, and vpon the Israel of God.
(GW)　 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.
(LITV-TSP)　 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them and on the Israel of God.
(KJV)　 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(KJV+)　 AndG2532 as many asG3745 walkG4748 according to thisG5129 rule,G2583 peaceG1515 be onG1909 them,G846 andG2532 mercy,G1656 andG2532 uponG1909 theG3588 IsraelG2474 of God.G2316

(NKJV)　 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
(YLT)　 and as many as by this rule do walk—peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!

.

BABerean2 said:

Heb 8:6　 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.　
Heb 8:8　 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:　


2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


　
Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


Galatians 6:16
(CJB)　 And as many as order their lives by this rule, shalom upon them and mercy, and upon the Isra'el of God!
(ESV)　 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
(Geneva)　 And as many as walke according to this rule, peace shalbe vpon them, and mercie, and vpon the Israel of God.
(GW)　 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.
(LITV-TSP)　 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace and mercy be on them and on the Israel of God.
(KJV)　 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(KJV+)　 AndG2532 as many asG3745 walkG4748 according to thisG5129 rule,G2583 peaceG1515 be onG1909 them,G846 andG2532 mercy,G1656 andG2532 uponG1909 theG3588 IsraelG2474 of God.G2316

(NKJV)　 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
(YLT)　 and as many as by this rule do walk—peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!

.

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You are interpreting these scriptures to mean that the Old Testament prophecies will not actually be fulfilled. But not even one of them, or any other scripture, actually says that.

Biblewriter said:

You are interpreting these scriptures to mean that the Old Testament prophecies will not actually be fulfilled. But not even one of them, or any other scripture, actually says that.

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Luk 24:25　 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!　
Luk 24:26　 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"　
Luk 24:27　 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.


　
Mat 1:1　 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:　

Gal 3:16　 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.　

.

Biblewriter said:

To dismiss an explicitly stated Bible prophecy on the basis that it is "Hardly likely," is nothing more that simple unbelief. You could not imagine a less "likely" prophecy that that "a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son." But it happened. And the very long quotation was required because the scriptures do indeed, and explicitly define, not only the borders of the land that will be inhabited by "all the house of Israel, all of it," (Ezekiel 36:10) but also explicitly define which parts of that land will be inherited by each of the twelve tribes.

What you are denying is things that God has explicitly said will happen, and not only that God has explicitly said, but said in plain, simple, language which cannot be misunderstood. You have only two choices. Believe what God said or not believe it.

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I do not deny that 'all Israel' will inhabit all of the holy Land. If you had read my articles and many posts here, etc, you would know that truth is my main premise for the future of God's people. A 'vast multitude' of people, who will fill all the holy Land until they say: Make room for us all here!... Isaiah 49:14-20
Far more than just the Jewish people, who total about 14 million.

The dispute arises when people contradict New Testament teachings, that prove who God's people really are since Jesus came. The real Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16 NOT just the Jews, but every born again believer, Jew or Gentile.
Ethnicity counts for nothing, Ephesians 2:11-18, it will be every individual Christian believer from every race, nation and language, who will live in the new nation of Beulah, soon after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord's Day of wrath. Deuteronomy 32:43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
They are there in Revelation 7:9, after the Sixth Seal - Day of the Lord's wrath. Gathered as described in Ezekiel 34:11-31, Psalms 107, +, gathered and blessed by God, being the people God always wanted in His Land; His witnesses and a Light to the nations.
The Jews have no proof of their tribal affiliations, only God knows who of His people, belong to which tribe. Amos 9:9
Proved by Isaiah 66:21

Double post

Sorry, triple post. Internet problems!