Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?
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kepha31
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Your OP, and this post, has nothing to do with purgatory. They are misunderstandings.
The work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter. It involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin.
Furthermore, we've got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ's unfinished work. I've already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There's nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It's finished, but it needs to be applied.
"purgatory, flies in the face of what Christ has provided for us" is a gross misunderstanding.
Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven.
Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself.
For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession and be absolved of that sin. Jesus paid the price for my sin. But......... the window is STILL broken. The broken window is the "consequence" of my sin and it still needs to be repaired. The Cross does not repair the window, that is my responsibility.
Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the broken windows in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.
As to why Purgatory? The answer is love. We cannot enter heaven unless we are perfected and totally holy. While we may die in a state of grace most of us are probably not perfect. Purgatory is a place of perfection. It purges the imperfections from us 'til what is left is pure gold.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is a great definition of Purgatory:
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
In otherwords, how well we lived our lives as Christians will be judged, the good works and not-so-good works will be judge. The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging. The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.
We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed. We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire. Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.
Again, this is NOT about purging sin, it is about purging the consequences of sin (paying for the broken windows) and about purging our imperfections in living the Christ-life.
Matthew 12:31-32 (RSV) Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. [32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This passage makes reference to forgiveness after death: something that is anathema to Protestantism. This particular super-serious sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) is not forgiven, yet it is clear that Jesus is presupposing that there are other sins that are forgiven after death: which is one of the tenets of purgatory: forgiveness for and temporal punishment of sins after death for the person who is already saved and will inevitably make it to heaven in due course.
more biblical proofs here
further reference: Purgatory | Catholic Answers
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2Timothy2:15
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I know that is what you have been taught. But that is twisting what that scripture means, communion is not a means of salvation in itself.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
The nature of someone born again changes as soon as they are born again.
Those who are not born again cannot ever get a new nature/ be a new creation any other way - the old nature is not fixed.
The old nature in men , the carnal nature, rebels against truth every day.
The new nature rejoices in union with JESUS, today, already.
Those who are not born again cannot ever get a new nature/ be a new creation any other way - the old nature is not fixed.
The old nature in men , the carnal nature, rebels against truth every day.
The new nature rejoices in union with JESUS, today, already.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Seeking forgiveness after death is so contrary to God's Word,
it automatically puts the whole myth in the devil's lies category.
it automatically puts the whole myth in the devil's lies category.
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If that's purgatory, I definitely do not believe in it.
I mean payng for something we did here, as in the "consequences" after we are dead? First...doesn't seem possible. What are you going to do go back as a Ghost and repair the window or hand the broken window victim a few bucks?
And that doesn't even touch on, is is biblical or not. Where do y'all get this stuff from?
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kepha31
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It's one thing to avoid Matthew 12:31-32, denying it is worse. There are other biblical proofs, you won't like them either. Nobody "seeks forgiveness after death", it just means you cannot comprehend my post. But I suppose messing up my context makes denial easier.
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Really?
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Good grief, how clear does the Lord have to be with this? Not only that, but the very first disciples understood and taught this as a reality. The belief in the Eucharist did not just suddenly pop up some four centuries later as some sort of after thought. It was taught from the very beginning.
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No one in Orthodoxy or Catholicism believes we "earn" our salvation. It is a free gift by the grace of God through faith. You are confused (or mistaught).
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Sad , isn't it? (not the so-called make believe you call reality)...
JESUS' disciples left him when he talked about this.
Some disciples stayed and remained faithful.
They did not understand it either,
until he said "My words are spirit, and they are life".
How simple and true . Spirit and life.
Not physical, carnal, and anti-TORAH. (JESUS never sinned)
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Nope.
That is Augustine's legal definition which took off during the Medieval times. Doesn't fly in the East at all. The Cross has restored mankind to God completely, and if there is such a thing as a legal "debt" (the broken window) that is covered also. This is why in Eastern Catholic churches, such as the Melkite Church, after you go to Confession and are done, the priest gives no penance.
In the East, it is about the healing of the soul, not about the legal consequences of the action. Any legality was taken care of by the Cross, and if I remember correctly, this was Luther's argument against Indulgences (sheeeesh, look at me quoting the heretic Luther!). We do not see any legal basis in the work of the Sacraments at all, from baptism onward. All of it is about healing the soul, not paying off some debt that we owe.
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So... you are saying we have to suffer after we die, to provide restitution for the effects of the sins we have committed? Restitution means to pay back either the item, or the value of that item, to its rightful owner. This means we have to pay for the evil that was done to others, even before we were saved.
So, how much would a former child-molester have to suffer in purgatory, to pay restitution for how he damaged that child? How much would a persecutor of Christians, like Saul of Tarsus, have to pay in purgatory, to repay what he did in forcing Christians to blaspheme Christ? How much will Eve have to suffer in purgatory, for eating that forbidden fruit? Think of all those consequences! That's more than one person could ever repay, for an eternity of purgatory!
There is absolutely no Scripture for thinking that after we die, we "get to" suffer in Purgatory, to make restitution for all the sins we committed in this life. Instead, the Word says this:
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
He removed them from us! We are no longer connected to the broken windows!
Furthermore:
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
If He says He will not remember them, how come we "get to go" to purgatory, for something God can't even remember?
A good Father only makes his son pay for a broken window to teach him to be more careful. Not because that son owes it, and the Father is too stingy to pay for it.
But after we die, why would we have to pay for it? It's not like we will learn from it, to apply it in future situations.
What does it mean, to be redeemed? It means all of our sins are forgiven. We are made pure and holy. clean.
Yes, there is suffering, in the path to working out our salvation, as the Holy Ghost teaches us to lay down our own lives, to take up our cross, and to follow Christ in selfless love for Him and others.
I think the root problem lies much deeper than this.
I think it lies in how we see ourselves. It's a problem of identity.
Romans 7 talks about how a person who is redeemed struggles with sin in his carnal body.
Paul works through this struggle, and identifies the point of breakthrough in verse 17:
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
How does this give him the breakthrough? verses 20-22:
"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man"
And seeing himself as a dichotomy between a dead external person, and an alive internal person, made all the difference. Because: (verses 24-25)
who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(conclusion: ) So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So Paul has arrived at a conclusion: One who confesses his sin, is forgiven, and becomes a new person... but that new personhood exists only in his spirit.
The Spirit (the REAL Paul!) is alive. But the flesh is dead.
Wait a minute. That sounds like a verse in the next chapter. Check it out, along with the context:
Romans 8:9b Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (bring to life) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Don't you see it? (Notice the dead body link in those verses. the subject is the same: dead in the flesh. Needing to quicken those dead bodies, to the Spirit of God.)
One who comes to Christ, is dead in the carnality of his flesh.
Baby Christians are carnal.
They constantly struggle with the flesh, which seems to be in charge most of the time.
They dwell in Romans 7.
Their spirits are alive... but their bodies dwell in a state of dead-to-the-Spirit-of-God.
But Romans 8:11 says that there's another step to this.
The step of becoming indwelt by the spirit of God. (The One who raised up Christ from the dead.)
Do you see the difference between "having the spirit of Christ" and "having the spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead"?
It's the baptism of the Holy Ghost, subsequent to salvation.
In that baptism of the Holy Ghost, is where the power to overcome carnality, lies.
Not in purgatory.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
New nature vs old nature.
Christ vs flesh.
God's Word vs pagan traditions.
Nope, no reconciling those things.
Christ vs flesh.
God's Word vs pagan traditions.
Nope, no reconciling those things.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
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kepha31
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Psalm 66:12 Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.
This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen [4] and St. Ambrose, [5] who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (see also Isaiah 1:25-26)
St. Francis de Sales, the great Catholic apologist of the 16th century, commented on this verse as follows:
Isaiah 6:5-7 And I said:”Woe is me! for I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.“
This passage is a noteworthy example of what happens when men experience God’s presence directly. An immediate recognition of one’s own unholiness occurs, along with the corresponding feeling of inadequacy. Like Isaiah, we must all undergo a self-conscious and voluntary purging upon approaching God more closely than in this present life.
Few doctrines are clearer in Scripture than the necessity of absolute holiness in order to enter heaven. On this, Protestants and Catholics are in total agreement. Therefore, the fundamental disagreement on this subject is: how long does this purification upon death take? Certainly, it cannot be logically denied as a possibility that this purging might involve duration.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
St. Francis de Sales elucidates the implications of this statement of Christ:
St. Francis de Sales:
Origen, St. Cyprian, St. Hilary, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine say that the way which is meant in the whilst thou art in the way [while you are going with him to court] is no other than the passage of the present life: the adversary [accuser] will be our own conscience, . . . as St. Ambrose expounds, and Bede, St. Augustine, St. Gregory [the Great], and St. Bernard. Lastly, the judge is without doubt Our Lord . . . The prison, again, is . . . the place of punishment in the other world, in which, as in a large jail, there are many buildings; one for those who are damned, which is as it were for criminals, the other for those in Purgatory, which is as it were for debt. The farthing, [penny] . . . are little sins and infirmities, as the farthing is the smallest money one can owe.
Now let us consider a little where this repayment . . . is to be made. And we find from most ancient Fathers that it is in Purgatory: Tertullian, [11] Cyprian, [12] Origen, [13] . . . St. Ambrose, [14] St. Jerome [15] . . . Who sees not that in St. Luke the comparison is drawn, not from a murderer or some criminal, who can have no hope of escape, but from a debtor who is thrown into prison till payment, and when this is made is at once let out? This then is the meaning of Our Lord, that whilst we are in this world we should try by penitence and its fruits to pay, according to the power which we have by the blood of the Redeemer, the penalty to which our sins have subjected us; since if we wait till death we shall not have such good terms in Purgatory, when we shall be treated with severity of justice. [16]
Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
If sins can be pardoned in the “age to come” (the afterlife), again, in the nature of things, this must be in purgatory. We would laugh at a man who said that he would not marry in this world or the next (as if he could in the next — see Mark 12:25). If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be. Accordingly, this interpretation was held by St. Augustine, [17] St. Gregory the Great, [18] Bede, [19] and St. Bernard, [20] among others.
Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations. (read Luke 16:1-13 for the context)
St. Francis de Sales:
Abraham’s bosom — The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death . . . The bosom of Abraham (the common Father of all the faithful) was the place where the souls of the saints, and departed patriarchs, waited the arrival of their Deliverer. It was thither that Jesus went after his death; as it is said in the Creed, he descended into hell, to deliver those who were detained there, and who might at Christ’s ascension enter into heaven (see 1 Peter 3:19, Matthew 8:11) . . .
[on 1 Peter 3:19-20]: These spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned . . . In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation. [23]
At the very least, these passages prove that there can and does exist a third (and intermediate) state after death besides heaven and hell. Thus, purgatory is not a priori unthinkable from a biblical perspective (as many Protestants casually assume). True, the Hebrew Sheol (Greek Hades — netherworld) is not absolutely identical to purgatory (both righteous and unrighteous go there), but it is nevertheless strikingly similar. Sheol is referred to frequently throughout the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 32:22, 2 Samuel 22:6, Psalm 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8, Proverbs 9:18, 23:14, Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,15, Ezekiel 31:16-17, 32:21,27). In Jewish apocalyptic literature (in the few hundred years before Christ), the notion of divisions in Sheol is found (for instance, in Enoch 22:1-14).
25 Bible Passages on Purgatory
This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen [4] and St. Ambrose, [5] who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (see also Isaiah 1:25-26)
St. Francis de Sales, the great Catholic apologist of the 16th century, commented on this verse as follows:
This purgation made in the spirit of judgment and of burning is understood of Purgatory by St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of the City of God, chapter 25. And in fact this interpretation is favoured by the words preceding, in which mention is made of the salvation of men, and also by the end of the chapter, where the repose of the blessed is spoken of; wherefore that which is said — “the Lord shall wash away the filth” — is to be understood of the purgation necessary for this salvation. And since it is said that this purgation is to be made in the spirit of heat and of burning, it cannot well be understood save of Purgatory and its fire. [6].
Isaiah 6:5-7 And I said:”Woe is me! for I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.“
This passage is a noteworthy example of what happens when men experience God’s presence directly. An immediate recognition of one’s own unholiness occurs, along with the corresponding feeling of inadequacy. Like Isaiah, we must all undergo a self-conscious and voluntary purging upon approaching God more closely than in this present life.
Few doctrines are clearer in Scripture than the necessity of absolute holiness in order to enter heaven. On this, Protestants and Catholics are in total agreement. Therefore, the fundamental disagreement on this subject is: how long does this purification upon death take? Certainly, it cannot be logically denied as a possibility that this purging might involve duration.
Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.
St. Francis de Sales elucidates the implications of this statement of Christ:
It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. One may say that the pains will be suffered in this world; but St. Augustine and the other Fathers understand them for the other world. And again may it not be that a man should die on the first or second offence which is spoken here? And when will such a one pay the penalty due to his offence? . . . Do then as the ancient Fathers did, and say that there is a place where they will be purified, and then they will go to heaven above.
Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (see also Luke 12:58-59)
St. Francis de Sales:
Origen, St. Cyprian, St. Hilary, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine say that the way which is meant in the whilst thou art in the way [while you are going with him to court] is no other than the passage of the present life: the adversary [accuser] will be our own conscience, . . . as St. Ambrose expounds, and Bede, St. Augustine, St. Gregory [the Great], and St. Bernard. Lastly, the judge is without doubt Our Lord . . . The prison, again, is . . . the place of punishment in the other world, in which, as in a large jail, there are many buildings; one for those who are damned, which is as it were for criminals, the other for those in Purgatory, which is as it were for debt. The farthing, [penny] . . . are little sins and infirmities, as the farthing is the smallest money one can owe.
Now let us consider a little where this repayment . . . is to be made. And we find from most ancient Fathers that it is in Purgatory: Tertullian, [11] Cyprian, [12] Origen, [13] . . . St. Ambrose, [14] St. Jerome [15] . . . Who sees not that in St. Luke the comparison is drawn, not from a murderer or some criminal, who can have no hope of escape, but from a debtor who is thrown into prison till payment, and when this is made is at once let out? This then is the meaning of Our Lord, that whilst we are in this world we should try by penitence and its fruits to pay, according to the power which we have by the blood of the Redeemer, the penalty to which our sins have subjected us; since if we wait till death we shall not have such good terms in Purgatory, when we shall be treated with severity of justice. [16]
Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
If sins can be pardoned in the “age to come” (the afterlife), again, in the nature of things, this must be in purgatory. We would laugh at a man who said that he would not marry in this world or the next (as if he could in the next — see Mark 12:25). If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be. Accordingly, this interpretation was held by St. Augustine, [17] St. Gregory the Great, [18] Bede, [19] and St. Bernard, [20] among others.
Luke 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations. (read Luke 16:1-13 for the context)
St. Francis de Sales:
To fail, — what is it but to die? — and the friends, — who are they but the Saints? The interpreters all understand it so; whence two things follow, — that the Saints can help men departed, and that the departed can be helped by the Saints . . . Thus is this passage expounded by St. Ambrose, and by St. Augustine. [21] But the parable Our Lord is using is too clear to allow us any doubt of this interpretation; for the similitude is taken from a steward who, being dismissed from his office and reduced to poverty [16:2], begged help from his friends, and Our Lord likens the dismissal unto death, and the help begged from friends unto the help one receives after death from those to whom one has given alms. This help cannot be received by those who are in Paradise or in hell; it is then by those who are in Purgatory. [22]
Luke 16:19-31
Abraham’s bosom — The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death . . . The bosom of Abraham (the common Father of all the faithful) was the place where the souls of the saints, and departed patriarchs, waited the arrival of their Deliverer. It was thither that Jesus went after his death; as it is said in the Creed, he descended into hell, to deliver those who were detained there, and who might at Christ’s ascension enter into heaven (see 1 Peter 3:19, Matthew 8:11) . . .
[on 1 Peter 3:19-20]: These spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned . . . In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation. [23]
At the very least, these passages prove that there can and does exist a third (and intermediate) state after death besides heaven and hell. Thus, purgatory is not a priori unthinkable from a biblical perspective (as many Protestants casually assume). True, the Hebrew Sheol (Greek Hades — netherworld) is not absolutely identical to purgatory (both righteous and unrighteous go there), but it is nevertheless strikingly similar. Sheol is referred to frequently throughout the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 32:22, 2 Samuel 22:6, Psalm 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8, Proverbs 9:18, 23:14, Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,15, Ezekiel 31:16-17, 32:21,27). In Jewish apocalyptic literature (in the few hundred years before Christ), the notion of divisions in Sheol is found (for instance, in Enoch 22:1-14).
25 Bible Passages on Purgatory
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Lots of lies, do not a truth make.
God is not a man, He doesn't lie.
His Word is Faithful and True Forever.
Trust God.
Have faith in Jesus. He is Good. (Perfect)
God is not a man, He doesn't lie.
His Word is Faithful and True Forever.
Trust God.
Have faith in Jesus. He is Good. (Perfect)
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