Pre-trib Rapture=any day now! Are you ready to meet Jesus?

faroukfarouk

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When does Daniel rise according to Daniel 12?
at the end of the days

So, do you think he missed an earlier resurrection of the just/church/saints?
no

There will only be one resurrection to life.
It will include the Christians dying for their faith in
Jesus Christ during the time of the great tribulation.
I don't see Israel and the church as the same.
 
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parousia70

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I don't see Israel and the church as the same.
You may not, but God Does.
As far as God is concerned, the Church is the Believing Remnant of Israel. They did not cease to be Israel simply because they obeyed God and the prophets and Followed Israels Messiah.

The Church is Believing Israel, the Nazarene Sect of Biblical Judaism.

The Church is the Faithful Remnant of Israel, and has been Israel all along.
The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12;Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

At Mt. Sinai, Yahweh said Israel was the "kingly priesthood," the "holy nation," the "peculiar people of God" (Ex 19:5-7). And St. Peter claims that the Christians are this very people: "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people...Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God" (1 Peter 2:9-10).

Also, Israel was known as "the circumcision" (Eph 2:11; Rom 15:8; Rom 4:9; Rom 3:30), for that was their physical mark of distinction. St. Paul explicitly says that unbelieving Jews were "false circumcision," and states that the Christian sect was the true circumcision: "Beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:2-3).

The first members of the body of Christ were all obedient Israelites. They, and ONLY They, were obedient Israel, and they went out and taught that the followers of Jesus were the true sons of Abraham.

Scripture teaches that The "church" is, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, Israel and is Jewish (not gentile) in its origin:
Acts 7:38
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers

Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
[Note that this "church" exists prior to any gentile inclusion, thus is believing Israel]
 
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faroukfarouk

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You may not, but God Does.
As far as God is concerned, the Church is the Believing Remnant of Israel. They did not cease to be Israel simply because they obeyed God and the prophets and Followed Israels Messiah.

The Church is Believing Israel, the Nazarene Sect of Biblical Judaism.

The Church is the Faithful Remnant of Israel, and has been Israel all along.
The "church" is not something separate from Israel, but rather is the remnant of the faithful within Israel.

Acts 7:38 speaks of "the church in the wilderness" with Moses. Likewise, Isaiah pointed out that in times of Israel's great apostasies, the faithful of the nation were reduced to a tiny remnant of elect ones (Isaiah 1:8-9). So it was in the first century, where Paul identifies himself as an example of the faithful remnant (Romans 11:1-5).

Moreover, the apostles continually say that the members of the Nazarene sect are the true elect ones (2 Tim 2:10; Col 3:12;Galatians 6:15-16; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 2:9-10 ). The Church is the faithful ones of Israel.

At Mt. Sinai, Yahweh said Israel was the "kingly priesthood," the "holy nation," the "peculiar people of God" (Ex 19:5-7). And St. Peter claims that the Christians are this very people: "Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people...Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God" (1 Peter 2:9-10).

Also, Israel was known as "the circumcision" (Eph 2:11; Rom 15:8; Rom 4:9; Rom 3:30), for that was their physical mark of distinction. St. Paul explicitly says that unbelieving Jews were "false circumcision," and states that the Christian sect was the true circumcision: "Beware of the false circumcision; for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:2-3).

The first members of the body of Christ were all obedient Israelites. They, and ONLY They, were obedient Israel, and they went out and taught that the followers of Jesus were the true sons of Abraham.

Scripture teaches that The "church" is, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, Israel and is Jewish (not gentile) in its origin:
Acts 7:38
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers

Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
[Note that this "church" exists prior to any gentile inclusion, thus is believing Israel]
The church's birthday was in Acts 2, Pentecost.

It's fair to acknowledge that from an interpretational perspective our view profoundly differ.
 
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parousia70

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The church's birthday was in Acts 2, Pentecost.

So what Church is this then?:
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (Acts 7:38)

It's fair to acknowledge that from an interpretational perspective our view profoundly differ.

So, in your "interpretational perspective", did the people mentioned here cease being Israel at the time they were added "to the Church"?

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47)
 
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keras

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I don't see Israel and the church as the same.
Parousia gave an excellent and scripturally correct post in #264.
Sure; the Jewish State of Israel and the established church are different entities.
But from God's perspective, those ethnic Israelis who are Messianic Jews and true born again Christians, people from every race, nation and language, all constitute the Israelites of God.
Note the spelling of Israelis; citizens of the State of Israel and of God's Israelite people.

New Testament teaching is absolutely clear: For those in Christ, there is now no separation between Jew and Gentile. Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 3:24-26 +
It is only those who wishfully think they will be raptured to heaven, while the Jews pass thru the Great Tribulation, who must add to their wrong belief by saying that God has Two Peoples and Two Promises.
 
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-Luca

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Why fight against the rapture?? Think! Who hates the Truth of the rapture more than satan?? Satan wants you here for him to destroy and kill.
Luke 21:36New King James Version (NKJV)
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass.
Thank you for sharing this, God bless
 
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-Luca

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Don't worry man, that thing can be heated with tea lights. My wood heater is mainly for boiling water. And I agree with you, without the Lord nobody could stand a chance. At the 5th trumpet, Lucifer and a couple billion of his demonic angels will be released from the abyss. We are going to have to spend the last 5 months with these guys. They don't need sleep, they aren't afraid of -40C temperatures and they have X ray night vision which can find me wherever I go.

I can take care of what I can take care of, but demonic angels and black bears are in the Lord's department.

(As long as I've got the Seal of God on my forehead)

I'll follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
Hi can you shed some light on how you said that Lucifer and his demons would roam free? I always thought that they were already free roaming the Earth.
 
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BABerean2

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I don't see Israel and the church as the same.

Which Israel are you referring to here?

Are you talking about Israel of the Flesh or Israel of the Promise, from Romans 9:6-8?

The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13. It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.
(GW)
.
 
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Dave Watchman

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Hi can you shed some light on how you said that Lucifer and his demons would roam free? I always thought that they were already free roaming the Earth.

Actually, I got a little worried about it reading my own post. So I probably should tone it down for now. But from what ever extrapolation we can surmise from the Script, something strange, something very different is going to happen at the fifth trumpet. And it's not going to be a couple Billion demonic angels, more like 200 million or 200 thousand thousands. So many that when they're let out, they look like smoke coming out from a furnace door when it's opened. But they're going to be mad and running out of time. And that's the good news, time will be almost up for them.

You're right about them roaming around free on the earth right now in spirit, but physically they're trapped in the abyss. They can't get out of the spirit realm to physically bother the flesh and blood folks like us. Jesus said that a house divided against itself cannot stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? This is a hint that the demonic angels can only have one boss, one king, the angel king from the abyss. Some people get tripped up on this because the Bible calls him by a hundred different names.

Anyways, something bad is going to happen at the 5th trumpet, which I think will be during the last 5 months of the tribulation. These dudes and their king are going to be able to manifest themselves in our realm. And to make matters worse, they're going to be allowed, given the power, to physically harass some of us. At first they'll only be allowed to terrorize the wicked. At that time men will desire to die, but death will flee from them.

But then at the 6th trumpet something worse happens. It appears that four of Lucifer's very best angels are released to kill a third of mankind.

From Revelation 9:

"And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

"They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

"Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

"The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number.
 
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n2thelight

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  1. Before His ascension, Christ prophesied the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Because of this prophecy, Christ could not come until His words had been fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Thus from His ascension to Pentecost, Christ's return was not imminent. (Lk. 24:49).
  2. Before His ascension, Christ prophesied that Peter would grow old; he would then be captured and finally be martyred for his testimony for Him. Because of this prophecy, Christ could not return as long as Peter was alive. Peter had to grow old, be captured, and finally be martyred to fulfill the words of Christ. All the Christians knew that as long as Peter was alive, Jesus could not come. Peter died around A.D. 67. Thus from the ascension to Peter's death (67 A.D.), Christ's return was not imminent. (John 21: 18-19; 1 Pet. 1:13-15).
  3. Having established that Christ's coming was not imminent until Peter's death (A.D. 67), none of Paul’s or Peter's Epistles can have any references to an imminent return of Christ because all of the epistles were written before A.D. 67 and both men knew the prophecies of Christ, and that His coming was not possible at that time. The epistles of Paul and Peter make no reference to an imminent return of Christ.
  4. Before His ascension, Christ prophesied that His church would be planted in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, and then to “the ends of the earth.” This prophecy was not fulfilled by the early church and has yet to be fully fulfilled. Until the church has been planted in every tribe, tongue and nation, Christ's coming is not imminent. (Acts 1:8; Matt. 28:19, 20; MK. 16:15; Lk. 24:7f; Rev. 7:9).
  5. Before His ascension, Christ prophesied the total destruction of Herod's temple by foreign armies. The temple was not destroyed until A.D. 70. Thus from His ascension to the destruction of Herod's temple (A.D. 70), Christ's return was not imminent. (Matt. 24:1; Mk. 13:1; Lk. 21:5, 6).
  6. Before His ascension, Christ prophesied certain signs to precede His return. These signs were not present in the early church and are not fully present right now. They are still future. Thus until all these signs are clearly and fully fulfilled, Christ's coming is not imminent. (Matt. 24-, Mk.13, Lk. 21).
  7. After His ascension, Christ prophesied that the apostle Paul would go to Rome and preach His gospel. Until Paul got to Rome, Christ could not come. Thus from His ascension to the time when Paul got to Rome (A.D. 61), Christ's return was not imminent. (Acts 23:11; 27:24). None of Paul’s epistles written before he got to Rome could possibly teach that Christ's return was imminent.-
  8. After His ascension, Christ prophesied that the church at Smyrna would pass through a great persecution in the future. He challenged them to suffer faithfully. Until the Smyrna church had been through this trial, Christ could not come. Thus from His ascension to the trial of the church at Smyrna, Christ's coming was not imminent. (Rev. 2:10).
  9. Christ in various parables connected His church and His coming with the end of the age. Until all the Biblical Prophecies leading up to the end of the age, and the prophecies concerning the end of the age have been fulfilled, Christ cannot come. Thus Christ's return cannot be imminent. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43, 47-50; 25:14-30)
 
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VARZR

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Ezekiel 38-39 Gog / Magog war which sets up abomination of desolation, nuclear war, and rapture happen very very close to the same time.

I see nowhere in the Bible to support a rapture before at least some of the latter days events happen. I don't however think the Church is around for the wrath.

I personally think the USA gets wrapped up fighting a war elsewhere in the world (North Korea perhaps) and while the cat is away the islamic mice will play and try and take Israel while we are unable to stop them. This causes Israel to use the "Samson option" this freaks Russia and China with nukes going off so close and trigger wider global nuke war between the super powers.
 
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user385

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I heard someone talk about a dragon drawing a third part of the stars to the earth. I think this person was referring to a dragon in Revelation 12. They said they thought it would take the dragon about one third of a year to draw the stars to the earth. This person said that as the earth moves it appears that the sun is casting down stars.

I do not know whether any of the following is true or accurate:

I heard someone say that on November 16th Jupiter entered the constellation Virgo. They said that there was a change in dispensations from the law being given on the day of Pentecost and that Pentecost is the only day when God sounded His trumpet. I do not know if that is true. I think they said that Jupiter leaves virgo on May 25th and on September 9th. They might have said that in Exodus 19 there was a trumpet blown on the day of Pentecost and that there was a change in dispensations on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts. I think they said that the first fruits harvest is brought in at Pentecost and that the first fruits are sealed on Pentecost. He said that on years with no extra month you can go back 1335 days from Pentecost and you get the feast of trumpets.

Some people believe that Song of Solomon 2 tells readers that the rapture will occur in the Spring time.
 
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BABerean2

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I heard someone talk about a dragon drawing a third part of the stars to the earth. I think this person was referring to a dragon in Revelation 12. They said they thought it would take the dragon about one third of a year to draw the stars to the earth. This person said that as the earth moves it appears that the sun is casting down stars.

I do not know whether any of the following is true or accurate:

I heard someone say that on November 16th Jupiter entered the constellation Virgo. They said that there was a change in dispensations from the law being given on the day of Pentecost and that Pentecost is the only day when God sounded His trumpet. I do not know if that is true. I think they said that Jupiter leaves virgo on May 25th and on September 9th. They might have said that in Exodus 19 there was a trumpet blown on the day of Pentecost and that there was a change in dispensations on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts. I think they said that the first fruits harvest is brought in at Pentecost and that the first fruits are sealed on Pentecost. He said that on years with no extra month you can go back 1335 days from Pentecost and you get the feast of trumpets.

Some people believe that Song of Solomon 2 tells readers that the rapture will occur in the Spring time.




Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

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