Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone else but Satan...

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
I said it because the pronoun "he" is not related to authority...it's related to gender 100 percent of the time.

Then why is God called a he?

The devil is a man because he is created, like we are.

Jezmeyah · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I agree, this could only refer to satan.

ewq1938 said:
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

This is speaking about the man, for why would satan (at that time in heaven) be talking about ascending into heaven?
Only a man on earth, with outrageous ambitions, would claim that he could ascend to heaven in comparison to pagan gods that were in that mythical religious belief, be said to reside there.

Which means that "the mount of the congregation', and, the 'sides of the North' I speculate, would be the earthbound geological location of the pagan temple of the gods.

ewq1938 said:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This primarily would be addressing satan, and secondarily the man who is influenced by satan.

ewq1938 said:
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Clearly, addressing the man.

ewq1938 said:
Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

That he campaigned in war, took prisoners and did not let the oppressed go free.

ewq1938 said:
1966

01966 heylel {hay-lale'}
from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m
AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

OT:1966
heylel (hay-lale'); from OT:1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:

The star referred to here is Venus. The planet named after one of the key pagan gods.

ewq1938 said:
KJV - lucifer (the king of Babylon).

This indicates that the king of Babylon is associated with the Venus god.

ewq1938 said:
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

This context refers to satan himself pretending to be a source of enlightenment- as the New Agers realm of thought and belief., the modern day version of the ancient pagan gods mythology.

ewq1938 said:
The Hebrew word for Satan's original name is Heylel,

In it's fullness, Kokab (star) Heylel (shine) Shachar (dawn).

ewq1938 said:
Lucifer in the English tongue. Lucifer in Latin originates from two words, "Lux" and "Ferre" or "Lux-ferre" (from lux, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"). When we speak of Lucifer in English we are talking about the one known as Heylel in the Hebrew. The same individual with a name spanning a few, if not more, languages.

What are the examples in those foreign languages?

ewq1938 said:
Lucifer was created "full of wisdom" meaning very smart, "perfect in beauty" and he "sealed up the sum" which means he was created as a "full pattern" which is thought to mean "perfect", with nothing lacking. But, all those things together caused Lucifer to think he was greater than he really was so he sought to have a greater status.

In other words, he was full of God's wisdom but greatly corrupted it by being full of himself.

ewq1938 said:
He then is said to want to have his throne above God's and be like the Most High but is cast down to the pit. If that doesn't remind you of what happens to Satan then nothing I say will.

The words are addressed to satan, he knows exactly what it means.

ewq1938 said:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Referring to the one most often spoken of as the anti-christ.

ewq1938 said:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

As far as he thinks that he does, for he nor anyone else can be God just by claiming that he is. So, I get why you put it in your post.

ewq1938 said:
2 Thessalonians:

"exalteth himself above all that is called God"
"shewing himself that he is God"

Isaiah:

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"

Types or foreshadows are used in scripture. It is common for someone to have done something which really points forward to someone else fulfilling a prophecy. There have been many foreshadows of Christ, and there are many of Satan. The King of Babylon may have been a real human being or might have literally been Satan, but whoever it was they did some of the things that are speaking of things Satan will do in the end times. Both tried/will try to be God but it will be Satan who will do it on a far grander, and worldwide scale.

Ezekiel 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Here another man (or possibly Satan himself by another name) is the foreshadow of the endtimes Satan. Again, the same type of thing occurring. Things repeat over and over to teach us!

There is nothing new under the sun.

ewq1938 said:
Ezekiel 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Ezekiel 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Ezekiel 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Ezekiel 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Ezekiel 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

Is there historical information of how this particular king of Babylon died?

ewq1938 said:
Remember Isaiah?

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Changing the direction away from the man, and unto satan.

ewq1938 said:
Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;

In different comparison to the mountains where the pagan temples are built.

ewq1938 said:
.. thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Sounds like a walking area between the vast area of the precious gems of heaven.. as is mentioned in another place, 'the streets of gold'.

That he had walked is quite different from saying that he does still walk there.

ewq1938 said:
How many people were in the garden of God and had been an anointed Cherub?

The point of who you mean is well made.

ewq1938 said:
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

That iniquity that certainly would not allow him to continue to be allowed in the heaven where God dwells, for he was cast out, so how could he return there?

ewq1938 said:
Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

So he can no longer walk there.

ewq1938 said:
Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

What kings behold him? Those who've been imprisoned in hell? Those who will see satan sent defeated to hell?

ewq1938 said:
Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This isnt literal lightning but a falling or shooting star. One that has that long tail of light that appears like a bolt of lightning, which also denotes how bright he is, or at least how bright he likes to think he is.

It could very well refer to the 'falling stars' out of the constellation Draco, which represents the dragon, satan.

ewq1938 said:
lightning
796

796 astrape {as-trap-ay'}

from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f

AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9

1) lightning
1a) of the gleam of a lamp

"the gleam of a lamp"

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

There is the old testament reference of bitter water which was purified when a healing tree was thrown into it. When I read of it, I wondered if such a miracle could happen to benefit the saints in the time of tribulation so that the bitter water would be made sweet for them.

ewq1938 said:
"burning as it were a lamp"

Christ himself documenting satan's future fall.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

So then, the saints shall be jointly ruling with Jesus Christ during the Millennium.

ewq1938 said:
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

I believe that "morning star" is a title many can have not just one person. It's a title that means a person is important and has authority. Lucifer was someone who was a morning star but he fell and cannot be called this any longer.

That is certainly a possible interpretation. Ha Ha on the devil that he once being called 'the morning star' that title now being given to us who are saved by having believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do hope that the devil has himself a conniption fit over it.

I however consider 'the morning star' to be an additional metaphor. The phrase 'morning star' refers to the wisdom of God which comes to a believer as a flash, quick as lightening. The apostle Peter spoke of such a thing in 2 Pet.1:19.

ewq1938 said:
Some men throughout history have matched some of these things but only one being fits them all and that is Satan, Lucifer or whatever name you want to use. Only that fallen Cherub is the one this is fully directed at.

It is primarily addressed to satan who is the source of all evil in the world, it's also addressed to the ancient king of Babylon and also addressed unto the as yet future anti-christ.

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

Jezmeyah said:
I agree, this could only refer to satan.
This is speaking about the man, for why would satan (at that time in heaven) be talking about ascending into heaven?
Only a man on earth, with outrageous ambitions, would claim that he could ascend to heaven in comparison to pagan gods that were in that mythical religious belief, be said to reside there.

Which means that "the mount of the congregation', and, the 'sides of the North' I speculate, would be the earthbound geological location of the pagan temple of the gods.
This primarily would be addressing satan, and secondarily the man who is influenced by satan.
Clearly, addressing the man.
That he campaigned in war, took prisoners and did not let the oppressed go free.
The star referred to here is Venus. The planet named after one of the key pagan gods.
This indicates that the king of Babylon is associated with the Venus god.
This context refers to satan himself pretending to be a source of enlightenment- as the New Agers realm of thought and belief., the modern day version of the ancient pagan gods mythology.
In it's fullness, Kokab (star) Heylel (shine) Shachar (dawn).
What are the examples in those foreign languages?
In other words, he was full of God's wisdom but greatly corrupted it by being full of himself.
The words are addressed to satan, he knows exactly what it means.
Referring to the one most often spoken of as the anti-christ.
As far as he thinks that he does, for he nor anyone else can be God just by claiming that he is. So, I get why you put it in your post.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Is there historical information of how this particular king of Babylon died?
Changing the direction away from the man, and unto satan.
In different comparison to the mountains where the pagan temples are built.
Sounds like a walking area between the vast area of the precious gems of heaven.. as is mentioned in another place, 'the streets of gold'.

That he had walked is quite different from saying that he does still walk there.
The point of who you mean is well made.
That iniquity that certainly would not allow him to continue to be allowed in the heaven where God dwells, for he was cast out, so how could he return there?
So he can no longer walk there.
What kings behold him? Those who've been imprisoned in hell? Those who will see satan sent defeated to hell?
It could very well refer to the 'falling stars' out of the constellation Draco, which represents the dragon, satan.
There is the old testament reference of bitter water which was purified when a healing tree was thrown into it. When I read of it, I wondered if such a miracle could happen to benefit the saints in the time of tribulation so that the bitter water would be made sweet for them.
So then, the saints shall be jointly ruling with Jesus Christ during the Millennium.
That is certainly a possible interpretation. Ha Ha on the devil that he once being called 'the morning star' that title now being given to us who are saved by having believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do hope that the devil has himself a conniption fit over it.

I however consider 'the morning star' to be an additional metaphor. The phrase 'morning star' refers to the wisdom of God which comes to a believer as a flash, quick as lightening. The apostle Peter spoke of such a thing in 2 Pet.1:19.
It is primarily addressed to satan who is the source of all evil in the world, it's also addressed to the ancient king of Babylon and also addressed unto the as yet future anti-christ.

Does that verse in Ezekiel refer to the New Jerusalem?

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Yes the disguise is fake but the point is he is not scary looking or anything but looks like a bright ie: good and holy angel.

Angels

So I've basically always argued that depictions of angels are for our benefit, and the human-looking manifestation of angels in biblical history was for our benefit in order to better relate to them. I would suspect that angels, being entirely non-corporal spirits, don't have any more "form" than the wind does--that is, by their very nature they are immaterial, non-corporeal, having neither body or form; but rather taking on appearance as God commands according to His purposes when in relation to man. Thus iconographic depictions of the holy angels would be no less literally true than, say, the holy saints literally have a nimbus glowing around their head, or the Holy Spirit literally being a dove. Icons serve to depict, in visual form, a heavenly reality.

Jezmeyah · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
Does that verse in Ezekiel refer to the New Jerusalem?

I don't want to misunderstand you, so, could you elaborate on what verse in Ezekiel that you refer to?

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

Jezmeyah said:
I don't want to misunderstand you, so, could you elaborate on what verse in Ezekiel that you refer to?

Ezekiel 28.

Jezmeyah · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
Ezekiel 28.

Ezekiel 28:14 speaks of "the holy mountain of God". It would be wise to seek a respected Bible Scholar comment concerning what that verse may be referring to. In my previous post I made a comparison of the mountain of God with the pagan temples that were always built on high places/hills.

Whereas, the New Jerusalem is now in the heaven where God resides.

According to Hebrews, it's the place where the saints and our saved loved ones reside, and where we will reside if we die before the rapture occurs. In Galatians it states that the New Jerusalem from above is 'our mother'. It's the place that Jesus refers to when he said "You must be born again from above."

And it's the four square city type that comes down from heaven to be 'the seen Jerusalem above' residing just above 'Jerusalem below' during the Millennium.

Is this answer hitting anywhere near the ballpark of your question?

StevenBelievin · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Yes he is. He is not a human man but he is very much a man. Gabriel is a man also as his name means "man of God".

No angels are not men. They are angels. Men are men, and angels are angels.

ewq1938 · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
Then why is God called a he?

Because he is a he.

The devil is a man because he is created, like we are.

So are the beasts in Rev but they aren't called men. Being created doesn't make one a he. Satan is a man because he was created as a male cherub.

Rev_4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Because he is a he.

So are the beasts in Rev but they aren't called men. Being created doesn't make one a he. Satan is a man because he was created as a male cherub.

Rev_4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

In Ezekiel the living creatures are called cherubim.

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Because he is a he.

So are the beasts in Rev but they aren't called men. Being created doesn't make one a he. Satan is a man because he was created as a male cherub.

Rev_4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

We know angels can appear as humans.

ewq1938 · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
In Ezekiel the living creatures are called cherubim.

No, the Cherubim are different.

ewq1938 · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
We know angels can appear as humans.

No, what we know is all angels look like human men. Never do we see them shapeshifting or changing forms or bodies. They look the same whether in heaven or on the Earth.

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
No, what we know is all angels look like human men. Never do we see them shapeshifting or changing forms or bodies. They look the same whether in heaven or on the Earth.

Why do fallen ones shapeshift?

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
No, the Cherubim are different.

Living creatures (Bible) - Wikipedia

Ezekiel's vision of the four living creatures in Ezekiel chapter 1 are identified as cherubim in chapter 10 [1]

ewq1938 · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
Why do fallen ones shapeshift?

Do you have a verse showing that?

Sammy-San · Apr 15, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Do you have a verse showing that?

I don't want to glorify the occult, so I won't post any information about paranormal things.

ewq1938 · Apr 15, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
I don't want to glorify the occult, so I won't post any information about paranormal things.

No scriptural support for fallen angels shapeshifting...

he-man · Apr 16, 2017

Superhero Sam said:
Then why is God called a he?

G1473 ἐγώ A primary pronoun of the first person, “I” (only expressed when emphatic): - I, me. ἐγώ, Pron. of the first person:—Ep. mostly ἐγών before vowels (so in Dor., before consonants, Epich.85, Sophr.81,
And since He created all things and what is your point?

Superhero Sam said:
The devil is a man because he is created, like we are.

Then he is already dead because God only has immortality. Newton Instead, said these conclusions were the result of his biblicism and, likely, his strong monotheism that rendered belief in supernatural evil beings a threat to the unchallenged sovereignty of the One God Whom he worshipped.
Don't you think God could just snap His fingers since He created all things and then there would be nothing?
Act 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
If all things were created for Christ, where does that leave any room for a devil?
Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him.
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
If God is ruler of everything and there is none else where does that leave a satan theory?
Deu 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
Proverbs says no one has descended from heaven but Christ.
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Where then does that leave any place for a satan to hide?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father.

Sammy-San · Apr 21, 2017

ewq1938 said:
Cherubim are Archangels....Cherub is used in the Hebrew but not Greek and Archangel is used in Greek but not Hebrew. Both denote angels that have special duties and rank. Lucifer being a morning star means an archangel and he is also called a Cherub.

The Bible doesn't call him an archangel-only Michael.

Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can't be anyone else but Satan...

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