Is Observing the 7th day Sabbath a Requirement for Salvation?

Bob S · Apr 16, 2017

Soyeong said:
I know because I've researched what it meant to be a disciple in the 1st century, and 1 Corinthians 11:1 could easily be translated as saying that we should become a copy of him for he is a copy of Christ.

Not even close. Jesus kept His father's commandments which was Torah the laws He was under from birth. He never asked us to keep those commands, instead He asked us to keep His commandments. If they are the same why did He even mention the difference?

You'll have to explain what you mean by my references below not being congruent with my claim.

I will leave that up to you.

God's righteousness is eternal, so the way to do what is unrighteous or sinful is likewise eternal. Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about what commands we should obey, but rather he said that his teaching was not his own but that of the Father (John 7:16), so his commands were the same as the Mosaic Law.

So, all those who before circumcision became revealed, a law, were sinning because righteousness has no beginning or end? Please don't write things you know nothing about. It doesn't do any favors to your belief system or me. Every time you write something like this I really wonder if your church is teaching this or are you expounding off the wall.
Again, If the covenants are the same why did He even mention the difference?

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Likewise, if you believe that Jesus was sinless, that he practiced what he preached, and that he preached what he practiced, then you should believe that he taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word, and that even if he had said nothing that he would have still taught obedience to it by example.

He was under the law preaching to those under the law. The new covenant was not ratified until His death. It took blood to ratify a covenant and it was not until Calvary that He shed His blood. He left it to His disciples and Apostles to spread the good news. Jesus came and did exactly what He came to do. He came to save Israelites from the law of sin and death.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates saying that we ought to obey his commands with saying that we ought to walk in the same way that he walked,

Right, obey His commands. John then goes on and tells us what those commands are and if you dispute his words for your own preconceived ideas then you, well you should know that.
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

so again, his commands are the same as the Mosaic Law that he walked out. Jesus summarized the Law and the Prophets as being instructions for how to love God and how to love your neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40), so if you fully understand what his command to loAve means for us to do, then you will live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Anything that has to do with morality in any covenant will continue. When it comes to specific ritual rules that becomes a much different matter. The rituals you are trying to pass on to us have nothing to do with Christianity, those rituals were for Israel and them only. God made them for Israel, so why do you insist that Christians have to abide by rules that are defunct. Israel is no more. Is that so very hard to understand?

In Romans 10:5-10, it quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord, and you can't believe that he is Lord while refusing to submit to him as Lord, so a failure to practice obedience to the Torah by faith is a failure to believe in Jesus. Jesus showed his love for us through his obedience to the Torah, so not live in obedience to the Torah by faith is likewise a failure to love others as he loved us.

Just plain hogwash and does not warrant my time.

The Torah is the way (Deuteronomy 8:6, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), and Jesus is God's Word made flesh, so Jesus is the living embodiment of the Torah, it is impossible to follow Jesus without following the Torah, and to do away with the Torah is to do away with Jesus. However, God's Word is eternal so it can not come to an end.

More hogwash. Maybe I will comment on the remainder of your post later.

Dave-W · Apr 17, 2017

Bob S said:
Hi Dave Grammy is 100% correct. God has never ask anyone but Israel to observe the Sabbath.

Did you actually read the statement Grammy made that I answered?
"Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to worship on any specific day.."
Who is "we?" In my congregation "we" are Jews and those (like myself) who are "the strangers/gentiles that live in your gates." WE are definitely commanded to keep a specific day.

You can argue your point, but where is the meat. Show us where anyone else has ever been instructed to observe days by God. You can use the Bible or any recognized history of the World.

Exodus 12:49 The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

That "same law" is the Law of Moses.

You have been programmed to believe Christians must observe days, it sure didn't come from the Bible.

I would submit that you have been programed to assume that "Christians" excludes Jews.

The Torah was a law exclusively for Israel And that law ended when Jesus died for Israel and all the children on Earth.

For Israel? Yes.
Exclusively? No. Anyone who wants to can participate and enjoy the benefits.

As far as "ended," you need to take a closer look at the scriptures and how you interpret them. You need to understand that Acts 15 applied ONLY to gentiles coming to faith and NOT Jews. Don't take my word for it; take another look at Acts 21.

[/QUOTE]A new covenant ratified with Jesus blood took the place of the Sinai covenant at Calvary. Paul indicates that over and over and the most easy verses to understand are found in 2Cor 3:7-11. T [/QUOTE]
Written to gentiles. But you then have to answer the question, since the NEW Covenant was addressed to "the whole house of Israel," (read Jeremiah 31) Why did God include gentiles? Your answer is in Romans 11. "... to provoke them [Jews] to jealousy..."

Bob S · Apr 17, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Did you actually read the statement Grammy made that I answered?
"Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to worship on any specific day.."
Who is "we?" In my congregation "we" are Jews and those (like myself) who are "the strangers/gentiles that live in your gates." WE are definitely commanded to keep a specific day.

We= Christians Dave. If the Jews in your congregation have accepted Jesus as Savior then they are part of WE. We are not commanded anywhere in Scripture to observe any day. You and your congregation are following rules that were not meant for Christians. Those ritual rules were for Israel only and Israel broke those rules thus negating the covenant and thus negating Biblical Israel

Exodus 12:49 The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

There is no Israel, so how could that law apply even if the law still existed?

That "same law" is the Law of Moses.

Yes, the defunct law of Moses, the one that was replaced by the new covenant.

I would submit that you have been programed to assume that "Christians" excludes Jews.

And I more than assume that you are clueless as to what I believe about my brothers since I am half Jew I do know a little about the faith. Jews exclude themselves. I pray that Jews will accept Jesus and the new covenant. You Messianics are the ones who are teaching fallacy by teaching Jews that they are still under Torah. That may make the comfortable, but it is not the truth.

For Israel? Yes.
Exclusively? No. Anyone who wants to can participate and enjoy the benefits.

What benefits Dave? Why do you believe how and when you worship is more beneficial than your neighbors that fellowship on Sunday or any other day?

As far as "ended," you need to take a closer look at the scriptures and how you interpret them. You need to understand that Acts 15 applied ONLY to gentiles coming to faith and NOT Jews. Don't take my word for it; take another look at Acts 21.

If Torah had not ended then Act21 should not have happened. In essence you are telling me that we are still under the old covenant. If that is true why have you Messianics not rebuilt the Temple so that you can really keep the old covenant? Do you men look like the Hasidic Jews with their long sideburn hair? Are you wearing tassels on your garments made with only one material?

[/QUOTE]A new covenant ratified with Jesus blood took the place of the Sinai covenant at Calvary. Paul indicates that over and over and the most easy verses to understand are found in 2Cor 3:7-11. T [/QUOTE]

Written to gentiles.

Now you are indicating Paul really was a deceiver telling some one thing while it didn't apply to others. No my friend, that comment will not fly and you will have to do better than that.

But you then have to answer the question, since the NEW Covenant was addressed to "the whole house of Israel," (read Jeremiah 31) Why did God include gentiles? Your answer is in Romans 11. "... to provoke them [Jews] to jealousy..."

Is that the only reason you could come up with? It couldn't have been that God who created the Gentiles wanted them to have the opportunity to be delivered too. It couldn't have been that the plan of salvation planned before the foundation of the Earth would at some point include all of God's people.

God promised Israel a new covenant. Israelites were the ones who broke the covenant they were given, so God addressed the promise in Jeremiah to them. The covenant would be with Israel just as was the old one. Did the old one exclude gentiles? It was addressed only to Israel, so why would God allow gentiles to claim it? The same reason applies to the new covenant. Jesus said to include all, go into all the world....

Dave-W · Apr 17, 2017

Bob S said:
Now you are indicating Paul really was a deceiver telling some one thing while it didn't apply to others. No my friend, that comment will not fly and you will have to do better than that.

In Galatians, there is a mention of Paul and Peter (and other apostles) having a conversation on what Paul was preaching. Paul records that it was agreed that Peter and the rest of the apostles would preach the "Gospel to the Circumcision;" while Paul would preach the "Gospel to the Uncircumcision." (Gal 2.7) There is a difference. Paul recognized it, as did Peter and James.

From Acts 21. James speaking to Paul:

21 and they [Jewish believers in Jerusalem] have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

If what you are saying is true - then the rumors of which James spoke were true. But James gives a way for Paul to prove they were NOT true:

23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

James then goes on to reiterate that the decision of Acts 15 applied ONLY to gentiles:

25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.

So Paul has the golden opportunity here to declare that Moses is dead and gone for New Covenant believing Jews. What does he do? He follows James' suggestion. That means he was PROVING (in their terms) the exact opposite. He buys the sacrificial animals to discharge his own Nazirite vow and that for 4 other men.

So either Paul lied, (not likely) or he wimped out, (even less likely) OR he believed exactly as I say he did.

Dave-W · Apr 17, 2017

Bob S said:
Is that the only reason you could come up with? It couldn't have been that God who created the Gentiles wanted them to have the opportunity to be delivered too. It couldn't have been that the plan of salvation planned before the foundation of the Earth would at some point include all of God's people.

It is the only reason given in scripture.

Rom 11.11 I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

jerry kelso · Apr 17, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
It is the only reason given in scripture.

Rom 11.11 I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

davew-ohev,

1. Roman's 11:11 is not the only reason the Gentiles were saved.
Bob s was talking about the church of Jews and Gentiles on the same level found in the body of Christ which was the mystery of the church Ephesians 2:14-15; 3:3-6 who were predestined as found in Ephesians 1:2.
The Gentiles as a wild olive tree who had no covenant were grafted in the main branches who was Israel.
NC Jewish and Gentile believers are to make the nation of Israel jealous so they will come back to God to fulfill their Kingdom covenants of their gifts and callings Romans 11-25-29.
This is is why there is a Jewish remnant even in Paul's day. Got to go! Jerry kelso

Dave-W · Apr 18, 2017

jerry kelso said:
1. Roman's 11:11 is not the only reason the Gentiles were saved.

Show me one other verse anywhere in scripture that gives another REASON for God drawing the Gentiles.

jerry kelso · Apr 18, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Show me one other verse anywhere in scripture that gives another REASON for God drawing the Gentiles.

davew-ohev,

1. Ephesians 1:4-5
This is talking about those who God had chosen that would believe in him who Christ would save.
The plan of redemption was salvation for all men John 16; for God so loved the whole world, etc.

2. Gentiles were saved before the Jewish race was started through Abraham for Enoch was translated because of his walk with God Genesis 5:24 and Noah found grace in the eyes of grace Genesis 6:8 etc.
All the saints in the Old Testament were saved by grace through faith by obedience to whatever revelation they had of salvation.
However, no Jew or Gentile would have been saved completely and to the uttermost if Christ had not died and rose again. This is why Hebrews 11:40 says, God having provided some better thing for us that they without us should not be perfected.
Hebrews 1:9-10 Jesus is Captain of our salvation, perfect through sufferings and his death and resurrection is the context.
Hebrews 9:16-17 backs this up in the fact of the final sacrifice who was Christ himself on the cross.

3. It is true that Israel had the oracles of God Romans 3:2 and they were propagators of the gospel as salt and light of the earth Matthew 5:13-16.
It was because of their rejection Matthew 23:37-39 that they were given the curse of 70 A.D. Matthew 24:1-2 by Jesus.
Acts 28 got tired of their being obstinate to the truth and went to the Gentiles who did listen and believe.

4. The Gentiles are to provoke the Jews to jealousy but so are the Jewish remnant of grace in the body of Christ.
So this reason happened because of what I just said that the scriptures say and unfolded through gradual revelation historically.
But, that doesn't mean it's the only reason God went to the gentiles for all men who believed were predestined to be a part of God's family.

5. God drawing the Gentiles was from before the foundation of the world and was a mystery to the Jews until Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean Acts 10 and Paul Ephesians 2:14-15; 3:3-6.
Drawing Gentiles so they could provoke Jews to jealousy is how it unfolded but was not the only reason and not the main reason John 3:16. Jerry kelso

Dave-W · Apr 18, 2017

jerry kelso said:
davew-ohev,

Sorry - but none of that gives a REASON that you have not assigned to it.

Yes God foretold that the gentiles were to be included.
And Yes, He loves everyone.

But none of that says it is an actual reason.

Bob S · Apr 18, 2017

All that has happened and will happen are parts of the plan of Salvation conceived before the Earth was formed. We, today, are players in one part of the plan. God is using us so that we have a part in saving those who give their hearts to Jesus. It is not about when or how we worship or even where we worship. We are told to assemble ourselves together in corporate worship. We are to teach the unbelieving the simple plan of salvation.

Those who spend their time preparing for a special day that has no meaning for Christians are wasting their time for naught.
Their time spent with unbelievers trying to convince them that they must observe the special days given only to Israel instead of teaching them the good news has to be a disappointment to God.

Dave-W · Apr 18, 2017

Bob S said:
Those who spend their time preparing for a special day that has no meaning for Christians are wasting their time for naught.

Bob - I would like your take on this scripture. James is speaking and had just laid out the four commands/prohibitions for GENTILE (not Jewish) believers in the New Covenant.

Acts 15. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

jerry kelso · Apr 18, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Sorry - but none of that gives a REASON that you have not assigned to it.

Yes God foretold that the gentiles were to be included.
And Yes, He loves everyone.

But none of that says it is an actual reason.

Dave-ohev,

1. The actual reason is God's plan of salvation was for all men to be saved John 3:16; Ephesians 1:4-5.

2. The reason that the Gentiles were the strangers at the gate is because Israel was chosen to be the Messianic lineage and was the the full theocracy God worked through Genesis 12-15 to bless the families of the earth.

3. Paul explains that the reason that unfolded for the Gentiles to come into the picture was because of Israel's rejection and for the Gentiles to provoke the Jewish nation to jealousy.

4. These 2 reasons of the Jews rejection and the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy and the fact that the church was predestined from before the foundation of the world. These are scriptural reasons and facts to your one.
And last but not least, just because the mystery of the church of Jew and Gentile alike doesn't mean that your reason is first and foremost. So you are wrong according to the scripture. Jerry kelso

Bob S · Apr 18, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Bob - I would like your take on this scripture. James is speaking and had just laid out the four commands/prohibitions for GENTILE (not Jewish) believers in the New Covenant.

Acts 15. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The meaning of "preach him" means preaching the book of the law or Torah. The gentiles had just been told they were not subject to the book of the law except food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. They didn't have to observe days or other ritual duties their counterpart were doing even though Paul had told his listeners that they were no longer under Torah. Gal 3:19 Gentiles were blessed with the Holy Spirit as their Guide and didn't need the Jews to lead them into the now defunct old covenant given only to Israel and no other nation. 2Cor3:7-11

Dave-W · Apr 19, 2017

Bob S said:
The meaning of "preach him" means preaching the book of the law or Torah. The gentiles had just been told they were not subject to the book of the law except food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. They didn't have to observe days or other ritual duties their counterpart were doing even though Paul had told his listeners that they were no longer under Torah. Gal 3:19 Gentiles were blessed with the Holy Spirit as their Guide and didn't need the Jews to lead them into the now defunct old covenant given only to Israel and no other nation. 2Cor3:7-11

So WHY did James say that? We know from history how that phrase was taken - as encouragement for the gentile believers to go to the synagogue and LEARN Moses. That lasted up to the 70 ad destruction of the temple when the Jesus believers both Jew and Gentile were kicked out; and that slowly changed back to allowing them until the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad, where the prohibition became permanent.

Since it was seen as encouragement, why do YOU think James was encouraging gentile believers to learn Moses at their local synagogue?

Bob S · Apr 19, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
So WHY did James say that? We know from history how that phrase was taken - as encouragement for the gentile believers to go to the synagogue and LEARN Moses. That lasted up to the 70 ad destruction of the temple when the Jesus believers both Jew and Gentile were kicked out; and that slowly changed back to allowing them until the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad, where the prohibition became permanent.

Your theory denies the first part of chapter15 where gentiles are told they do not have to be observant to Torah. I have found in discussing Messianic beliefs with Messianics that you will go to any extent to twist scripture to make your belief system sound kosher. The verse certainly does not encourage gentiles to learn the laws of Moses when it was just decided just the opposite.

Since it was seen as encouragement,

Strawman, you have no basis to tell us it was an encouragement. How about getting real friend.

why do YOU think James was encouraging gentile believers to learn Moses at their local synagogue?

Another strawman. How about answering a question for me. Why did Paul write the following: 2Cor3:7-11
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Transitory means temporary and the whole message about the 10 commandments is in past tense. You who thump the law has some splainin to do.

While we are at it would you also explain why Paul wrote in Gal 3:19 that the laws was until Jesus.

Got to go for now. Be back this afternoon. Bob

Dave-W · Apr 19, 2017

Bob S said:
Your theory denies the first part of chapter15 where gentiles are told they do not have to be observant to Torah.

It is not a matter of "have to be." It is a matter of "recommended." There is a difference.

Bob S · Apr 19, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
It is not a matter of "have to be." It is a matter of "recommended." There is a difference.

I don't buy that for a minute. Verse 10 reads: 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

You also are trying to put a yoke around our necks when you come on this forum and teach what you do. Why would anyone who is able to think things out, read the verses I gave you in my last post to you and all the other scripture that indicates we are not under the laws given to Israel, want to burden themselves with trying to observe old covenant days and keep laws not intended for us?

As a SDA I was out of work for 6 months because I would not work on the Israelite Sabbath. Four children and no job. I was brainwashed into believing this is what I had to do. You folks even add more burden to that and what for? Because it is recommended? I say hogwash. Do what you think you have to do, but don't try pushing it off on others.

jerry kelso · Apr 20, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
It is not a matter of "have to be." It is a matter of "recommended." There is a difference.

davew-ohev,

1. 1 Corinthians 9:20 is the key to why Paul purified himself with the 4 Jews who were part of the zealous Jews Acts 21:20.
Romans 10:2; Zeal of God but not according to knowledge.
Don't you understand that Paul was all things to all men 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 for the gospel's sake.
If one will understand this then one won't be confused about what Paul really said.

2. Circumcision was not wrong physical purposes anymore than a dietary law of eating kosher food that is smart for one's health.
Circumcision to attain salvation under the requirements of the law were wrong under the New Covenant Acts 15:2.
The apostles including James wrote letters to the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria,and Cilicia telling them that they had heard of this accusation to subvert their souls to make them be circumcised of which was not given any such commandment from the true apostles and elders, verse 22.

3. Verse 23: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath but not the message to the Gentiles in verse 20. Read and understand context instead of what you think it may imply. The same goes for Acts 21. (1Corinthians 9:20; Roman's 10:2).
Acts 22:3-16 explains his zeal for the law and yet lacked knowledge. These Jew were believers and still misled by lack of knowledge because of there zeal for the law of Moses.
Paul thought he was a God pleaser and was killing Christians and they wanted to no less. Proper context has to be understood. Jerry kelso

Dave-W · Apr 20, 2017

jerry kelso said:
1. 1 Corinthians 9:20 is the key to why Paul purified himself with the 4 Jews who were part of the zealous Jews Acts 21:20.

Did you question "purify himself" from WHAT exactly? Paul himself ALSO took on a Nazirite vow which was broken in Cenchria (Acts 18.8) probably by someone dying in his presence.

Why would the apostle take on a purely voluntary vow that included animal sacrifice and very few Jews (even gung-ho pharisees and rabbis) ever took?

jerry kelso · Apr 20, 2017

DaveW-Ohev said:
Did you question "purify himself" from WHAT exactly? Paul himself ALSO took on a Nazirite vow which was broken in Cenchria (Acts 18.8) probably by someone dying in his presence.

Why would the apostle take on a purely voluntary vow that included animal sacrifice and very few Jews (even gung-ho pharisees and rabbis) ever took?

davew-ohev,

1. 1 Corinthians 9:20.
Paul was an easy target because he adhere to the New Covenant.
Culturally, he was a Jew but the vow had to do with becoming a Jew to win them to Christ as much as he could because the Judaizers and zealots of the law knew he taught why thy they were not to adhere under the law in Moses context.

2. Paul would have had to abstain from grapes so he wouldn't done that vow for more than a week because of the Lord's Supper on the Lord's day Acts 20:7.

3. Acts 18:18; Nazarite vow in connection with Priscilla and Aquila.
Phoebe was the servant of the church at Cenchrea. They were not Mosaic lawkeepers.

4. Acts 21; zealots of the law. It was a form of appeasement to some but it was an opportunity for Paul to show them the truth.
I understand he purification laws required sacrifices and water baptism etc.
Acts 21:26; entered into the temple.
To signify the accomplishment of the days of purification until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. Acts 21:26; Numbers 6:13.
Paul had a different motive than the zealots.
Even in the tribulation the Jews will give sacrifices but all the feasts etc. will be as a memorial.

5. So Paul never violated his conscience or his position in Christ under the New Covenant and appeased the zealots and took the opportunity to try and win the Jews Acts 22:1-22.

6. You seemed to have the idea that preached the law of Moses in the synagogues.
Acts 18:19 and reasoned with the Jews.
Sorry, but you have the wrong logic and wrong understanding of the historical context . Jerry kelso

Is Observing the 7th day Sabbath a Requirement for Salvation?

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