Is forgiveness fair to the victim

HisPrincess710 · Apr 20, 2017

I'm just gonna go on record and say that I'm tired of having to explain that forgiveness is not a free pass to do whatever whenever.

For one thing, it really infuriates me to know that sexual violence is almost as prevalent in the church as it is in secular society. Not that I've ever been abused in any way, but Jesus was never afraid to get his hands dirty, and neither should we be. Violence in any way impacts everyone, not just the two people involved. I'd like to be married, but if these behaviors in men were presented as my only options, I'd rather stay single.

We need to be asking the tough questions society in general is afraid to ask. We need to make sure we follow our own rules and ethics before we criticize someone else's. We need to demand change and advocacy for those who can't defend themselves. If we could do it 500 years ago and spark the Protestant Reformation, we can certainly do it now.

Christians in America may feel like they're being persecuted, and they may feel being proud of their country is wrong. But they have no idea how good they've got it. I'm not saying my country is perfect, but we are probably the first country in the history of the world to model servant leadership and wealth creation, in stark contrast to dictator kings and conquering the lands of the enemy through war for resources. Christians living in the Middle-East have to thank God for every day they live. If their faith is known, or if they possess a bible, they could face torture, watching their families be tortured, rape (if you're a woman), and of course silencing you through violent murder.

Dave-W · Apr 20, 2017

HisPrincess710 said:
Where in the bible does it say that?

Say what? That Caiaphas was the main instigator?

Matthew 26:57
John 18

Paidiske · Apr 20, 2017

I believe it was both groups cooperating. Look at John 18:3; those who come to arrest Jesus include soldiers, police from the chief priests (Sadducees) and the Pharisees.

Zoii · Apr 20, 2017

HisPrincess710 said:
I'm just gonna go on record and say that I'm tired of having to explain that forgiveness is not a free pass to do whatever whenever.

For one thing, it really infuriates me to know that sexual violence is almost as prevalent in the church as it is in secular society. Not that I've ever been abused in any way, but Jesus was never afraid to get his hands dirty, and neither should we be. Violence in any way impacts everyone, not just the two people involved. I'd like to be married, but if these behaviors in men were presented as my only options, I'd rather stay single.

We need to be asking the tough questions society in general is afraid to ask. We need to make sure we follow our own rules and ethics before we criticize someone else's. We need to demand change and advocacy for those who can't defend themselves. If we could do it 500 years ago and spark the Protestant Reformation, we can certainly do it now.

Christians in America may feel like they're being persecuted, and they may feel being proud of their country is wrong. But they have no idea how good they've got it. I'm not saying my country is perfect, but we are probably the first country in the history of the world to model servant leadership and wealth creation, in stark contrast to dictator kings and conquering the lands of the enemy through war for resources. Christians living in the Middle-East have to thank God for every day they live. If their faith is known, or if they possess a bible, they could face torture, watching their families be tortured, rape (if you're a woman), and of course silencing you through violent murder.

Reading your reply it brought to mind human trafficking and how could the criminals ever be forgiven especially when they actually don't seek forgiveness

Ygrene Imref · Apr 20, 2017

The very simple answer is that if everyone who was wrong demanded God was fair, and that He "takes care" of those who wrong us....

We would all go to hell.

We have all wronged someone - in ways we may not even know could be so harmful.

I completely understand the OP, and I don't necessarily like it. But I have come to realize the above point, and so it is comforting to know God isn't fair, but Just.

PKFox · Apr 26, 2017

Zoii said:
There is something to be said for the Buddhist concept of Karma. It may not be Christian but I pray its true. I find it really hard to reconcile that someone can commit a heinous crime, leave the victim to suffer for years into their life if not their whole life…along with the victims family and close friends. Yet all the perpetrator has to do is say Im sorry God.

Great!!! that evil person is forgiven for all they have done. So I have some questions. If you’re forgiven does that mean you don’t need to feel guilty? If you’re forgiven does that alleviate any obligations to your victim? And what if its true…while the perpetrator is forgiven the victim isn’t alleviated of their suffering. For so many it’s a life sentence. Where is the fairness in that?

Buddhists will say that if your evil then evil will befall you and if you’re a good person then good will come your way. I can see practical elements to this quite easily and it fits with me.

I think it's really a matter of the heart. If you do something wrong, God will still forgive you, but you will still have to live with your decisions. Regretting those decisions and wanting to make up for them can lead you to helping the victim of your wrongdoings. God knows when we are truly asking for forgiveness because it means we recognize our wrongdoings and don't want to make them again. God is a just God, so he will forgive us when we ask for it sincerely.

Now, bad things happen to everyone, and good things happen to everyone. It's part of living on Earth. Let God be the judge of what happens afterwards, because it will be much closer to what the Buddhists say than how things work in this life.

Zoii · Apr 26, 2017

PKFox said:
I think it's really a matter of the heart. If you do something wrong, God will still forgive you, but you will still have to live with your decisions. Regretting those decisions and wanting to make up for them can lead you to helping the victim of your wrongdoings. God knows when we are truly asking for forgiveness because it means we recognize our wrongdoings and don't want to make them again. God is a just God, so he will forgive us when we ask for it sincerely.

Now, bad things happen to everyone, and good things happen to everyone. It's part of living on Earth. Let God be the judge of what happens afterwards, because it will be much closer to what the Buddhists say than how things work in this life.

I have no issue with God being the judge. I have more an issue of expecting the victim to bear the pain that comes with being a victim, and then being expected to forgive her perpetrator even though he/she may not even ask for forgiveness. That to me is just a recipe for even further angst for the victim, though I recognise most here argue its necessary and that it may even be therapeutic.

PKFox · Apr 26, 2017

Zoii said:
I have no issue with God being the judge. I have more an issue of expecting the victim to bear the pain that comes with being a victim, and then being expected to forgive her perpetrator even though he/she may not even ask for forgiveness. That to me is just a recipe for even further angst for the victim, though I recognise most here argue its necessary and that it may even be therapeutic.

People always have to live with the decisions of others, whether they realize it or not. While having to deal with such pain as the victim, they don't have to forgive the perpetrator. It would probably help them overcome the pain, but no one is saying they have to show forgiveness. If the wrongdoer asks for forgiveness, showing that they are sincerely sorry for having hurt the victim, it would probably hurt the victim even more to deny them that forgiveness. Regardless of how the wrongdoer feels, the victim, in spite of all the pain, will eventually realize that they can move on in life and don't have to dwell on the wrongdoings of the past. They can still be mad about it if they want to, but bad things happen and people eventually move on. It's part of life, and in this scenario, there's just a certain person to throw the blame at. If it was a natural disaster that caused them pain, they would still have to move on in life, there just wouldn't be that perpetrator to blame for the disaster and heartache.

mkgal1 · May 3, 2017

I saw this book a few years ago in a mission bookstore. The "two hands" represent the two stages of forgiveness. Think of it as one [metaphorical, not literal] hand extended by the offended (wishing for repentance and restoration--leaving vengeance up to God....but keeping realistic and appropriate boundaries)....and the second hand is the offender reaching out with repentance and seeking amends. That made a lot of sense to me (and seems to go along well with both Scripture and reality).

ETA: it's been several years since I've read this book. Apparently it's more than just TWO stages.....it's five:

description of book said:
This illustrated book describes how to forgive in a healthy way by moving through the five stages of forgiveness. This is a forgiveness that renounces vengeance and retaliation, but does not passively acquiesce to abuse in any form.

mkgal1 · May 3, 2017

Zoii said:
I have more an issue of expecting the victim to bear the pain that comes with being a victim, and then being expected to forgive her perpetrator even though he/she may not even ask for forgiveness. That to me is just a recipe for even further angst for the victim, though I recognise most here argue its necessary and that it may even be therapeutic.

I agree with you---and too often church leaders DO unjustly place the burden on the offended--and not the offender. But.....how is that "wanting what's best" (in the traditional misinterpretation of forgiveness, I mean)?

**Trigger warning related to the following article.

Jeff Crippen uses the word "forgiveness" in the way it's often misused (since that's what he's addressing). I think he agrees with you as well:

A Cry for Justice said:
Abuse victims are all the time harangued about being so “unforgiving” and pressured to believe the supposedly “repentant” abuser. I do not operate that way and I recommend no one does. I approach all abusers with this basic presupposition: they don’t change. As I have said many times, if the Lord chooses to surprise me once in a while, I will be very happy when the exception comes along.

Christians can be very, very naive and ignorant about forgiveness, reconciliation, trust, love, mercy, and so on. The problem is, as most all of our readers will attest to, these things are usually granted to the perpetrators of abuse, while the victims are treated unmercilessly.

Anyway, what in the world kind of thinking were these professing Christians engaged in when they permitted this psychopath — with a known murderous record –to be their pastor, pronouncing him forgiven and reformed? Sadly, someone paid with their life.

And these people STILL want to blame it on the devil!~Abuse and Forgiveness: This is Why We Don’t “Forgive”

Dave-W · May 4, 2017

Zoii said:
I have more an issue of expecting the victim to bear the pain that comes with being a victim, and then being expected to forgive her perpetrator even though he/she may not even ask for forgiveness.

I have an issue with that as well.

And it is not only the victim that bears the pain. Other people close to the victim often have to bear it as well.

For instance: If a young girl is sexually abused, whoever she marries after growing up may have to endure decades of a sexless marriage.

Or, if a young boy is brutally beaten as "discipline," statistically he will be an abuser of his own kids.

Dave-W · May 4, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Jeff Crippen uses the word "forgiveness" in the way it's often misused

I had to look this guy up. Interesting website and very insightful. I am thinking of buying one of his books and sending it to a former pastor.

Dave-W · May 4, 2017

mkgal1 said:
too often church leaders DO unjustly place the burden on the offended--and not the offender.

And that is a total perversion of the job of "pastor." As a shepherd of a local flock, he/she is to PROTECT the congregants from such abuse, just like an actual shepherd protects the lambs from either outside predators (wolves, bears) or unruly rams. To allow such abuse to continue violates the general thrust of Eph 4.

Zoii · May 4, 2017

Dave-W said:
And that is a total perversion of the job of "pastor." As a shepherd of a local flock, he/she is to PROTECT the congregants from such abuse, just like an actual shepherd protects the lambs from either outside predators (wolves, bears) or unruly rams. To allow such abuse to continue violates the general thrust of Eph 4.

what do u do when those trusted are the ones to fear the most

Dave-W · May 4, 2017

Zoii said:
what do u do when those trusted are the ones to fear the most

That is a very difficult question.
Other than prayer, I have no idea.

Paidiske · May 4, 2017

Zoii, I suspect part of the answer is in rebuilding your own healthy boundaries; but that is a process probably not best undertaken in an online forum (for your own sake).

Dave-W · May 4, 2017

Paidiske said:
; but that is a process probably not best undertaken in an online forum (for your own sake).

I will STRONGLY agree with that.

Zoii · May 4, 2017

Paidiske · May 4, 2017

I'm not telling you not to talk here! (Lest I be misunderstood). Just saying that some kinds of personal work are best done in a less volatile setting, if that makes sense?

mkgal1 · May 5, 2017

I agree with Paidiske--we don't want you to be hurt even more than you have been already--but that doesn't mean you aren't free to seek out support here, Zoii (does that make sense?).

Is forgiveness fair to the victim

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Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!

Clara bonam audax

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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