claninja

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A very famous verse, that most of us know, states "For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life".

I don't know any Christians who have not perished/physically died. Does this mean that perish is talking about spiritual death? And if so, then does eternal life refer to spiritual life, and not just living forever?
 
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claninja

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Oh,
there might be a handful
around today....
still breathing ! :)

(TEST always, TEST everything , to be sure, as written)

Haha, you know what I mean. Let me rephrase.
My great grandpa was a Christian. He perished a long time ago. If John 3:16 is about physical death, then why did my great grandpa physically die?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Haha, you know what I mean. Let me rephrase.
My great grandpa was a Christian. He perished a long time ago. If John 3:16 is about physical death, then why did my great grandpa physically die?
:) ...... okay, yes, I thought I knew ... good....

the physical death might not actually happen (needing clarification)....
though we all (most) suffer infirmaties of the flesh in the here and now -
many UNnecessarily, due to lack of knowledge ,
but
anyhow will
look up will never die,
or will not die
(I forgot the exact words and context) ....
so will be looking also, in Bible search...

But related to the little girl , Tabitha ? , also , ....

Specifically what did / does Jesus Himself in His Own Words Say in the Bible ?

And in Harmony, complete integrity, with ALL of YHWH'S Word and Purpose and Plan....
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Short example of Bible search for key word "die"
Over 400 results in OLD TESTAMENT .
Over 100 results in NEW TESTAMENT.

short excerpt:
Genesis 5:5
Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:8
Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:11
Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:14
Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:17
Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:20
Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:27
Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.
Genesis 5:31
Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.
 
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claninja

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:) ...... okay, yes, I thought I knew ... good....

the physical death might not actually happen (needing clarification)....
though we all (most) suffer infirmaties of the flesh in the here and now -
many UNnecessarily, due to lack of knowledge ,
but
anyhow will
look up will never die,
or will not die
(I forgot the exact words and context) ....
so will be looking also, in Bible search...

But related to the little girl , Tabitha ? , also , ....

Specifically what did / does Jesus Himself in His Own Words Say in the Bible ?

And in Harmony, complete integrity, with ALL of YHWH'S Word and Purpose and Plan....

John 11:25-26 would be a good place to start

verse 25, Jesus said" I am the resurrection and life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live". While this could be talking about spiritual death followed by spiritual life by believing in Christ, the order of words and context of Lazarus' physical death make it appear to be about physical death and resurrection.

verse 26, "and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die."
Now this sounds like Jesus is talking about spiritual death because, obviously, Christians still die physically.

Mary's response, to me, is very intriguing. She doesn't say yes I believe in the resurrection and life, she says yes I believe you are Christ, the son of God, who is coming into the world.

Thought's? Other verses?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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obviously, Christians still die physically.
Key.
Again, back to Jesus' Words. You did find one or two of those I found too after I posted that last to look for.

Key word: Jesus Spoken Word: "sleep" ; where does Jesus say "sleep" ....
(not at all referring to the doctrines and messes
and arguments about what others have called soul sleep)
 
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claninja

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:) ...... okay, yes, I thought I knew ... good....

the physical death might not actually happen (needing clarification)....
though we all (most) suffer infirmaties of the flesh in the here and now -
many UNnecessarily, due to lack of knowledge ,
but
anyhow will
look up will never die,
or will not die
(I forgot the exact words and context) ....
so will be looking also, in Bible search...

But related to the little girl , Tabitha ? , also , ....

Specifically what did / does Jesus Himself in His Own Words Say in the Bible ?

And in Harmony, complete integrity, with ALL of YHWH'S Word and Purpose and Plan....

We also have John 8:51-53.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? "

So the Jews assume he is talking about physical death and say He has a devil because Abraham and the prophets are physically dead. The audience, who consisted of some pharisees, believed in the resurrection, so based on their response it would seem they are thinking Jesus is saying if you believe in him, you will never physically die.

Key.
Again, back to Jesus' Words. You did find one or two of those I found too after I posted that last to look for.

Key word: Jesus Spoken Word: "sleep" ; where does Jesus say "sleep" ....
(not at all referring to the doctrines and messes
and arguments about what others have called soul sleep)

John 11:11
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, even though he had been physically dead for 4 days.

It would seem that Jesus places a more important emphasis on spiritual death, then physical; equating spiritual death to actual death, but physical death to mere sleep.
 
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cordie

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A very famous verse, that most of us know, states "For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life".

I don't know any Christians who have not perished/physically died. Does this mean that perish is talking about spiritual death? And if so, then does eternal life refer to spiritual life, and not just living forever?
This is a good query & this is why I find the bible too profound. We have all lost relatives. They all perished. Where did they go? Beats me. Is it something too profound that I can't understand. Or is it a particular state of being? What do they mean eternal life? Do you walk around like a ghost with no body? What age are you?
 
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A very famous verse, that most of us know, states "For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life".

I don't know any Christians who have not perished/physically died. Does this mean that perish is talking about spiritual death? And if so, then does eternal life refer to spiritual life, and not just living forever?
Yes...
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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This is a good query & this is why I find the bible too profound. We have all lost relatives. They all perished. Where did they go? Beats me. Is it something too profound that I can't understand. Or is it a particular state of being? What do they mean eternal life? Do you walk around like a ghost with no body? What age are you?
The answer actually is simple, in God's Word,
starting in Genesis.
A lot of what God Says clarifies what God Says - perfectly.

What happened then? Why did men stray ?
< shrugs >
Sin. As written...
Not trusting God.
Not trusting nor abiding in God's Word.

There is a lot to read - it takes months just reading daily.
But that is the only way to know.
Or listen every sabbath to the reading of Scripture,
without added man's ways.
Then it takes 3 years plus, but 'perfect' if and as God directs.

Jesus the GOOD SHEPHERD is perfect, and
is
shepherding us daily. Every day.

So? Follow JESUS ! Listen to JESUS!
We know His Voice and
will not follow another - we will not follow a hired hand.
 
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Greg Merrill

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A very famous verse, that most of us know, states "For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life".

I don't know any Christians who have not perished/physically died. Does this mean that perish is talking about spiritual death? And if so, then does eternal life refer to spiritual life, and not just living forever?
Another way to think of "death" is to think of the word "separation." Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body. "For as the body without the spirit is dead..." Jas 2:26. Spiritual death is when a person is separated from God. Spiritual death is not spiritual unconsciousness as like when we speak of physical death regarding the body. The body may be unconscious at death, but the spirit is still unconscious, either in heaven (with God) or in hell (separated from God). We are spiritually dead (separated from God) when physically born, (but we have a spirit that will be conscious of Him as we grow.) This is why Jesus said "Ye must be born again" in order to see the kingdom of God, as well as go to Heaven. Positionally speaking, non-Christians are "dead men walking," physically alive/spiritually dead in relation to God and by God's account. People that physically die that way will remain spiritually dead, separated from God, consciously existing in torment forever. People that are born again may die physically (if not raptured beforehand) but will never be separated from God, so will never die spiritually (Jn 11:25,26). Eternal life refers to those united with God. Eternal death refers to those existing consciously in torment apart from God.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Man was created in the SPIRITUAL image of God.

Genesis 1:27
God created man in His own (spiritual) image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God is pure and perfect SPIRIT.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

All SPIRITS are immortal.

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (body/soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (SEE: Genesis 2:7)
and the spirit (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (SEE: Genesis 1:26 SPIRITUAL image)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!

Jesus the God-Man's SPIRIT was "committed" to heaven by Him.
His "spirit-body" ascended.
Man's SPIRIT either dwells with or is separated from God...
....eternal life in the heavenly realms for believers.
....eternal existence in the "lake of fire" for UN-believers.

Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,

John 6:63...Jesus
It is the Spirit who gives life;
the flesh profits nothing;
the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
 
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claninja

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Man was created in the SPIRITUAL image of God.

Genesis 1:27
God created man in His own (spiritual) image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God is pure and perfect SPIRIT.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

All SPIRITS are immortal.

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
7 then the dust (body/soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (SEE: Genesis 2:7)
and the spirit (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (SEE: Genesis 1:26 SPIRITUAL image)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!

Jesus the God-Man's SPIRIT was "committed" to heaven by Him.
His "spirit-body" ascended.
Man's SPIRIT either dwells with or is separated from God...
....eternal life in the heavenly realms for believers.
....eternal existence in the "lake of fire" for UN-believers.

Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,

John 6:63...Jesus
It is the Spirit who gives life;
the flesh profits nothing;
the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

1 Timothy 6:16
God alone is immortal

Ecclesiastes 9:5
The dead know nothing

Acts 2:34
David did not ascend to heaven at death

Hebrew 11:13
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the judges, etc... did not received what was promised, but looked at it from afar

Romans 6:23
Eternal life is a gift

Genesis 1:20,24,30
Animals also have "nephesh" breath of life/spirit

The concept of dualism (the idea that man has an immortal soul trapped inside his body) has been heavily influenced on Judaism and Christianity from pagan cultures throughout the centuries.
 
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ToBeLoved

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A very famous verse, that most of us know, states "For God so loved the world, that He gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life".

I don't know any Christians who have not perished/physically died. Does this mean that perish is talking about spiritual death? And if so, then does eternal life refer to spiritual life, and not just living forever?
Physical death is not the end of anything. If anything, for Christ's Own it is a new life not full of pain and despair, but a new life with Christ in the heavenly places where He is building a place for us.

Jesus was glorified by the Father when He rose up to heaven. God's Word says we will one day be glorified as Christ was glorified (I don't know if it is the same as Christ's or different, but we will be glorified).

God calls us His Children and heirs. We are in the family of God and heirs to all that God is. We have a wonderful future.
 
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Hillsage

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So the Jews assume he is talking about physical death and say He has a devil because Abraham and the prophets are physically dead. The audience, who consisted of some pharisees, believed in the resurrection, so based on their response it would seem they are thinking Jesus is saying if you believe in him, you will never physically die.

JOH 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!" 23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die;..

So, apparently, from the verse above, even the church thought John wouldn't die. Ever hear of the saying; "The wandering Jew."? It was about a 'mythical' man who was immortal. :idea: Historical record itself tells that John was thrown alive into burning oil, but was not hurt. He was then exiled to Patmos. There is no historical record of his death.

John 11:11
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, even though he had been physically dead for 4 days.

It would seem that Jesus places a more important emphasis on spiritual death, then physical; equating spiritual death to actual death, but physical death to mere sleep.
I think Jesus understood a bit more than that. I think that the big "soul sleep doctrines and messes" POV is simply a lack in the church of understanding the triune man.

When you die the spirit returns to God, and I agree with Ron Gurly, all spirits are eternal. Your soul, which is the mind/will/emotions, enters into soul sleep to be awoken on the day of judgement when all the graves are opened and everyone will be judged for what they did in the way of good/evil.

JOH 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

But before 'that hour comes' every body shall perish and return to dust or ashes of the earth from whence it came. Unless one believes in following Jesus to the point that they do not sin and thereby overcome the last enemy of death. Something even Jesus didn't do, because He died. Therefore 'death had its sting', even though it was more temporary for Jesus than the rest of us...or maybe not at all????....in the case of John? :confused: :)
 
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Ron Gurley

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Let's do some "spiritual" math!

God created Man in His own SPIRITUAL Image, (soul?) Likeness (Genesis 1:26)

God has no BODY.(sarx) God has no SOUL.(psyche)

God is SPIRIT. (worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH) John 4:24

Man has a Body/Soul combo which is mortal.
Man has a SPIRIT which is immortal.

Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH, SPIRIT returns to God
Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no delight in them”;...
For man goes to his ETERNAL home while mourners go about in the street....
7 then the dust (body/soul) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
and the SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it (body/soul)
And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

Zechariah 12:1 ...Thus declares the Lord
who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the SPIRIT of man within him,

Man is divided into 3 parts:
1. SPIRIT = (~God conscience/ spiritual Image = pneuma),
2. SOUL = (~psyche / personality / God Likeness = psyche) and
3. BODY = (~man's machine, controlled by brain bucket /CNS = sarx)

The Soul of Man is also a DYNAMIC REACTION of its 3 parts:
1. MIND...the process of intellect...stored knowledge...its function is "thinking" / "reasoning"
2. WILL...your decision maker...your computer-reactor...your balancer
3. EMOTIONS...how you "feel"...natural reactions / intuitive responses

The Body of Man has its 5 senses / sensors (maybe 6?) to interact with environment....Biology 101

The Soul of Man is the "snowflake" individual personality which starts with some genetic predispositions and is generally developed in and around the brain "bucket" and CNS electrical conductions...Psychology 101

The Spirit of Man searches for its Creator,..Bible 101
At the time of salvation, the battle begins:
BODY / SOUL against God ...VERSUS... BODY / SOUL / Indwelling SPIRIT.

Jewish tradition (?) believed that you:
1. KNOW in your "heart"...Spirit / conscience
2. FEEL in your "gut"...emotions
3. DECIDE in your "head"/brain...mind
 
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ToBeLoved

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John 11:11
"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep."

Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, even though he had been physically dead for 4 days.

It would seem that Jesus places a more important emphasis on spiritual death, then physical; equating spiritual death to actual death, but physical death to mere sleep.
I agree with what you said.

I wanted to add a little context to this also.

My pastor once preached on the Lazarus death and said that people back then did not consider someone to be dead until they had been 'dead' for three days. So with Jesus waiting four days with Lazarus, He was showing that Lazarus was really dead so that when He raised Lazarus back up it would be a miracle.

In the story, even though Jesus finds out about Lazarus death and loves Lazarus, He waits. That is what I believe Jesus waited for. To prove that Lazarus was really dead and not just in a coma or something.
 
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Greg Merrill

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I agree with what you said.

I wanted to add a little context to this also.

My pastor once preached on the Lazarus death and said that people back then did not consider someone to be dead until they had been 'dead' for three days. So with Jesus waiting four days with Lazarus, He was showing that Lazarus was really dead so that when He raised Lazarus back up it would be a miracle.

In the story, even though Jesus finds out about Lazarus death and loves Lazarus, He waits. That is what I believe Jesus waited for. To prove that Lazarus was really dead and not just in a coma or something.
Good points. We might also consider that it is the body that sleeps/rests/is unconscious,decays and breaks down over time. The spirit doesn't sleep, therefore "soul-sleep" is a false doctrine. Just thought I would add that.
 
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