I can't even recognize the Christianity I see

FireDragon76 · Feb 25, 2017

Lutheranism has been very good at just stabilizing my moral universe, honestly. It's very good at that. Lutheranism may not be moralistic but it does have a strong ethical focus without it being legalistic. But just ethics alone is not always enough, there's more to human life that just being right all the time.

I've been observing some things: for example, it's one thing to talk about every vocation being holy, but I'm sure you know that is a profound, mystical realization from an Orthodox or Catholic perspective, something that usually takes years of faithful living and even asceticism to realize. I wonder if sometimes the Lutheran approach isn't overly intellectualizing in this area and short circuiting personal and spiritual growth. Lutheran orthodoxy often has the right answers but if you don't walk the path to a certain extent you'll never actually be living it authentically. Maybe that's just the unspoken rule of vocation that nobody talks about. If so, there aren't always the right tools laying around for you to walk that path in Lutheran churches now days.

Me and my therapist talked about this a few days ago. I check in with a therapist about twice a month. She's an Episcopalian, so sometimes we talk about religious topics, and we were talking about my feeling of a lack of inspiration in my life, a real connection with the sacred. I never realized this was an important part of being a Christian until that discussion- it's something I'd "forgotten". In truth, it's not the Gospel in the Lutheran sense, but it's important nontheless. Now, Lutherans have a concept of God's Law, but often times its missing things that other traditions actually capture better (sort of like how Gerhard Forde described as any existential threat being Law). Indeed, Law is often thought of in exclusively moral terms, as threatening morality. Lutherans talk about God's majesty or the fear of God but the theology can erode the importance of cultivating a familiarity with that, boiling it down to just good manners, civil righteousness, etc.

This is one thing I miss from the Orthodox, and to a lesser extent, Episcopalian, churches. Especially in the Orthodox Church, they had a way of pushing your comfort zone, and nothing demonstrates this more than the concept of the Holy Fool. I am a bit of a fool myself, and well, Lutherans can be a bit too compartmentalized and buttoned up at times, it's just obvious interacting with folks at the Bible study or after church. I guess it's the midwestern "Minnesota Nice" thing deeply ingrained.

One of the things that used to inspire me was devotion to the saints. One of my favorite was Xenia of Petersburg, who was basically a homeless bag was definitely a Holy Fool. My therapist pointed out how that could be very useful for learning to see homeless people in general as sacred, and I never thought about it that way before.

Another one of my favorite saints was Maria of Paris. A divorced nun who was often late to services and smoked cigarettes. But she wrote some profound theology and died as a martyr. Definitely the sort of Christian that inspires me.

The whole practice of kissing icons really pushed my comfort zone as well, since I grew up in one of those low touch, aloof kind of midwestern families. Lots of things were counter-cultural and challenging there. I really had to grow as a person, and I miss that stuff. Orthodox spirituality is full of that ethos, of asceticism, to get you in touch with the sacred. That doesn't mean of course you will be OK once you get there, that's where you need the Gospel , but it's still an important part of being a Christian.

I am also considering reading more about Lutheran pietism, from the primary sources, like Spener and Arndt, just to get a completely different perspective on being Lutheran.

Tigger45 · Feb 25, 2017

I agree and really enjoy the Rosary, although a more Lutheran form of it. I'm guessing you've heard of pastor Jordan Cooper? I awaiting his book Christification: A Lutheran approach to theosis.

FireDragon76 · Feb 25, 2017

Tigger45 said:
.. I'm guessing you've heard of pastor Jordan Cooper? I awaiting his book Christification: A Lutheran approach to theosis.

Yes. I actually read his book that was a response to the New Perspective on Paul (I think it was called, The Righteousness of One), some time ago when I was really trying to understand justification (my pastor had to spend some time explaining what it practically meant to me, as honestly it is a bit of an alien concept to Orthodox Christianity). While he's conservative and confessional, he's not part of the LCMS (I would agree with the now departed Jaroslav Pelikan that it's just become too Baptist now days). Cooper is good at synthesizing theology from different sources.

FireDragon76 · Feb 25, 2017

I think I will check out that book on Christification by Jordan Cooper.

It's interesting you mention Cooper because he appears as the subject in one of the best Lutheran books I have read in the past year, Pastrix by Nadia Bolz-Weber. The story of how they became unlikely friends was very moving, it made me really believe in the power of God, that two people with very different perspectives could recognize something in each other and be friends in such a world as ours. I just like her authenticity and feistiness, it's so different from your typical Lutheran. Pastrix is definitely on par with some Orthodox Christian devotional/theological works I have read, perhaps even better in some ways.

pescador · Mar 15, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
I wish I could believe that.

The people at my church are great. People don't talk about who is right and wrong alot, or outrage at the latest happenings in the world as the sign of the Beast, they just shake hands, greet each other, hug. Chat a little about nonreligious topics, or occasionally, about the next Bible study. We have all types of people.. lots of white people, central european people, latino people... even a few gay people.

Here... it can be crazy. People expect absolute political and social conformity, but actually seem to tolerate the most bizarre, heretical potpourri of ideas imaginable. I think its a wierd kind of American pietism, where the only thing that matters is piety and morality. The church I go to is largely non-political, almost as a matter of the faith, and not very pietistic or moralistic.

So why are you involved with the people on the internet (present company excepted, of course 8^) ? Social media has unleashed a lot of freaks who are driven by their inner demons. They have no shalom, God's inner peace.

Stick with your real friends, your church, and this forum.

SeekerOfChrist94 · Mar 22, 2017

I really agree with this. Jesus preached love and salvation for all, not for some who fit a certain mold. The Christianity that I see today feels very fake and false.

pescador · Mar 23, 2017

SeekerOfChrist94 said:
I really agree with this. Jesus preached love and salvation for all, not for some who fit a certain mold. The Christianity that I see today feels very fake and false.

I am reading a very interesting book about Christianity in the New Testament era and how the church today bears virtually no resemblance to it. What we have is a corporate hierarchy instead of a living body of believers, church buildings that have pagan origins and require the passive congregants, after they have tithed, to sit mutely on hard benches to listen to one person preach to them from an elevated stage, occasionally broken by the singing of pre-chosen hymns. The church has turned inward as opposed to a thriving group that uses the gifts given to them by the Holy Spirit for the benefit of all. Gone is the spontaneous sharing with those in need, whether in the body of believers or not.

It is no surprise that the church today is dwindling in numbers, divided into congregations that require members to adhere to specific doctrines, instead of being a light to the world, bringing the God's love to everyone regardless of who they might be. God's love and his gift of salvation and justification are for all people.

hedrick · Mar 24, 2017

pescador said:
What we have is a corporate hierarchy instead of a living body of believers, church buildings that have pagan origins and require the passive congregants, after they have tithed, to sit mutely on hard benches to listen to one person preach to them from an elevated stage, occasionally broken by the singing of pre-chosen hymns.

Are you active in any actual church? The churches I'm familiar with have limited staff, and depend almost entirely upon members to do most of the work of the Church. The Sunday morning service can be misleading, in that it gives the impression that the pastor has a more dominant role than he or she actually has.

Of course the "pagan origins" phrase you use gives us a pretty good hint that this isn't an objective assessment.

One problem with comparisons with the early church is that we don't know what they actually did. There are hints in Paul's letters, also in Didache. Paul gives the impression of participation, but he also speaks of prophets and teachers. It's entirely possible that there was something like a sermon, perhaps someone speaking about Jesus' teachings as it had been passed on to them (the NT wouldn't have existed yet) and expounding the OT. There are signs of leaders of various kinds in the NT documents. Catholics imagine the earliest church as conducting a Catholic mass. Others imagine it like a prayer meeting, with people sharing their experiences informally. Some church historians think it was structured like a Jewish synagogue, which means there might have been someone like a rabbi, with a group of elders supervising. But the fact is, these are guesses.

pescador · Mar 24, 2017

hedrick said:
Are you active in any actual church? The churches I'm familiar with have limited staff, and depend almost entirely upon members to do most of the work of the Church. The Sunday morning service can be misleading, in that it gives the impression that the pastor has a more dominant role than he or she actually has.

Of course the "pagan origins" phrase you use gives us a pretty good hint that this isn't an objective assessment.

One problem with comparisons with the early church is that we don't know what they actually did. There are hints in Paul's letters, also in Didache. Paul gives the impression of participation, but he also speaks of prophets and teachers. It's entirely possible that there was something like a sermon, perhaps someone speaking about Jesus' teachings as it had been passed on to them (the NT wouldn't have existed yet) and expounding the OT. There are signs of leaders of various kinds in the NT documents. Catholics imagine the earliest church as conducting a Catholic mass. Others imagine it like a prayer meeting, with people sharing their experiences informally. Some church historians think it was structured like a Jewish synagogue, which means there might have been someone like a rabbi, with a group of elders supervising. But the fact is, these are guesses.

The earliest ekklesia bore no resemblance to the corporate, hierarchical church that was later instituted by Emperor Constantine and the so-called church fathers. The monumental buildings, the ornate clothing, the oratory spoken by a single person, the rituals such as incense and the odd "Lord's supper", and others were not part of the early church. Instead, groups of people met in homes and shared whatever gifts the Lord had given them: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, performing "signs and wonders", prophecy, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues and interpreting the tongues spoken, administration, helping others, etc. Everyone had the opportunity to participate directly in the meeting. There were no priests to relay God's words while everyone else (who had a gift given to them by the Holy Spirit) sat as a silent audience. The Lord's supper, a.k.a. communion, was just that: a supper where all ate together in celebration of what had been given to them by the Lord, who would one day return to them. It was not solemnly sipping wine and nibbling bread, mourning Jesus' death.

All of this is clearly stated in the New Testament. It doesn't need to be explained by church historians if it's in God's Word.

frish · Mar 27, 2017

There are over 30,000 Christian denominations. Hard to know the truth it seems.

pescador · Mar 27, 2017

frish said:
There are over 30,000 Christian denominations. Hard to know the truth it seems.

There were no denominations in the New Testament era. There was one body of Christ, although there were problems and disagreements. Paul wrote this to the ekklesia in Corinth:

"You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos, are you not mere human beings?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Denominations are built on human egos. Each thinks that it alone has the truth, but there is only one truth, Jesus Christ, and one body, the church.

mnphysicist · Mar 28, 2017

pescador said:
All of this is clearly stated in the New Testament. It doesn't need to be explained by church historians if it's in God's Word.

The early church many forms of scriptures as well as beliefs that were circulating. Consider how different things would be had Marcion or Origen's views been adopted?

Armoured · Mar 28, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
I really cannot recognize a lot of the Christianity I see on the internet and say "They practice the same faith I do". I really can't anymore.

I honestly feel more kinship with merely spiritual people or the average not particularly religious person, than I do with the average "born-again Christian". Let's be honest, they wouldn't accept me as a Christian anyways.

It's almost like religion is making people worse, how could Jesus be happy with any of this?

Sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing, by joining a church. I wake up nervous and I feel fake sometimes, like a bad dream I'll wake up from.

I sometimes pine away for just being like what the Dalai Lama says, "My religion is compassion". That would be so much more beautiful than the ugly tribalism I see. And I'm losing my sense of inner peace.

Maybe I need to get beyond the theoretical stage, and start living out what I say I believe. Perhaps I am too nice, and I just need to avoid interacting with certain people for my own sanity.

Uber literalist hardline Christians are a far greater threat to my faith than all the atheists, transgendered people, gays, evolutionists and liberals combined.

I'm fairly confident I have a handle on what Christianity is meant to be about. But in the darker moments, I worry it's the hateful, spiteful, tribalist Christians who are right, and I want no part of their religion.

mnphysicist · Mar 28, 2017

pescador said:
Denominations are built on human egos. Each thinks that it alone has the truth, but there is only one truth, Jesus Christ, and one body, the church.

This would be tricky to navigate... one time, folks might come to the conclusion all are saved past present and future being Jesus rose from the dead. The next time, maybe its taught that only the spiritual side is good, and anything of earth is of evil. Another time, Baptism could be taught as forgiveness for an individual's sins and it should be delayed to as late in life as possible. And while the above are extremes, I often see in non-denominational churches they pick and choose the denominational belief they will ascribe to for one Sunday, and then pick someone elses denominational beliefs for the next Sunday. I gotta admit it is interesting to see folks cycling between Calvin, Rome and Arminus throughout the year... Alas, this is not to say denominations are the answer... but more so, that consistency is important.

frienden thalord · Apr 12, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
I guess the juridical focus of Lutheranism is part of the flattening. On the one hand, it gives it a sharper ethical focus and makes it down-to-earth... on the other hand, it feels like God is distant and no longer someone I individually relate to, except through the Church. I've tried reading the Bible but sometimes it's like "I'm not sure how to read this".

Maybe I need to do some devotional reading within the Lutheran tradition, if such a thing exists. Last summer I read Nadia Bolz Weber's Pastrix and that was interesting, even profound in places, but from what I remember of it, it was so "flat", often about the Christian life as a series of encounters with personal inadequacy- growth is by realizing how flawed you are, i guess. The church preaching is a lot like that too. I wonder sometimes if this is psychologically healthy, sometimes it seems masochistic.

I go to a therapist who is an Episcopalian twice a month. A lot of what she says is perpendicular or even contrary to the spirituality I see in evangelical churches that focus on the message of guilt, grace, and forgiveness. She talks about the need for me to find a sense of autonomy, self-worth, and to understand when to put up healthy boundaries. She says my problem is that my sense of compassion has left me vulnerable, and I have no personal way to ritualize or process the trauma that has happened to me. Yet, I don't doubt her wisdom, even if it is different from Lutheran preaching. So it makes me wonder, am I on the right track spiritually/religiously?

Here is what GOD did for me..........a work of wonderful continued Grace.
And this will give you peace of mind............its real.
I was not raised in any church, dad was atheist, mom non practicing catholic.
But almost eleven years ago........God worked in my conscious, HE stirred me up
and immediately , all I wanted as to KNOW HIM more,
HE put me in the bible for hours............every day , even now.
IF you truly desire to know the TRUTH................READ the word.
I advice to read mainly the gosples and the letters of the apostles
and yes revelations too. DO not be discouraged at all............if you don't know very much
at first............JUST SEEK GOD , read the word.
I don't want to religion bash.........so just bear with this next advice.
most all your denominations follow mans doctrines..........some truths some lies
But the bible..........my friend............that is the most beautiful book I have ever read.
such a hunger for the truth. You wont understand much at first
so Do not be discouraged.
My advice , since I have read many different bibles
IS the king james versoin. I know some words are big, but a dictionary will help.
Mainly. SEEK GOD, Focus on JESUS sayings.........they are the most beautiful
FOR CHRIST , his sayings FULLFILL the law
THEY show us HOW to live....and THE SPIRIT will magnify and remind our heart
of HIS sayings.
you wont undersand everything at first...........but just keep praying , keep seeking
and keep reading.
also, you don't need man to interpret it.
BUT since by grace , if you do have any questions about what you read.
I will help you. and anyone else can test what I say .
God put me in the bible for a GOOD reason......
man has complicated everything............BUT GODS word......IT makes it clear.
now as I said , you wont understand everything
also , my advice is YOU DO not need mans physcology to counsel
you. You are correct , it often contradicts . but man, his mind cannot grasp the spiritual
ONLY the SPIRITUAL MIND of CHRIST can.
JESUS sayings are truly meat for the soul.........like it cleanses the mind.
I truly hope and pray you take this humble advice.

frienden thalord · Apr 12, 2017

HOW to read the bible........just read it like a book.
no need to skip here or their............just read it.
and again start in the gosples and read all the other letters ffrom the aposltes
and just keep reading............by grace I have........and my mind is very clear.
the way is very clear.

PeaceJoyLove · Apr 12, 2017

Armoured said:
Uber literalist hardline Christians are a far greater threat to my faith than all the atheists, transgendered people, gays, evolutionists and liberals combined.

I'm fairly confident I have a handle on what Christianity is meant to be about. But in the darker moments, I worry it's the hateful, spiteful, tribalist Christians who are right, and I want no part of their religion.

I so agree with that statement, Armoured. We are called to love just as HE loved us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. That does not mean we condone things spoken against in the Bible, but we must love the person. Each and every one. Vengeance is the LORD's...we love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We speak TRUTH based and backed by scripture. Nothing more. Nothing less. It is prudent to say when sin is sin, but never be hateful or violent toward the person. By doing good, we heap coals upon their heads...we reveal the LOVE God by our actions. The spirit gives us words that speak LIFE. The letter of law brings death...

The mind of man always wants to fill in the blanks of what they don't understand...instead of seeking HIM and thoroughly reading all scriptures. HE calls us...tells us the end of our faith is love from a pure heart and faith unfeigned. Stick to scripture and calling out to the LORD, therein is The Way. It is our map to HIS Holy Hill.

FireDragon76 · Apr 13, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
I so agree with that statement, Armoured. We are called to love just as HE loved us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. That does not mean we condone things spoken against in the Bible, but we must love the person. Each and every one. Vengeance is the LORD's...we love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We speak TRUTH based and backed by scripture. Nothing more. Nothing less. It is prudent to say when sin is sin, but never be hateful or violent toward the person. By doing good, we heap coals upon their heads...we reveal the LOVE God by our actions. The spirit gives us words that speak LIFE. The letter of law brings death...

Frankly, I don't see this love among many Christians in the US. I am especially bothered by the politics of Christians here, and how they seem to be focused on taking away peoples rights. I am convinced on the Day of Judgment, many Christians are going to have a rude awakening.

We can't even fully debate the things that bother me on Christian Forums.

PeaceJoyLove · Apr 13, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
Frankly, I don't see this love among many Christians in the US. I am especially bothered by the politics of Christians here, and how they seem to be focused on taking away peoples rights. I am convinced on the Day of Judgment, many Christians are going to have a rude awakening.

We can't even fully debate the things that bother me on Christian Forums.

Oh by the grace of God the things HE reveals to us...by HIS spirit, not the mind of man.

When we compare scripture and the visible church, oh how far apart they are! I can't help but here the scripture 'come out of her'. Somewhere along the way church as deviated from the true church spoken of by the Apostles and in the book of Acts.

"Narrow is THE WAY (gate) and few there be that TRULY find it. His spirit alive within a person promises specific and certain things...freedom from sin..power to overcome AND to cause us to truly See HIS Kingdom and blind to the world ( worldliness) if that is not happening in the depths of our being then I ask, is that person walking in the flesh or after the flesh?

We can say with our lips a million times we believe, but if His promises are not true on our life, then that is unbelief that God has the power to cause us to walk as JESUS walked...and in HIM was no sin...we are called to be holy...not to remain sorry sinners. That is bondage to sin and denying the power HE promises to all who TRULY seek AND FIND HIM.
You do well, Fire dragon. May the peace and grace of our LORD be with you. HE promises peace. Believe it.

Strivax · Apr 15, 2017

Armoured said:
Uber literalist hardline Christians are a far greater threat to my faith than all the atheists, transgendered people, gays, evolutionists and liberals combined.

I'm fairly confident I have a handle on what Christianity is meant to be about. But in the darker moments, I worry it's the hateful, spiteful, tribalist Christians who are right, and I want no part of their religion.

Don't worry about that one jot. Christianity, at root, is a love affair with God and His world. Do not, for one moment, think that those who do not love have any idea at all what the religion is about, or why Jesus died as He did, or how God relates to us, believers and unbelievers alike. And Christianity is also a journey, away from prejudice, towards enlightenment and unconditional compassion. For our more judgmental brethren, simply think of them as those with some distance to travel, yet. And be confident in your faith.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I can't even recognize the Christianity I see

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