In laying upon the foundation of God's saving grace, does Sanctification (holy living) also save?

Jason0047 said:

To ask the question:

"Can we be consider to be saved from sin while we continue to sin?"​

And then answer:

"Yes and no."​

Well, this is misleading. While it is true that there are three different tenses of salvation (Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification), I would not say the words, "continue in sin" in relation to those three tenses of salvation (as being okay with God in any way). Yes, believers can honestly struggle with sin in their early walk with God, but this is not continuing in sin, but it is merely a believer stumbling. It is a believer fighting to put the old man away before they can walk maturally in the Lord. This is a huge difference than a believer continuing in sin wrongfully (Whereby there is no mercy and grace for them).

For a believer cannot abide in serious unrepentant sin like hate, or lying, or lusting after a woman and be saved. It doesn't work like that. If that is not what you are saying, then I apologize for misunderstanding you.


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I am in agreement, but I think the issue is in phrasing. We do not become sinless when we become believers, but rather we begin being trained by grace to sin less, but nevertheless still continue to sin. I would consider someone to be practicing sin who was no longer struggling against sin and no longer practicing repentance. While our goal is to refrain from sin, we still continue to stumble, so the issue is that while there are some aspects of our salvation that are complete, not all aspects of our salvation from sin can be said to be complete while we still continue to stumble. Our salvation from sin must include being saved from the penalty, but must also include being made into someone who like Christ in whom there is no sin when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the Day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

Jason0047 said:

Hmmm, I need a little more clarity than that, my friend.

Do you believe a person can die in unrepentant sin like lying or lusting after a woman and be saved?
Yes, or no?

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I do not believe that anyone is sent to hell because they had a lustful thought and died before they had a chance to repent. Every single prophet up to including Jesus came with the message to repent from our sins, so the key issue is whether we are someone who practices repentance.

Do you believe a believer can overcome sin in this life?
Yes, or no?

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Yes, if you mean that we are able to struggle with a temptation to sin and overcome, no, if you mean that a believer can reach a state where they no longer stumble.

If a believer cannot overcome sin in this life, why would God allow this to take place?
Is not God powerful enough to help the believer to overcome their sin?
If we knew we could never stop sinning in this life, then what would be the point in trying to fight against sinning if it was just inevitable?

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Our goal is to become sinless like Christ, who lived in sinless obedience to the Law by faith, but this is a process, so the issue is when this process will be completed. According to Philippians 1:6 there is a good work that God is working in us that will not be completed until the day of Christ Jesus, so it seems to me to be clearly referring to this process. We can overcome temptations, but if we can get to the point in this life where we only do good works by faith like Christ and no longer stumble, then what else is Philippians 1:6 referring to? God is certainly enough to help the believer to overcome their sin and Titus 2:11-14 says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is Lawful and to renounce doing what is Lawless, so that is how God helps us to overcome sin. If we knew that we could never stop sinning in this life, then we should continue to fight against sin because we have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live that that He will complete the good work that He began in us.

Would not God have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can commit sin in the future with the thinking they will still be saved?

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Can you rephrase this question?

For there is a difference between honestly stumbling (with no intention of sinning) vs. thinking that one will just eventually sin at some point as a part of some kind of uncontrollable sin nature.

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It seems that as much as we might desire to only do what is right, there is something preventing us from obtaining that state.

1stcenturylady said:

What would the definition of sanctification be then for the unbeliever? It still doesn't make sense.

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Hi Lady

In the text the word used has this definition #37 from the Strong's Concordance.

1Co 7:14
ForG1063 theG3588 unbelievingG571 husbandG435 is sanctifiedG37 byG1722 theG3588 wife,G1135 andG2532 theG3588 unbelievingG571 wifeG1135 is sanctifiedG37 byG1722 theG3588 husband:G435 elseG1893 (G686) wereG2076 yourG5216 childrenG5043 unclean;G169 butG1161 nowG3568 areG2076 they holy.G40

G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
To make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Remember back in the Old Testament,
1) The Priests, Levite's,
2) The Temple
3) The vessels of service

I gave this list to show.
1) Both people
2) The Temple building
3) The Vessels of service
were also Sanctified.

So both People and inanimate objects can be Sanctified.

Therefore why not the Spouse of the Believer, when the Believer has been Sanctified by Christ Himself, and not just by the blood of bulls and goats, as everything was Sanctified by in the Old Testament, whereas, Christ being a much better Sacrifice for the Believer.

Soyeong said:

Can we be consider to be saved from sin while we continue to sin? Yes and no. The Bible speaks about our salvation in the past, present, and future tense (Ephesians 2:5, Philippians 2:12, Romans 5:9-10), so our salvation is all encompassing in that we have been saved from the penalty of our sins, we are being saved from continuing to sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the Day of the Lord. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves having been saved in the past tense from the penalty of our Lawlessness by Messiah giving himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness, but it also involves being saved in the present tense from continuing to practice sin by being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful. So while there is an aspect of our salvation that has been completed, there is also an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing. Sanctification also has past, present, and future aspects, but it most commonly refers to this training that we are receiving by grace or to holy living, so sanctification is part of what our salvation entails in the present tense.

Click to expand...

I have taken the liberty to change the format somewhat, it was very difficult to attempt answering everything you wrote without breaking it down into understandable sections, I also added the full Bible text's for clarity, where you only used reference numbers.
Hope you don't mind.


You say:
1) Can we consider ourselves to be Saved from sin while we continue to sin?

My answer:
"NO" .....And there is a big difference between being SAVED from sin, and being FREED from sin

You say:
2) The Bible speaks about our Salvation in the past, present, and future tense, with these three verses.

Eph.2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Phil.2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 5:9,10
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

My answer:
How is it possible for the Christian Believer to be both Justified by His blood, Reconciled to God by His Death and at the same time, not be as fully Sanctified, as we are Justified & Reconciled?

When our Justification, Sanctification, Reconciliation are all a part of our Salvation....This being the Grace of God.

Scripture speaks very clearly on the subject of Sanctification and Justification, where both are taking place at the same time.

1Cor. 6:11
And such were some of you:
but ye are (WASHED),
but ye are (SANCTIFIED),
but ye are (JUSTIFIED)
(IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS)
(AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD)

Justified and Sanctified are both clearly Defined below, in describing what the Believer both receives and becomes.

JUSTIFIED:
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
Equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

SANCTIFIED:
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
To make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

You say:
3) So our Salvation is all encompassing in that

1) we have been Saved from the penalty of our sins,
2) we are being Saved from continuing to sin, and
3) we will be Saved from God's wrath on the Day of the Lord.

My answer:
These three statements need to be verified for their truthfulness with Scripture references for each.

You say:
According to Tit 2:11-14 which says.

Titus 2: 11-14
11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1) Our Salvation involves having been Saved in the past tense from the penalty of our Lawlessness by Messiah giving himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness.

2) it also involves being Saved in the present tense from continuing to practice sin by being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful.

3) So while there is an aspect of our Salvation that has been completed, there is also an aspect of our Salvation that is ongoing.

My answer:
Again these statements need to be verified with Scripture references.

When in Titus 2:14 it says
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from (ALL INIQUITY), and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

How can it be that (All Iniquity) becomes only a past tense, and not a Past, Present, and Future tense in it self with regards to Salvation by Grace through Faith.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Where is the addendum to Eph. 2:8 which says, it is only a Past Tense deal, whereby there are a lot of other things which Jesus couldn't accomplish on the Cross, and we as the recipients of Gods Grace and Jesus Sacrifice must pick up the slack?

My Faith is based in God's Grace towards me, and the Sacrifice by Jesus for ALL INIQUITY and not in what I must do after receiving Salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You say:
4) Sanctification also has past, present, and future aspects, but it most commonly refers to this training that we are receiving by grace or to holy living, so Sanctification is part of what our Salvation entails in the present tense.

My answer:
Again there must be Scripture References when making such statements, there isn't anything here which Verifies the statements made.

How are any of these statements to be believed as truth, without verification.

God is in His Heaven, all's right with the world.
Have a good day
Be Blessed

1stcenturylady said:

You are interpreting Sanctification as Holy Living. Do you have a scripture for that? I may have found one:

2 Chronicles 31:18
and to all who were written in the genealogy—their little ones and their wives, their sons and daughters, the whole company of them—for in their faithfulness they sanctified themselves in holiness.

I've always been taught that justification was the cleansing of all our past sin at salvation, and sanctification is a life-time process; therefore present and future. But the scriptures I find in the NT are all past tense and happened at the beginning along with justification. I know there is a growing process, I just don't know if that is what God meant by "sanctification."

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

In the OT, it was some kind of ritual, but I don't know what, outside probably washing with water. The priests had to sanctify themselves before entering the Most Holy Place.

2 Chronicles 5:11
And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions),

2 Chronicles 29:34
But the priests were too few, so that they could not skin all the burnt offerings; therefore their brethren the Levites helped them until the work was ended and until the other priests had sanctified themselves, for the Levites were more diligent in sanctifying themselves than the priests.

2 Chronicles 30:8
Now do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the Lord; and enter His sanctuary, which He has sanctified forever, and serve the Lord your God, that the fierceness of His wrath may turn away from you.

2 Chronicles 30:15
Then they slaughtered the Passover lambs on the fourteenth day of the second month. The priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought the burnt offerings to the house of the Lord.

2 Chronicles 30:17
For there were many in the assembly who had not sanctified themselves; therefore the Levites had charge of the slaughter of the Passover lambs for everyone who was not clean, to sanctify them to the Lord.


What does this mean, besides possibly made holy?

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

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First, you need to separate the Old Covenant from the New Covenant in your verses.

So everything in

Chronicles is Old Covenant
Jeremiah is Old Covenant
1 Corinthians is the New Covenant
Hebrews is the New Covenant, but many times refers to the Old Covenant (what the diff is between Christ and the old Covenant)

Hebrews is specifically talking about if the Hebrews are saved by Christ but then go back to Old Covenant ways, not following Christ in the New Covenant.

The 1 Corinthians verse is talking about before they were saved.

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,a]">[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Soyeong said:

I do not believe that anyone is sent to hell because they had a lustful thought and died before they had a chance to (REPENT). Every single prophet up to including Jesus came with the message to repent from our sins, so the key issue is whether we are someone who practices repentance.



Yes, if you mean that we are able to struggle with a temptation to sin and overcome, no, if you mean that a believer can reach a state where they no longer stumble.



Our goal is to become sinless like Christ, who lived in sinless obedience to the Law by faith, but this is a process, so the issue is when this process will be completed. According to Philippians 1:6 there is a good work that God is working in us that will not be completed until the day of Christ Jesus, so it seems to me to be clearly referring to this process. We can overcome temptations, but if we can get to the point in this life where we only do good works by faith like Christ and no longer stumble, then what else is Philippians 1:6 referring to? God is certainly enough to help the believer to overcome their sin and Titus 2:11-14 says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is Lawful and to renounce doing what is Lawless, so that is how God helps us to overcome sin. If we knew that we could never stop sinning in this life, then we should continue to fight against sin because we have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live that that He will complete the good work that He began in us.

Can you rephrase this question?

It seems that as much as we might desire to only do what is right, there is something preventing us from obtaining that state.

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I have noticed, you have used the word REPENT an few times, and my question is, what is Repentance to you personally?

How do you define it, in order to understand you thinking, do you believe Repentance is.
1) A feeling sorry
2) A going to Confession
3) A turning away from, not repeating

Thanks
Be Blessed

Jason0047 said:

While God does save us in Sanctification and Glorification, if we do not cooperate with God to allow Him to work thru us in Sanctification, then we are not being Sanctified. If we do not believe He is going to save us at any moment in the twinkling of an eye, then how can He save us by such a thing if we do not believe He is coming for us? So no. We have to cooperate with God and what He wants to do within our lives.
...

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Verses Jason.

Jason0047 said:

Furthermore...

Are you saying that the following individuals are saved or that they are of God?

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

George Sodini:
An OSAS believer who was a mass murderer and a suicide victim.
(Please take note that George wrote a letter before he died confessing that he would be saved despite the evils that he did).


...

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You said use scripture and now you are using stories?

This entire thread was setup by you to promote your agenda, not discuss the question.

Soyeong said:

I do not believe that anyone is sent to hell because they had a lustful thought and died before they had a chance to repent. Every single prophet up to including Jesus came with the message to repent from our sins, so the key issue is whether we are someone who practices repentance.

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If someone is not sorry for and admonish their sin, why would they need a Savior to save them from that sin?

Of course someone needs to come to the realization that sin is what separates us from God and to call upon Christ and His finished work on the cross.

Romans 3:
"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

That is certainly unmerited favor, indeed. But Paul doesn't stop there.

31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

How? How do we "establish" the law if there is no law to break? By perfectly keeping it, of course. But isn't that works? Not if it is born from your new nature which is dead to sin/lawlessness!

The eternal moral laws of God to "love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself" are written permanently on our hearts of flesh. But Jesus didn't just give us his laws anew, but a way to keep them. This is where the grace of God changes its common meaning. That is the grace He has given us - part of Himself, for He is full of grace and truth.

So what is the New Testament definition of grace AFTER being born again? To find the answer we must turn to Scripture, and also get in the mindset of the Hebrew men writing it. The Hebrews had writing styles. One of the many styles is called 'doubling.' It is defining a word or phrase by repeating it immediately another way for clarity or emphasis. We see this often in Scripture.

"And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all." Acts 4:33

Jesus has given us His grace - His "power" to be righteous.

What did he tell the disciples to do just before He left earth?

"Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

"Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,"

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

This is why Romans 8:1 says (in it's complete form) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Many translations stop before "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Those translations emphasize the unmerited favor definition of grace. What other definition can you come to if what you read is, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus"?

When taken to the extreme in interpretation, Paul writes against very liberal views of not being under the law, but under their view of grace, such as the Gnostics and the Nicolaitans.

2 Timothy 3: "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Many have white-washed this next important scripture of the apostle John due to modern Gnostic definitions of grace.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother."

Yes, we have free will, which is why Paul said,

I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

24 And those who are Christ’s HAVE crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

JIMINZ said:

I have taken the liberty to change the format somewhat, it was very difficult to attempt answering everything you wrote without breaking it down into understandable sections, I also added the full Bible text's for clarity, where you only used reference numbers.
Hope you don't mind.


You say:
1) Can we consider ourselves to be Saved from sin while we continue to sin?

My answer:
"NO" .....And there is a big difference between being SAVED from sin, and being FREED from sin

Click to expand...

What do you see as the difference between being saved from sin and being freed from sin? In Ephesians 2:5, it says that we have been saved, yet we still continue to sin, so there is a sense that we have saved and and a sense that we are not yet saved.

You say:
2) The Bible speaks about our Salvation in the past, present, and future tense, with these three verses.

Eph.2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Phil.2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 5:9,10
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

My answer:
How is it possible for the Christian Believer to be both Justified by His blood, Reconciled to God by His Death and at the same time, not be as fully Sanctified, as we are Justified & Reconciled?

When our Justification, Sanctification, Reconciliation are all a part of our Salvation....This being the Grace of God.

Scripture speaks very clearly on the subject of Sanctification and Justification, where both are taking place at the same time.

1Cor. 6:11
And such were some of you:
but ye are (WASHED),
but ye are (SANCTIFIED),
but ye are (JUSTIFIED)
(IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS)
(AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD)

Justified and Sanctified are both clearly Defined below, in describing what the Believer both receives and becomes.

JUSTIFIED:
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
Equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

SANCTIFIED:
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
To make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Click to expand...

I agree that justification, sanctification, reconciliation are all a part of our salvation through the grace of God and I agree that justification and sanctification happen at the same time, yet they also have past, present, and future aspects. For example, Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:3 when he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness, yet he was also justified before than in Genesis 12:1-4 and Hebrews 11:8 when he set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance not knowing where he was going, and he was also justified after that in Genesis 22:1-18 and James 2:21-23 when he offered Isaac. According verses like 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:29, our sanctification has happened in the past tense, yet in verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:1-3,

Scripture lists three different instances when Abraham was justified (Genesis 15:6,

You say:
3) So our Salvation is all encompassing in that

1) we have been Saved from the penalty of our sins,
2) we are being Saved from continuing to sin, and
3) we will be Saved from God's wrath on the Day of the Lord.

My answer:
These three statements need to be verified for their truthfulness with Scripture references for each.[/quoted]

I did give Scripture references to verify the truthfulness of those statement. According to Ephesians 2:5, we have been saved, according to Philippians 2:12, we need to work out our salvation, and according to Romans 5:9-10, we will be saved from God's wrath.

You say:
According to Tit 2:11-14 which says.

Titus 2: 11-14
11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1) Our Salvation involves having been Saved in the past tense from the penalty of our Lawlessness by Messiah giving himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness.

2) it also involves being Saved in the present tense from continuing to practice sin by being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful.

3) So while there is an aspect of our Salvation that has been completed, there is also an aspect of our Salvation that is ongoing.

My answer:
Again these statements need to be verified with Scripture references.

When in Titus 2:14 it says
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from (ALL INIQUITY), and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

How can it be that (All Iniquity) becomes only a past tense, and not a Past, Present, and Future tense in it self with regards to Salvation by Grace through Faith.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Where is the addendum to Eph. 2:8 which says, it is only a Past Tense deal, whereby there are a lot of other things which Jesus couldn't accomplish on the Cross, and we as the recipients of Gods Grace and Jesus Sacrifice must pick up the slack?

My Faith is based in God's Grace towards me, and the Sacrifice by Jesus for ALL INIQUITY and not in what I must do after receiving Salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You say:
4) Sanctification also has past, present, and future aspects, but it most commonly refers to this training that we are receiving by grace or to holy living, so Sanctification is part of what our Salvation entails in the present tense.

My answer:
Again there must be Scripture References when making such statements, there isn't anything here which Verifies the statements made.

How are any of these statements to be believed as truth, without verification.

God is in His Heaven, all's right with the world.
Have a good day
Be Blessed

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Soyeong said:

What do you see as the difference between being saved from sin and being freed from sin? In Ephesians 2:5, it says that we have been saved, yet we still continue to sin, so there is a sense that we have saved and and a sense that we are not yet saved.

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It is both. Read #73 above. We may still sin, but the point is we don't have to.

JIMINZ said:

I have taken the liberty to change the format somewhat, it was very difficult to attempt answering everything you wrote without breaking it down into understandable sections, I also added the full Bible text's for clarity, where you only used reference numbers.
Hope you don't mind.


You say:
1) Can we consider ourselves to be Saved from sin while we continue to sin?

My answer:
"NO" .....And there is a big difference between being SAVED from sin, and being FREED from sin

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What do you see as the difference between being saved from sin and being freed from sin? In Ephesians 2:5, it says that we have been saved, yet we still continue to sin, so there is a sense that we have saved and and a sense that we are not yet saved.

You say:
2) The Bible speaks about our Salvation in the past, present, and future tense, with these three verses.

Eph.2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Phil.2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 5:9,10
9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

My answer:
How is it possible for the Christian Believer to be both Justified by His blood, Reconciled to God by His Death and at the same time, not be as fully Sanctified, as we are Justified & Reconciled?

When our Justification, Sanctification, Reconciliation are all a part of our Salvation....This being the Grace of God.

Scripture speaks very clearly on the subject of Sanctification and Justification, where both are taking place at the same time.

1Cor. 6:11
And such were some of you:
but ye are (WASHED),
but ye are (SANCTIFIED),
but ye are (JUSTIFIED)
(IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS)
(AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD)

Justified and Sanctified are both clearly Defined below, in describing what the Believer both receives and becomes.

JUSTIFIED:
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
Equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

SANCTIFIED:
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
To make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

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I agree that justification, sanctification, reconciliation are all a part of our salvation through the grace of God and I agree that justification and sanctification happen at the same time, yet they also have past, present, and future aspects. For example, Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:3 when he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness, yet he was also justified before than in Genesis 12:1-4 and Hebrews 11:8 when he set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance not knowing where he was going, and he was also justified after that in Genesis 22:1-18 and James 2:21-23 when he offered Isaac. According verses like 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:29, our sanctification has happened in the past tense yet in verses like 1 Thessalonians 4:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Hebrews 2:11, and Hebrews 10:4, our sanctification is happening in the present tense.

You say:
3) So our Salvation is all encompassing in that

1) we have been Saved from the penalty of our sins,
2) we are being Saved from continuing to sin, and
3) we will be Saved from God's wrath on the Day of the Lord.

My answer:
These three statements need to be verified for their truthfulness with Scripture references for each.

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It is not clear to me why you are fully quoting the Scripture references that verified what I said while at the same time saying that what I said needs to be verified with Scripture references. According to Ephesians 2:5, we have been saved, according to Philippians 2:12, we need to work out our salvation, and according to Romans 5:9-10, we will be saved from God's wrath.

You say:
According to Tit 2:11-14 which says.

Titus 2: 11-14
11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1) Our Salvation involves having been Saved in the past tense from the penalty of our Lawlessness by Messiah giving himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness.

2) it also involves being Saved in the present tense from continuing to practice sin by being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous and good and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful.

3) So while there is an aspect of our Salvation that has been completed, there is also an aspect of our Salvation that is ongoing.

My answer:
Again these statements need to be verified with Scripture references.

When in Titus 2:14 it says
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from (ALL INIQUITY), and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

How can it be that (All Iniquity) becomes only a past tense, and not a Past, Present, and Future tense in it self with regards to Salvation by Grace through Faith.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Where is the addendum to Eph. 2:8 which says, it is only a Past Tense deal, whereby there are a lot of other things which Jesus couldn't accomplish on the Cross, and we as the recipients of Gods Grace and Jesus Sacrifice must pick up the slack?

My Faith is based in God's Grace towards me, and the Sacrifice by Jesus for ALL INIQUITY and not in what I must do after receiving Salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

Rom. 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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It again is not clear to me why you are quoting the Scripture references and saying that it needs to be verified. According to Ephesians 2:5 and Ephesians 2:8, we have been saved from the penalty of our sins in the past tense. Jesus has already given himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness, so there is an aspect of our salvation that is complete, yet Titus 2:11-14 very clearly describes the salvation that God's grace brings as training that we are receiving in the present tense. This training is not something done to pick up the slack, but rather this training is what our salvation entails as is only available to us through his sacrifice. Our salvation from sin necessarily must involve being made to stop sinning, which we are being trained by grace to do. Indeed, it is important to understand that our salvation is available to everyone who believers, but is just as important to understand that it is impossible believe that Jesus is Lord without submitting to him as Lord, which involves being trained to do what is holy, righteous, and good.

Soyeong said:

What do you see as the difference between being saved from sin and being freed from sin?

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I can intellectualize and say.

1) Upon the instance of our initial Salvation, ie, our Belief in the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus for our sins that are past.

That would I believe, constitute our being Saved from sin.

2) Upon the instance of our Baptism, we die to the flesh, we are at that moment Freed from sin.

Rom.6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I have looked, and there isn't an instance in the entire Bible where it says we are Saved from sin, but it does say we are Freed from sin as I posted above.

Paul said
Rom 6:1-4
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It is therefore very important to know where we stand IN Christ.

Do we consider ourselves to be Saved from sin which we will then continue to revisit from time to time, or, are we in fact Freed form sin by our actually being in Christ.

Rom. 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Jn.5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jason0047 said:

I believe one of the purposes of the Pre-Trib Rapture is that it will be a tool to get certain Christians to repent of their wrong ways.


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I believe the Tribulation is for that reason.