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Monk Brendan

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In the end... one of is is right or both are wrong. That isn't being lukewarm... that is avoiding being dogmatic. :)

Do you expect me to believe that?
 
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Monk Brendan

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If you really want to obey the instructions of Jesus, as told in this account, you would do it every year, every time you observe Passover. The whole thing, not some simple caricature of it. No Christian ever does that.

Excuse me? Some Roman parishes are able to do so more than one time a day, not just once a year.“For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.” I Cor 11:26

Some Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches can do so--depending on the number of clergy within the facility.
 
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Monk Brendan

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They can never get code from the DNA. You need to have had a human mother & father to have a codeable DNA.

Forgive me, but Jesus borrowed His flesh from Mary, so any DNA would be Mary's DNA
 
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wilts43

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The Bible itself does not usually tell you when it is being figurative & when literal. The reader does that.
When Protestants say Eucharistic texts are figurative they are interpreting scripture according to their tradition.
But the vast, overwhelming, tradition of Christian belief is that these texts are literal. ie. All the Christian Church from Paul until Zwingli, and the vast majority still.
Also the Churches with direct Apostolic succesion (and christ's teaching authority) have been faithful to this as well.
Let an ex-baptist writer explain it......
 
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Panevino

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There is a basic rule: "Take the Bible literally, except when it is obviously not." Jesus said "I am the door..." Ps 91:4 says "He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust." Heb 12:25 says "Our God is a consuming fire." These and many others are all obviously not to be taken literally.
This ignores a bigger picture that the flesh and blood relate to Jesus as a divine Lamb of God and referrance as our Passover. And that during the Passover a lamb is sacrificed and eaten. Nor is there a parallel picture of the life of the flesh being in the blood.
There is no similar parralel for a door, vine etc....
1 Corinthians 5:7

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
 
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W2L

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When Protestants say Eucharistic texts are figurative they are interpreting scripture according to their tradition.
Not really. Im a protestant and i came up with that conclusion myself, by reading scripture. I bet many other protestants have as well.
 
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wilts43

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"It is the Spirit that quickenth (makes alives), the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life." Jn 6:63 This would apply to the meaning of the Eucharist.
If you listen to (Ex-Baptist writer) Steve Ray's "Real Presence" YouTube video
He makes the following points.
Jesus had been talking about "eating My flesh". When the scandalised followers leave he refers to "The flesh" ie To them not being able to appreciate a deeper reality with unspiritual minds... ie with carnal, (rational? ) minds. As support see John 18:15
"14Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16But even if I do judge,"
John uses "The flesh" to mean peoples' inability to open up there commonsensical-minds to deeper realities.

Also when the doubters press He ups the anti, changing the Greek word for "eat" to a more grisly visceral word for masticating.
If your tradition can take such insistent words of scripture figuratively then nothing can be literal.
It's really odd for a Catholic......when discussing with Protestants, they criticise Catholics for ignoring the plain meaning of scripture here and there (we don't) but they dissolve the strongest possible literal words of Christ Himself?
 
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wilts43

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So are you saying that the Lord is promoting canabalism?
The earliest Christians were accused of precisely that!
If you want to use that word, with its connotations, consider if that is not refusing to open up the fleshly-mind (see previous post).

Have you heard?
"You are what you eat" .....We eat the Body of Christ to become The Body of Christ.
Have you ever loved someone and said "You look good enough to eat"
What is kissing?
The dying boys on that airplane in the Andes said to the others to eat them.
OK we can't literally normally do this, or want to.
But God has prepared us for a great reality & a great mystery here!
However grisly the mind-of-the-flesh sees it, there is a vast intimacy in this offering and in the communication of Christ's very essence & life to us.
 
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Righttruth

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This "supposition" also appears in Luke's Gospel, BTW. Do you believe this "supposition" was inerrantly inspired by the Holy Spirit? Anamnesis is not mere remembrance, any way.

It is well known that those verses have not been found in many old manuscripts of Luke. They may be later insertions. Both Paul and Luke were not witnesses in the Last Supper.
 
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Episaw

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Guys:

Can anyone cite the Bible verse that says that the Eucharist in the Lords supper is symbolic? Catholics believe it is literally Christ's body and blood. Protestants say it is a symbol. Can anyone show where the Bible says it is a symbol?

The so-called eucharist is nowhere to be found in scripture in any shape or form. Before his death, Jesus was celebrating the Jewish Passover meal which was celebrated ONCE a year. It was to celebrate their deliverance from captivity in Egypt. Jesus words were indicating that their deliverance was now going to come through him because he was the Messiah.

When he said to do this in remembrance of me he was saying any future Passover meals were to celebrate his messiahship. Because they were Jews, before and after his death and resurrection, it would have been foreign to have a ritual every week, month or one that was not a meal.

As the New Testament church was known as "The Way" and a sect of Judaism, they did not stop being Jews, that is why they continued to meet in the temple.

The other passage that is totally misinterpreted is Paul's dissertation to the Corinthian Church.

In 1 Corinthians 11:20 it talks about not eating the Lord's supper. The word supper means dinner, the chief meal. There is no indication it means a religious ceremony involving a biscuit and sip of wine.

In 1Co 11:21 it says "For in eating every one taketh before [the] other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken."

Can anyone tell me how you get drunk on a sip of wine?

It is obvious if you care to see it that Paul was instructing the Corinthian church about their behaviour in the evening meal. It was obvious that the people brought food and wine for everyone to share but some were ignoring others and eating and drinking their own food and drink rather than sharing it. Some were even getting drunk as a result.

Verse 22 indicates that some who came could not contribute to the meal for various reasons that is why sharing was so essential. In doing what they were doing, they were shaming those who could not contribute.

And in verse 29 when it talks about the Lord's body, it is referring to the body of Christ, not the Lord's physical body and when it talks about eating and drinking it shows it was referring to a meal, not a religious ritual. By ignoring the Lord's body (the church) they were eating and drinking damnation to themselves.

The end result in some cases as we see in verse 30 is sickness and death. So do tell me, how is a person going to end up like this eating a cracker and a sip of wine before someone else or without regard to someone else?

In verse 33 it talks about coming together to eat. That word means to eat meat.

Paul finishes up by saying if you are hungry, eat at home before you come to the meal. This means that the whole chapter is about conduct for the church during a communal meal, where everyone who could shared their provisions with each other and if you couldn't you were still welcome as there would be enough for everyone and you did not eat on your own at the meal just because you brought something or were hungry. You waited till everyone was present and could enjoy the meal together regardless.

Those who are rusted onto religious ritual have chosen to ignore two-thirds of what this chapter is saying in favour of putting their own slant on it to give the church authority over the people.

In church history studies it is a known fact that when the Roman Catholic Church dominated, they introduced this eucharist thing and said it had to have a priest in charge of it because of the mysterious aspect of it which they invented so they could control the masses (pun intended).

I could say a lot more as I have done a thorough study of life in the New Testament church, consulting over 40 authors on the subject, including catholic, but that will suffice for the time being until everyone who disagrees with me usually without any evidence whatsoever come out of the woodwork.
 
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Episaw

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Perhaps among Protestants... but the early church, which in the first century was predominately Jewish, would have viewed drinking blood and eating the flesh of another as being pagan to the core and against God's commandments. Even if you are anomian (against/without law) you still accept the Acts 15 letter which says to refrain from blood. How can God inspire a people to repeat an OT command to refrain from blood AFTER messiah said to drink his blood? God is not the author of confusion.
A very good point brother.
 
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Episaw

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I don't think so.... maybe I am.... but if the RCC position (which I am not attacking) says it is literally his blood when we drink it... I am simply asking, "is it?" I say no... I say it "literally represents his blood" just as the salt water on a Seder table "literally represents" the tears of the Israelites but are in fact not their tears... they are literally tap water and salt. :) I am not being western here, I am addressing a point that the spirit of the RCC position on the wine would mean the cup of salt water used in the Seder is literally... somehow... their tears.

I used to teach in Catholic Schools and I asked a teacher who was a devout catholic "what does the blood of Jesus taste like when you drink it at the eucharist?

His reply was "It tastes like wine."

I replied "I think someone is having a lend of you."
 
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Episaw

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I think whatever our views on the Eucharist are, we ought to trust in its promise and joyfully hold it in high esteem on account of it being instituted and commanded by Christ Jesus himself.

Can you show me in scripture where Jesus commanded that the church holds a religious ceremony, called it the eucharist, and indicated it had to have a priest in charge of it and it was to consist of his blood and physical body?
 
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Episaw

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The early church believed it was literally His body and blood. There are Protestant pastors that converted to Catholicism from the study of what the early church believed. One of them, Scott Hahn, said that it was only the heretics in the early church that believed it was a symbol
No, they didn't because they did not have a weekly "eucharist." They were Jews so they had the ANNUAL Passover meal but being followers of THE messiah, they celebrated the freedom that his life and death gave them.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Not really. Im a protestant and i came up with that conclusion myself, by reading scripture. I bet many other protestants have as well.
Good, by God's Spirit actually,
and
JESUS stated clearly in God's WORD as well.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Can you show me in scripture where Jesus commanded that the church holds a religious ceremony, called it the eucharist, and indicated it had to have a priest in charge of it and it was to consist of his blood and physical body?
Or, as is the case , how about a prohibition - it is forbidden, to re-crucify JESUS daily ..... or did God's WORD change ?
 
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Daniel9v9

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Can you show me in scripture where Jesus commanded that the church holds a religious ceremony, called it the eucharist, and indicated it had to have a priest in charge of it and it was to consist of his blood and physical body?

It sounds like what you have in mind is the the Roman Catholic Transubstantiation, which means "change of substance", whereby the essence of the bread and wine changes into the physical body and blood of Christ. This is not what I believe, for I believe the Eucharist to be incomprehensible, but Transubstantiation is the Roman Catholic explanation of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Likewise, Catholics teach that the Eucharist can only be consecrated by a priest. Again, here Protestants may differ from our Catholic friends, for we profess that it's apprehended by faith and in the promise of God alone. However, it is the office of the Church to preach the Word of God and administer the sacraments, but not in an exclusive or Levitical way.

It may be helpful to consider these questions:
1. Who instituted the Eucharist?
The Eucharist is not of human origin, but divine origin. The Church has received it from the hands of the Son of God; it was ordained by our Lord Jesus Christ. Though the sacrament has many names,"Eucharist" simply means "thanksgiving", which is the same breaking of the bread the apostles and the early church did - and that we still do. The breaking of the bread was not merely recommended, but, out of love, commanded by our Lord that we should do it. It's a holy covenant and final will that Christ instituted before his crucifixion.

2. For what reason was the Eucharist instituted?
The holy sacraments, instituted by God, consists of something earthly, and of something heavenly; by which act God not only seals the promise of grace, peculiar to the Gospel, that is, the gracious forgiveness of sins, but also through the elements truly imparts to everyone who partakes of the sacraments, heavenly possessions, which he promised at the institution of the sacraments, and which are appropriated to believers for their salvation. Only through faith are the sacraments are rightly used. It's even written that whoever participates in the Eucharist in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord, which is a severe offense.

For reference, see: Matthew 26:26-28 John 6:51-57 Acts 2:42 Acts 2:46-47 Acts 20:7 1 Corinthians 10:16-22 1 Corinthians 11:20-34

The style of the Eucharist often vary because it's adiaphora (things not commanded nor forbidden in Scripture), which is only done in a particular way for the purpose of good order in the service. Just as some churches have contemporary music and style, while others have traditional music and style - likewise, the Eucharist may be presented differently, though it is the same breaking of the bread as ever.

Quick food for thought - if the early church in Acts were devoted to the Eucharist, why are people so down on it in our day?
 
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wilts43

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Can you show me in scripture where Jesus commanded that the church holds a religious ceremony, called it the eucharist, and indicated it had to have a priest in charge of it and it was to consist of his blood and physical body?

By "in scripture". Do you mean in "The Bible"?
When Jesus, or the NT writers refer to "Scripture" they refer to the Jewish OT! What do you mean by it?
You cannot possibly mean a rigourous selection of certain writings we call "New Testament", made and promulgated by the authority of the bishops of the Catholic Church four centuries into the life of that Church.
If you don't accept the Apostolic succesion (and authority) of these bishops why would you accept them selecting some of the new writings of the time, calling them "inspired", and adding them to the Jewish OT?
------------------
Where "in scripture" can you show me where Jesus commands his disciples "to write" (bits & bobs) and then gather them into a book, invent printing, teach literacy, & read it for themselves.....because that's all they need?

And where is "Trinity" or "Rapture"

Your stance seems to be that Christ did not "intend" the Catholic Church.
I will come to that......
But he did not intend "A man & his Bible" church.
He could write (in the sand ) but he never wrote a book!!!. He did not tell his Apostles "Go, write.." He did not get out his tools & build the Printing Press. He did not wait for printing.... to be born.
But he did found a Church (on Peter, his royal steward) Matt 16:18 And on his Apostles (At Pentecost) giving them authority to Teach, Heal, forgive sins etc.
So we come to the primitivist assumptions........
Why do you assume Christ would describe every single thing His Kingdom would do with His authority?

That the Tree God planted should still look like a seed.

(Matt 13:31)

"Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man planted in his field. 32Although it is the smallest of all seeds, yet it grows into the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree".

The CC is that same Church founded on Peter. In growing from tiny seed to largest of trees don't expect no development.
But it has Christ's guarantees.
What kind of narrative has it that Christ's own Church fails!!!.....and is rescued 1500 years later by various men who quickly disagree amongst themselves. It's completely implausible & unbiblical.
This early Catholic Church was "led into all truth" about the Eucharist from the start. The NT fulfils the OT; and the OT is fully pregnant with prefigures of The Mass/Eucharist. Abraham-Isaac/Melchizedek/Manna/Passover/Harvest-offering/Bread-of-the-presence/Todah-Sacrifice.

But, if you are open to seeing it, the last of the prophets, Malachi prophesised this................

1"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.

This is fulfilled as literally at any moment Christ's Sacrifice is offered and made present throughout the Gentiles and the whole world under the appearance of bread.
 
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Panevino

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W2L said:
Not really. Im a protestant and i came up with that conclusion myself, by reading scripture. I bet many other protestants have as well.
Good, by God's Spirit actually,
and
JESUS stated clearly in God's WORD as well.
Even Paul and Barabas had to defer to the Church for clarification.
They knew that they couldn't confidently resolve it on their own, they sought to ensure unity, see Acts 15.

Also seeking guidance was the Ethiopian in Acts 8:29-
 
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wilts43

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I presume the Protestant non-believers in the Real Presence say "The Our Father."
In the original Greek "our daily bread" uses an adjective "epiousious"......(the "daily" translation is accepted as wrong).
This epiousious is found nowhere else in scripture or Greek Literature!
Linguistic parsing gives us something like "substance from above bread" or "supersubstantial bread" or "superesential bread". (Not far off "transubstantiated"!)
This allies with the Jewish expectation that the Messiah would bring a new manna from Heaven
2 Baruch 29:8 "And it will happen at that time that the treasury of manna will come down again from on high, and they will eat of it in those years because these are they who will have arrived at the consummation of time."

With the first Moses,....the first covenant/the first passover/the first exodus,...God feeds His people with bread-from-heaven (Manna) and flesh from heaven (The quails in the evening).
The Second Moses (Messiah/Christ) fulfils and amplifies all these prefigures.
And it was essential to eat the lamb at the passover....or your firstborn would die. The death of the lamb did not suffice.
The food God gives us (Himself) is essential. Before dismissing it.....think of what you may be missing....God's greatest gift to us....Himself.
 
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