LDS LDS Baptism

Ironhold

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That being said, the church has strict record-keeping protocols in place to ensure that nobody at the congregational level has their hand in the till. Stricter than some businesses, in fact.

Each person's donations have to be entered manually into a computerized system known as "MLS" (it's an abbreviation; I want to say "Member and Leader Services"). Once that's done, a final tally has to be done to ensure that every single cent of the day's donations is accounted for. The two people doing the processing must then digitally sign a document certifying that everything is in order.

At that point, MLS simultaneously sends the digital information off to Salt Lake and prints off physical copies of the day's paperwork, which must be physically signed. These documents, plus the white slips and the tear strip off of the bank deposit bag, must be put together in an envelope and kept in storage for a minimum of two years. This produces both a physical and a digital paper trail for every last donation.

Once that's all done, both parties must go together to deposit the deposit bag with the offerings at the designated drop-off point, usually the night deposit box of whatever bank the local congregation has its account set up at.

A similarly strict policy is in place for people seeking reimbursement for church-related expenses. Paperwork must be filled out, receipts must be included, the information must be input into MLS, and the check MLS spits out must be signed by two authorized parties whose signatures are on record. The checks are formatted so that each check prints with *two* stubs, one of which must be archived along with the MLS print-out, the paperwork, and the receipts. God help you if the check doesn't print properly, as re-setting MLS to print a new check is a task on par with changing a fan belt.

Then there's the audit process...

No seriously, you get audited twice a year to make sure that all of your paperwork is in order. The auditor will look at everything from the previous six months, and if the situation warrants it can go back further. I remember one audit where the auditor checked an envelope put together on a day where someone other than me was the #2 person. The other person (IIRC, a new clerk who was being trained by a member of the clergy) used a paperclip to hold some important documents together instead of a staple; one of the pages from that document had gotten separated as a result, and so we ended up practically having to tear apart that filing cabinet to find it. (We did, after about ten minutes.)

Yeah.
 
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MJFlores

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I used to be a congregation finance clerk, so I can toss a few things in here as well.

If you'll note, the slip in question is a piece of NCR paper. How it works is that you fill it out, and then place the white-colored slip inside an envelope with your offering, at which point the envelope is sealed. You keep the yellow paper for yourself, and then give the envelope to a member of the clergy. This way, your offering is kept completely private; the only two mortals aside from you who know what you gave that day will be the two individuals responsible for handling the offerings at the end of the day, which will be one member of the clergy and either a second member or an authorized clerk. Yes, protocol requires two people to work together on the offerings, no more and no less.

(that being said, the slip you have is outdated; a few of the categories have since been de-listed in favor of a much larger "other" box)

Additionally, there *are* circumstances under which a person can be declared "exempt". This is handled by the bishop himself, and from what I understand involves a situation in which a person's finances are just that fouled up.

10% is based on Gross Income (before taxes and deductions) or is it based on Net Income (after taxes and deductions)?

For us, what ever we decided and given willingly - that is our offering. Not out of compulsion or necessity.

I also work as a finance / money counter every Sunday after worship services. What ever is counted, that is what is offered. We don't have tithings. Because God is pleased with a cheerful giver.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7
 
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fatboys

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10% is based on Gross Income (before taxes and deductions) or is it based on Net Income (after taxes and deductions)?

For us, what ever we decided and given willingly - that is our offering. Not out of compulsion or necessity.

I also work as a finance / money counter every Sunday after worship services. What ever is counted, that is what is offered. We don't have tithings. Because God is pleased with a cheerful giver.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7
I came from a tight money family where we were always poor farmers and my parents didn't pay tithing. So I never was taught that it was anything but a burden. I learned the blessings of tithing on my mission when we were teaching the law to a older couple. They couldn't understand why they had to buy their way into heaven. We taught them that it is all about obedience. We think that we earn our money so we should be able to give or take when or what we want. That is not the way God teaches us. The very first thing we need to learn is the law of sacrifice. God gives us everything including the money we make. You may work hard for your money but without God you would have nothing. The only thing he asks is we pay ten percent of our gross. This older couple wanted an example from each of us including a new baptized member. The new member said that he did not have many experiences with tithing yet but that since he started to pay tithing they were somehow better off financially. He got a promotion he wasn't expecting etc. my companion had paid it all his life and had several wonderful experiences. When it as my turn I had none. Now I could have lied and made up a good one but I didn't. I told them I hadn't been active in the church most of my life and had not paid it. The husband got angry and kicked us out. I decided that even though missionaries were not required to pay tithing since the money they got was already tithed because most of it was from their savings I would pay tithing. I did and when I had no money for food or Books of Mormon I would find money in my scriptures or in my coat pocket almost the exact amount I needed. At one time. A accused my companion. He took me by my shoulders and said he had nothing to do with it and said look up and thank Heavenly Father which I did and have. From that point on I have paid tithing with a happy heart and have been blessed beyond my means to comprehend. What ever we sow so shall we reap. If money is that important to you that you cannot feel good about paying God back what he has given you then that is ok. Just know that God has blessings he wants to give to those obey him. My parents didn't receive any blessings they could have received. They were still members of the lds faith. No one forces me or anyone else to pay tithing.
 
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MJFlores

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I came from a tight money family where we were always poor farmers and my parents didn't pay tithing. So I never was taught that it was anything but a burden. I learned the blessings of tithing on my mission when we were teaching the law to a older couple. They couldn't understand why they had to buy their way into heaven. We taught them that it is all about obedience. We think that we earn our money so we should be able to give or take when or what we want. That is not the way God teaches us. The very first thing we need to learn is the law of sacrifice. God gives us everything including the money we make. You may work hard for your money but without God you would have nothing. The only thing he asks is we pay ten percent of our gross. This older couple wanted an example from each of us including a new baptized member. The new member said that he did not have many experiences with tithing yet but that since he started to pay tithing they were somehow better off financially. He got a promotion he wasn't expecting etc. my companion had paid it all his life and had several wonderful experiences. When it as my turn I had none. Now I could have lied and made up a good one but I didn't. I told them I hadn't been active in the church most of my life and had not paid it. The husband got angry and kicked us out. I decided that even though missionaries were not required to pay tithing since the money they got was already tithed because most of it was from their savings I would pay tithing. I did and when I had no money for food or Books of Mormon I would find money in my scriptures or in my coat pocket almost the exact amount I needed. At one time. A accused my companion. He took me by my shoulders and said he had nothing to do with it and said look up and thank Heavenly Father which I did and have. From that point on I have paid tithing with a happy heart and have been blessed beyond my means to comprehend. What ever we sow so shall we reap. If money is that important to you that you cannot feel good about paying God back what he has given you then that is ok. Just know that God has blessings he wants to give to those obey him. My parents didn't receive any blessings they could have received. They were still members of the lds faith. No one forces me or anyone else to pay tithing.

Tithing or not, the main agenda of it all is about:

Is the LDS true? There are many religions in the world, my Mormon friend. Some have set the figure to 4,200 types of religions. In Christianity, there are 34,000 denominations/sects. I'm sure 99.9% of them are not true. I know God sent his Son to establish his Church. Matt 16:18 - and that is the true religion.

When one pays for a fake item, then he has been had - swindled or deceived. Each one of us must determine if what he is paying for is light or darkness. Didn't the Lord Jesus told about these things?

Matthew 6:20-23 New International Version (NIV)

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Now, since this thread is about Baptism LDS - is it the light or the darkness baptizing the dead?
baptismdead.jpg


He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” Mark 12:27

Always remember: But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
 
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Jane_Doe

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Tithing or not, the main agenda of it all is about:

Is the LDS true? There are many religions in the world, my Mormon friend. Some have set the figure to 4,200 types of religions. In Christianity, there are 34,000 denominations/sects. I'm sure 99.9% of them are not true. I know God sent his Son to establish his Church. Matt 16:18 - and that is the true religion.

When one pays for a fake item, then he has been had - swindled or deceived. Each one of us must determine if what he is paying for is light or darkness. Didn't the Lord Jesus told about these things?

Matthew 6:20-23 New International Version (NIV)

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Now, since this thread is about Baptism LDS - is it the light or the darkness baptizing the dead?
View attachment 194768

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” Mark 12:27

Always remember: But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
MJFlores, again I ask: *how* do you know that you are not the one being swindled and deceived?
 
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MJFlores

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HOW do you know that? Please actually answer the question.

Since you guys are celebrating "Easter" this is an info from en.wikibooks (just excerpt)

The Mystery Religion
Nimrod was killed because of his violence and iniquity against the true and living God and his body was cut in pieces and sent to various parts of his kingdom. His wife/mother told the people of Babylon that Nimrod had ascended to the sun and was now to be called "Baal", the sun god. Semiramis was creating a mystery religion, and with the help of Satan, she set herself up as a goddess. Semiramis claimed that she was immaculately conceived. She taught that the moon was a goddess that went through a 28 day cycle and ovulated when full and that she had come down from the moon in a giant moon egg that fell into the Euphrates River at sunrise at the time of the first full moon after the spring equinox, on a Sunday. Semiramis became known as "Ishtar" which is pronounced "Easter" referred to as Ashtoreth in scripture, and her moon egg became known as "Ishtar's" egg." One of her titles was the Queen of Heaven, and two of her fertility symbols were the rabbit and the egg. She soon became pregnant and claimed that it was the rays of the sun-god Baal (the ascended Nimrod) that caused her to conceive.

The son that she brought forth was named Tammuz. Tammuz was believed to be the son of the sun-god, Baal. Tammuz, like his supposed father, became a hunter. The day came when Tammuz was killed by a wild pig. Queen Ishtar told the people that Tammuz was now ascended to his father, Baal, and that the two of them would be with the worshipers in the sacred candle or lamp flame as Father, Son and Spirit.

Ishtar, who was now worshiped as the "Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven", continued to build her mystery religion. The queen told the worshipers that when Tammuz was killed by the wild pig, some of his blood fell on the stump of an evergreen tree, and the stump grew into a full new tree overnight. This made the evergreen tree sacred by the blood of Tammuz.

She also proclaimed a forty day period of time of sorrow for each year prior to the anniversary of the death of Tammuz. During this time, no meat was to be eaten - this is what became known as Lent" in Roman Catholic tradition. Worshipers were to meditate upon the sacred mysteries of Baal and Tammuz, and to make the sign of the "Tau" (a cross) in front of their hearts as they worshiped. They also ate sacred cakes with the marking of a "T" or a cross, on the top. Every year, on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox, a celebration was made. It was Ishtar's Sunday and was celebrated with rabbits and eggs. Ishtar also proclaimed that because Tammuz was killed by a pig, that a pig must be eaten on that Sunday.

Ishtar, (Semiramis, widow of Nimrod, mother of Tammuz) came to be represented as the bare breasted pagan fertility goddess of the east. The original pagan festival of "Easter" was a sex orgy that celebrated the return of life via the fertility of Ishtar's conception of Tammuz. Worshipers of the Babylonian religion celebrated the conception of Tammuz on the first Sunday after the Full Moon that followed the Spring Equinox. They celebrated it by baking cakes to Ishtar, getting drunk, engaging in sex orgies and prostitution in the temple of Ishtar. Women were required to celebrate the conception of Tammuz by lying down in the temple and having sex with whoever entered. The man was required to leave her money. Babies were sacrificed in the honor of these pagan gods and their blood was consumed by the worshipers. The priest of Easter would sacrifice infants (human babies) and take the eggs of Easter/Ishtar, as symbols of fertility, and die them in the blood of the sacrificed infants (human babies). The Easter eggs would hatch on December 25th (nine months later), the same day her son Tammuz the reincarnate sun-god would be born.

This is where the practice of coloring "easter eggs" came from. Many babies would be born around Dec 25 from the sex orgies that began on the feast of Ishtar in the Spring and many of these babies would be sacrificed the following Easter/Ishtar feast .

It was also common for pagans to bake cakes to offer to her (the Queen of heaven) on the Friday before the Easter festival. This is where we gained the custom of 'hot cross buns', with the “cross” symbol indicating the female (the Babylonian symbol for the “female” was, and is, a circle with a crux/cross beneath). The cross also indicated the Equinox, when the Earth’s orbit “crossed” the celestial equator.

Jeremiah spoke against this practice and pronounced God's judgment against them for these practices (Jeremiah 7:17-19; 44:19-29). Ezekiel also speaks against the celebration of the rites of Ishtar which were taking place in the temple and the weeping for Tammuz (Ezek. 8:14) refers to the mourning process of the death/resurrection symbolism of Easter, Ishtar weeping for the death of her son Tammuz which the women were obliged to emulate.

The fertility rites were extended to agricultural processes and to ensure a prosperous growing season, Pagans rolled eggs decorated with the bright colors of Spring in their fields, hoping to imbue fertility. These eggs were then hidden from “evil spirits” in rabbits’ nests, another symbol of fertility.

The Easter or Ishtar symbolism of the Sunday resurrection of the spring fertility cult (Easter, the Anglo-Saxon form of Ishtar), is a pagan system of worship that first penetrated Christianity in the second century. The symbolism stems from the death of Tammuz (or Dumuzi) on Friday and his resurrection on Sunday. This mirrors the grain and new shoot symbolism of the corn harvest which occurred at this time of the year. The 40 days of Lent were picked as one day for each year of his life since he died at age 40. The rest of the traditions of Easter were "Christianized" into the story of the death and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah.

Hebrew Roots/Neglected Commandments/Idolatry/Easter - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

My Lord Jesus had nothing to do with the Easter bunny or the Easter egg. Apparently yours do. So, I say my Jesus is not your Jesus.

 
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Super14LDS

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Now, since this thread is about Baptism LDS - is it the light or the darkness baptizing the dead?

View attachment 194768

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” Mark 12:27

Always remember: But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Without baptism, what do you suppose becomes of the unsaved that died without ever having any chance to hear and accept the gospel. Does your version of God damn them to Hell?
 
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MJFlores

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Without baptism, what do you suppose becomes of the unsaved that died without ever having any chance to hear and accept the gospel. Does your version of God damn them to Hell?

As in Baptism of the Dead really work? What does the bible say about this?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

upload_2017-4-21_17-47-1.jpeg

Even if you baptize the actual corpse - there will be no effect.

Because what? they have no further reward

My Lord Jesus mentioned this:

Mark 12:27 New International Version (NIV)

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

That is why my Lord Jesus is not your Jesus.
 
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Super14LDS

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As in Baptism of the Dead really work? What does the bible say about this?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

View attachment 194877

Even if you baptize the actual corpse - there will be no effect.

Because what? they have no further reward

My Lord Jesus mentioned this:

Mark 12:27 New International Version (NIV)

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

That is why my Lord Jesus is not your Jesus.

The dead don't live under the Sun = your point is moot. :)

You failed to answer the question. :-(
 
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MJFlores

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The dead don't live under the Sun = your point is moot. :)

You failed to answer the question. :-(

What is sad is the reality that no one could ever do something for the dead. I have dead relatives too, my mother who really cared for her children. I have loving grandparents, I wish I could do something for them but the thing is they have no further reward, as Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says.

Even the Chinese would burn paper money, paper cars, light candles, incense and even offer food for their dead love ones - so they can have a better afterlife.
images


The pharaohs of Ancient Egypt built pyramids in the belief that these structures would be their stairway to heaven.
images


In the Philippines, every November 1 - people flock to the cemeteries even staying overnight, light candles and offer flowers for their dead love ones. Are their dead happy? Do they enjoy the aroma of the candles and the scent of the flowers?
images


Are the dead happy with all of these?
the dead know nothing
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says that.


What is the purpose of Baptizing the Dead?

Answer: In the practice of the LDS Church, a living person, acting as proxy, is baptized by immersion on behalf of a deceased person of the same sex. ... Baptism for the dead is an ordinance of the church and is based on the belief that baptism is required for entry into the Kingdom of God.


Based on the explanations and the video presentation of a Mormon - baptism for the dead is "rewarding" a dead person who isn't baptize to be baptize so for the deceased to allegedly be granted entry into the Kingdom of God.

upload_2017-4-21_19-54-23.jpeg


As a former Catholic, this parallels the doctrine of Indulgence which in Catholic history was (in the Roman Catholic Church) a grant by the Pope of remission of the temporal punishment in purgatory still due for sins after absolution. The unrestricted sale of indulgences by pardoners was a widespread abuse during the later Middle Ages.

upload_2017-4-21_19-52-56.jpeg


Gold sarcophagus, paper money burnt, food for the dead, flowers and candles for the dead, pyramids, baptism for the dead or indulgences - are all worthless efforts for the dead to have a better afterlife. They are useless.

but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.


images

and even their name is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
 
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Jane_Doe

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What is sad is the reality that no one could ever do something for the dead. I have dead relatives too, my mother who really cared for her children. I have loving grandparents, I wish I could do something for them but the thing is they have no further reward, as Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says.

Even the Chinese would burn paper money, paper cars, light candles, incense and even offer food for their dead love ones - so they can have a better afterlife.
images


The pharaohs of Ancient Egypt built pyramids in the belief that these structures would be their stairway to heaven.
images


In the Philippines, every November 1 - people flock to the cemeteries even staying overnight, light candles and offer flowers for their dead love ones. Are their dead happy? Do they enjoy the aroma of the candles and the scent of the flowers?
images


Are the dead happy with all of these?
the dead know nothing
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says that.


What is the purpose of Baptizing the Dead?

Answer: In the practice of the LDS Church, a living person, acting as proxy, is baptized by immersion on behalf of a deceased person of the same sex. ... Baptism for the dead is an ordinance of the church and is based on the belief that baptism is required for entry into the Kingdom of God.


Based on the explanations and the video presentation of a Mormon - baptism for the dead is "rewarding" a dead person who isn't baptize to be baptize so for the deceased to allegedly be granted entry into the Kingdom of God.

View attachment 194882

As a former Catholic, this parallels the doctrine of Indulgence which in Catholic history was (in the Roman Catholic Church) a grant by the Pope of remission of the temporal punishment in purgatory still due for sins after absolution. The unrestricted sale of indulgences by pardoners was a widespread abuse during the later Middle Ages.

View attachment 194881

Gold sarcophagus, paper money burnt, food for the dead, flowers and candles for the dead, pyramids, baptism for the dead or indulgences - are all worthless efforts for the dead to have a better afterlife. They are useless.

but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

images

and even their name is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
We already answered all of these questions. Why repeat them?
 
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MJFlores

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We already answered all of these questions. Why repeat them?

Just answered @Super14LDS

An interesting activity aside from baptism of the dead is the day of the dead in Mexico.

Day of the Dead - Wikipedia

Day of the Dead (Spanish: Día de Muertos) is a Mexican holiday celebrated throughout Mexico, in particular the Central and South regions, and by people of Mexican ancestry living in other places, especially the United States. It is acknowledged internationally in many other cultures. The multi-day holiday focuses on gatherings of family and friends to pray for and remember friends and family members who have died, and help support their spiritual journey. In 2008, the tradition was inscribed in the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO.

The thing is - does it work? To help support their spiritual journey.?

 
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Jane_Doe

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Just answered @Super14LDS

An interesting activity aside from baptism of the dead is the day of the dead in Mexico.

Day of the Dead - Wikipedia

Day of the Dead (Spanish: Día de Muertos) is a Mexican holiday celebrated throughout Mexico, in particular the Central and South regions, and by people of Mexican ancestry living in other places, especially the United States. It is acknowledged internationally in many other cultures. The multi-day holiday focuses on gatherings of family and friends to pray for and remember friends and family members who have died, and help support their spiritual journey. In 2008, the tradition was inscribed in the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO.

The thing is - does it work? To help support their spiritual journey.?

*bangs head on table* The Mexican Day of the Dead has nothing to do with LDS beliefs.
 
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MJFlores

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*bangs head on table* The Mexican Day of the Dead has nothing to do with LDS beliefs.

I said, these are activities which people do for the dead:
Mexico
images

China
upload_2017-4-21_21-35-25.jpeg

Philippines
images

LDS
images


All things that people do for the dead - are worthless, useless - when one is dead - its finito, terminado, tapos ka na or you're done for.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 New International Version (NIV)

Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

The dead has no hope, conversely speaking.

LDS Baptism gives hope for the dead?
I dedicate this song for that:
 
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Super14LDS

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What is sad is the reality that no one could ever do something for the dead. I have dead relatives too, my mother who really cared for her children. I have loving grandparents, I wish I could do something for them but the thing is they have no further reward, as Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says.

Even the Chinese would burn paper money, paper cars, light candles, incense and even offer food for their dead love ones - so they can have a better afterlife.
images


The pharaohs of Ancient Egypt built pyramids in the belief that these structures would be their stairway to heaven.
images


In the Philippines, every November 1 - people flock to the cemeteries even staying overnight, light candles and offer flowers for their dead love ones. Are their dead happy? Do they enjoy the aroma of the candles and the scent of the flowers?
images


Are the dead happy with all of these?
the dead know nothing
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says that.


What is the purpose of Baptizing the Dead?

Answer: In the practice of the LDS Church, a living person, acting as proxy, is baptized by immersion on behalf of a deceased person of the same sex. ... Baptism for the dead is an ordinance of the church and is based on the belief that baptism is required for entry into the Kingdom of God.


Based on the explanations and the video presentation of a Mormon - baptism for the dead is "rewarding" a dead person who isn't baptize to be baptize so for the deceased to allegedly be granted entry into the Kingdom of God.

View attachment 194882

As a former Catholic, this parallels the doctrine of Indulgence which in Catholic history was (in the Roman Catholic Church) a grant by the Pope of remission of the temporal punishment in purgatory still due for sins after absolution. The unrestricted sale of indulgences by pardoners was a widespread abuse during the later Middle Ages.

View attachment 194881

Gold sarcophagus, paper money burnt, food for the dead, flowers and candles for the dead, pyramids, baptism for the dead or indulgences - are all worthless efforts for the dead to have a better afterlife. They are useless.

but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

images

and even their name is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6


Hopefully the love of your departed family will motivate your to seriously study the subject that you may come to know the truth. Here are a couple of excerpts from an extensive article based on a large body of scriptures.


... Physical death is the separation of one's body and spirit:


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26)

When a person's spirit and body separate; one's thoughts depart with the spirit; leaving behind a body in which all thoughts perish:


"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)

Note that the "he" in Psalms 146:4 must be referring to the body, because it is the body that "returneth" to the earth, not the spirit (cp. Genesis 3:19 & Ecclesiastes 12:7). Likewise, since it is the spirit that "knoweth the things of a man"; all of one's knowledge also perishes within the body after the spirit leaves. Consequently, the dead (i.e. corpses) know nothing and will eventually go to the grave:


"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 emphasis added)

Referring to these verses, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, " . . . when death intervenes, the body is laid away in the grave peacefully and that it knows nothing as to the affairs of a busy world." (Answers To Gospel Questions, Vol. 4, p.183)

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

In verse 10, the word "grave" is translated from the Hebrew word sheol, which has several meanings depending on the context in which it is used. It can be translated as "hades", "grave", "hell", "pit", or "world of the dead." Thus, the term can refer to the spirit world or part of it. But the context of Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 is describing a different place; a place where there is "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom"; a place where "the dead know not any thing." What could be more descriptive of the "grave" or tomb in which a corpse is laid to rest? Moreover, since a corpse has no mental or emotional faculties, it cannot do anything, much less praise the LORD:

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17, cp. 6:5)

Many other verses can also be understood in terms of a corpse. Examples: a corpse is buried (Genesis 23:15); a corpse returns to dust (Psalms 104:29); a corpse is laid in the grave (Psalms 49:14); a corpse is silent (Psalms 31:17); a corpse cannot perceive (Job 14:21); a corpse cannot hope (Isaiah 38:18); and a corpse "sleeps" (Job 14: 10, 12). ...

Question: If you believe that Moses died, and believe that the spirit does not live on after death, then what was going on when Moses appeared to Christ in Matthew 17? ... Mormon Answers: Questions about the Dead--Do They Live as Spirit Beings or Are They just Unconscious?
 
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Super14LDS

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What is sad is the reality that no one could ever do something for the dead. I have dead relatives too, my mother who really cared for her children. I have loving grandparents, I wish I could do something for them but the thing is they have no further reward, as Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says.

Even the Chinese would burn paper money, paper cars, light candles, incense and even offer food for their dead love ones - so they can have a better afterlife.
images


The pharaohs of Ancient Egypt built pyramids in the belief that these structures would be their stairway to heaven.
images


In the Philippines, every November 1 - people flock to the cemeteries even staying overnight, light candles and offer flowers for their dead love ones. Are their dead happy? Do they enjoy the aroma of the candles and the scent of the flowers?
images


Are the dead happy with all of these?
the dead know nothing
Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 says that.


What is the purpose of Baptizing the Dead?

Answer: In the practice of the LDS Church, a living person, acting as proxy, is baptized by immersion on behalf of a deceased person of the same sex. ... Baptism for the dead is an ordinance of the church and is based on the belief that baptism is required for entry into the Kingdom of God.


Based on the explanations and the video presentation of a Mormon - baptism for the dead is "rewarding" a dead person who isn't baptize to be baptize so for the deceased to allegedly be granted entry into the Kingdom of God.

View attachment 194882

As a former Catholic, this parallels the doctrine of Indulgence which in Catholic history was (in the Roman Catholic Church) a grant by the Pope of remission of the temporal punishment in purgatory still due for sins after absolution. The unrestricted sale of indulgences by pardoners was a widespread abuse during the later Middle Ages.

View attachment 194881

Gold sarcophagus, paper money burnt, food for the dead, flowers and candles for the dead, pyramids, baptism for the dead or indulgences - are all worthless efforts for the dead to have a better afterlife. They are useless.

but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

images

and even their name is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6


Hopefully the love of your departed family will motivate you to seriously study the subject that you may come to know the truth. Here are a couple of excerpts from an extensive article based on a large body of scriptures.


... Physical death is the separation of one's body and spirit:


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26)

When a person's spirit and body separate; one's thoughts depart with the spirit; leaving behind a body in which all thoughts perish:


"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)

Note that the "he" in Psalms 146:4 must be referring to the body, because it is the body that "returneth" to the earth, not the spirit (cp. Genesis 3:19 & Ecclesiastes 12:7). Likewise, since it is the spirit that "knoweth the things of a man"; all of one's knowledge also perishes within the body after the spirit leaves. Consequently, the dead (i.e. corpses) know nothing and will eventually go to the grave:


"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 emphasis added)

Referring to these verses, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, " . . . when death intervenes, the body is laid away in the grave peacefully and that it knows nothing as to the affairs of a busy world." (Answers To Gospel Questions, Vol. 4, p.183)

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

In verse 10, the word "grave" is translated from the Hebrew word sheol, which has several meanings depending on the context in which it is used. It can be translated as "hades", "grave", "hell", "pit", or "world of the dead." Thus, the term can refer to the spirit world or part of it. But the context of Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 is describing a different place; a place where there is "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom"; a place where "the dead know not any thing." What could be more descriptive of the "grave" or tomb in which a corpse is laid to rest? Moreover, since a corpse has no mental or emotional faculties, it cannot do anything, much less praise the LORD:


"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17, cp. 6:5)

Many other verses can also be understood in terms of a corpse. Examples: a corpse is buried (Genesis 23:15); a corpse returns to dust (Psalms 104:29); a corpse is laid in the grave (Psalms 49:14); a corpse is silent (Psalms 31:17); a corpse cannot perceive (Job 14:21); a corpse cannot hope (Isaiah 38:18); and a corpse "sleeps" (Job 14: 10, 12). ...


Question: If you believe that Moses died, and believe that the spirit does not live on after death, then what was going on when Moses appeared to Christ in Matthew 17? ... Mormon Answers: Questions about the Dead--Do They Live as Spirit Beings or Are They just Unconscious?
 
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MJFlores

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Hopefully the love of your departed family will motivate your to seriously study the subject that you may come to know the truth. Here are a couple of excerpts from an extensive article based on a large body of scriptures.


... Physical death is the separation of one's body and spirit:


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26)

When a person's spirit and body separate; one's thoughts depart with the spirit; leaving behind a body in which all thoughts perish:


"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)

Note that the "he" in Psalms 146:4 must be referring to the body, because it is the body that "returneth" to the earth, not the spirit (cp. Genesis 3:19 & Ecclesiastes 12:7). Likewise, since it is the spirit that "knoweth the things of a man"; all of one's knowledge also perishes within the body after the spirit leaves. Consequently, the dead (i.e. corpses) know nothing and will eventually go to the grave:


"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 emphasis added)

Referring to these verses, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, " . . . when death intervenes, the body is laid away in the grave peacefully and that it knows nothing as to the affairs of a busy world." (Answers To Gospel Questions, Vol. 4, p.183)

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

In verse 10, the word "grave" is translated from the Hebrew word sheol, which has several meanings depending on the context in which it is used. It can be translated as "hades", "grave", "hell", "pit", or "world of the dead." Thus, the term can refer to the spirit world or part of it. But the context of Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 is describing a different place; a place where there is "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom"; a place where "the dead know not any thing." What could be more descriptive of the "grave" or tomb in which a corpse is laid to rest? Moreover, since a corpse has no mental or emotional faculties, it cannot do anything, much less praise the LORD:

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17, cp. 6:5)

Many other verses can also be understood in terms of a corpse. Examples: a corpse is buried (Genesis 23:15); a corpse returns to dust (Psalms 104:29); a corpse is laid in the grave (Psalms 49:14); a corpse is silent (Psalms 31:17); a corpse cannot perceive (Job 14:21); a corpse cannot hope (Isaiah 38:18); and a corpse "sleeps" (Job 14: 10, 12). ...

Question: If you believe that Moses died, and believe that the spirit does not live on after death, then what was going on when Moses appeared to Christ in Matthew 17? ... Mormon Answers: Questions about the Dead--Do They Live as Spirit Beings or Are They just Unconscious?

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

That is right, that is what I believe. A human being is composed of the following, and this is based on the bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is right - when a person dies - his thoughts perishes.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26) < you quoted it right

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4) < you quoted it right

The body - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (it will rot to the ground)

The spirit - shall return unto God who gave it."

Now how did God gave "the spirit" to man?

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
upload_2017-4-21_23-27-0.jpeg

But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding. Job 32:8
upload_2017-4-21_23-25-42.jpeg

The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

And the last of the three parts of a human being is the SOUL - where does it go after we die?

My soul clings to the dust; Revive me according to Your word. Psalm 119:25

Like the body which rots, the soul clings to the dust while the breath of the Almighty (the spirit of God) which gives life - returns to God who gave it. God gave the spirit to Adam "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."
images


Now how about Jesus transfiguration?
upload_2017-4-21_23-40-41.png

Matthew 17:1-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

vision.JPG


So it was a vision (defined above - select one which is appropriate). Is Moses dead? Moses died. He was not allowed to go to the promise land. Even the archangel and the devil were arguing about Moses' body:

Jude 1:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Has Moses reached heaven?
Not yet.
So what was Matthew 17?
My Lord Jesus said it was a vision.

The old KJV says this:

Matthew 17:9 King James Version (KJV)

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
 

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