What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

Greg Merrill

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Well, I chose to be Catholic because I was convinced by the historicity of the Catholic Church that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

When I think of the Catholic rosary, I think of Mt 6:7 where Jesus says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
When I think of how Catholics call their priests "father" I think of Mt 23:8 where Jesus says "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." The Biblical Jesus doesn't sound like the one that founded the Catholic Church to me. There are a number of other things that Jesus said that sound very different than what Catholicism teaches.
 
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DeaconDean

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When I think of the Catholic rosary, I think of Mt 6:7 where Jesus says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
When I think of how Catholics call their priests "father" I think of Mt 23:8 where Jesus says "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." The Biblical Jesus doesn't sound like the one that founded the Catholic Church to me. There are a number of other things that Jesus said that sound very different than what Catholicism teaches.

I have to agree with you there.

How many prayers do some Catholics recite time and time again.

"Hail Mary full of grace" for example.

I never heard Jesus once pray to Abraham, or Moses either.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Ave Maria

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When I think of the Catholic rosary, I think of Mt 6:7 where Jesus says "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
When I think of how Catholics call their priests "father" I think of Mt 23:8 where Jesus says "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." The Biblical Jesus doesn't sound like the one that founded the Catholic Church to me. There are a number of other things that Jesus said that sound very different than what Catholicism teaches.

Well, I am not allowed to debate in here but I will give you a link which addresses this objection to the Rosary:

Do Catholics Pray "Vain Repetitions?" | Catholic Answers

God bless,
Ave Maria
 
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OzSpen

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Gifts that are said to have ceased are referred to as "sign gifts" by theologians (tongues, interpretation of tongues, "gifts" of healings, "gifts" of miracles, the "gift of knowledge, prophecy." 1Co 13:8 gives examples of these gifts ceasing when it lists "prophecies, tongues, and knowledge."

Greg,

We can't take 1 Cor 13:8 in isolation. That verse alone does not state WHEN those gifts will pass away. However, 1 Cor 13:12 (NIV) gives more insight as to when that will happen: 'For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.'

Key words in this latter verse are 'now' and 'then'. The 'then is when 'we shall see face to face' AND when 'I shall know fully, even as I am fully known'.

Even with the complete canon that is available to us in many languages, we do not 'know fully'. That will happen when 'we shall see face to face'.

It is eisegesis to impose on the text that 'perfect' means the completion of the canon when not a word is said in the context about this. This is a typical approach of cessationists who seem to be embarrassed by the continuing supernatural gifts of the Spirit of 1 Cor 12-14, for which Paul gives ample instruction for regulation and doing things 'decently and in order' (1 Cor 14:40).

You state:
Gifts such as teaching, ministry, exhortation, mercy, and giving are listed among the gifts in Ro 12:7,8 that are usually recognized as gifts that still are in use today.

You seem to forget that some of these gifts are also recorded in 1 Cor 12: 28-30 in which the supernatural gifts are included, namely: gifts of teachers, helping and administrating.

You are not likely to convince me of the cessationist position by not dealing with the exegesis in context of 1 Cor 13:8-12. I was fed the cessationist line for many years as a Christian. When I did my own research, I found the continuation of the full range of the gifts of the Spirit is what the Bible teaches.

Oz
 
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DeaconDean

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Well, I am not allowed to debate in here but I will give you a link which addresses this objection to the Rosary:

Do Catholics Pray "Vain Repetitions?" | Catholic Answers

God bless,
Ave Maria

Ok, I'll bite.

You are correct that it does mean, among other things: "to stammer; hence, to babble; to use vain repetitions"

Your article also says:

"But does Jesus mean to exclude the possibility of devotions like the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet which repeat prayers? No, he does not. This becomes evident when in the very next verses of Matthew 6, Jesus says:

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus gave us a prayer to recite! But notice the emphasis on living the words of the prayer! This is a prayer to be recited, but they are neither “empty phrases” nor “vain repetitions.”

I disagree in that it is a "model". Because in Luke 11:1-18 we have the same thing repeated.

Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” 2 He said to them, “When you pray, say: “‘Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.’

And even your own article warns:

"This does not mean that there is not a danger of mindlessly repeating the Rosary or other such devotions. There is. We must always stay on guard against that very real possibility."

I am aware that I left the last sentence off purposely because as a Baptist, I do not accept:

"the great devotions Holy Mother Church provides for our spiritual nourishment."

John Gill comments here:

"After this manner therefore pray ye,....

That is, in such a concise and short way, without much speaking and vain repetitions; making use of such like words and expressions as the following: not that Christ meant to pin down his disciples to these express words, and no other; for this prayer is not a strict form, but a pattern of prayer, and a directory to it, both as to brevity, order, and matter; for we do not find the disciples ever making use of it in form; and when it is recited by another Evangelist, it is not in the selfsame words as here; which it would have been, had it been designed as an exact form. Besides, Christ does not bid them pray in these very words, but "after this manner"; somewhat like this: not but that it is very lawful to use the very express words of this prayer in any of the petitions here directed to; and which indeed were no other than what good people among the Jews did frequently make use of; and which were collected and singled out by Christ, as what he approved of, in distinction from, and opposition to, other impertinent expressions, and vain repetitions, which some used; as will appear by a particular consideration of them.

Our Father which art in heaven.

This may be looked upon as the preface and introduction to the prayer, and regards the object of it, and his character, which is an epithet of God, often to be met with in Jewish writings, and particularly in their prayers; for thus they (k) say, "Mymvbv wnyba, "our Father which art in heaven", show mercy "to us, because thy great name is called upon us."

Again (l), let the prayers and the requests of all Israel be received by , "their Father, which is in heaven". They seem to have a regard to this prayer, when they apply that passage in Proverbs 3:35 "shame shall be the promotion of fools", to the nations of the earth, who, they say (m), "do not consider the glory of the law; and how, say they, "our Father which art in heaven", hear our voice, have mercy on us, and receive our prayer?''

So in confessions, thanksgivings, and sacrifices of praise, they required, and looked upon it, as the main thing, for a man to direct his heart , "to his Father which is in heaven (n)."

By "father", our Lord means the first person in the Trinity, who is the Father of all men by creation, and of the saints by adoption; who are to address him in prayer under the character of "our Father", partly to command a reverential fear of him, and partly to secure boldness and liberty of speech before him; and also to express fiducial confidence in him, faith of interest in him, and relation to him; which arises from some experience of his paternal love, and requires the witnessings of the Spirit of adoption; and inasmuch as the direction is not to say "my Father", but "our Father"; it shows that we should pray for others as well as for ourselves, even for all the dear children of God. It is a rule (o) with the Jews,
"that a man ought always to join himself in prayer with the church;'' upon which the gloss says, "let him not pray the short prayer , "in the singular, but in the plural number", that so his prayer may be heard.''

The object of prayer is further described by the place of his residence, "in heaven"; not that he is included in any place, but that the heaven of heavens is the place where he most eminently displays his glory: and this may teach us to look upwards in prayer, and seek those things which are above; and also, that this earth, on which we dwell, is not our native country, but heaven is, where our Father dwells.

Next follows the first petition, hallowed, or sanctified be thy name; so the Jews (p) in their prayers, "Kmv vdqty, "let thy name be hallowed", or "sanctified by us", O Lord our God, before the eyes of all living.'' And very often (q), "let his great name be magnified and sanctified in the world, which he hath created according to his will.''

Source

John Gill also comments on Luke 11 saying:

"The doxology there used, and the word "Amen", are here omitted. Some of the petitions in this prayer are not delivered in the very same words as they are in Matthew. The three first petitions are word for word the same; for though the third petition is different in our translation, it is the same in the original. The fourth and fifth vary: in Matthew the fourth is, "give us this day our daily bread"; here in Luke, "give us day by day our daily bread." The fifth in Matthew is, "and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"; here, "and forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us". And these verbal variations, though the sense is the same, together with the omission of the doxology, and the word "Amen", show, that this prayer was not designed to be an exact form, and to be so used, but as a directory of prayer."

Source

And personally, in the 40 years I've been a Baptist, I can only remember a handful of times, perhaps 4 or 5, where "The Lords Prayer" was recited in church.

But here we are, back to where we started.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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OzSpen

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Ok, I'll bite.

You are correct that it does mean, among other things: "to stammer; hence, to babble; to use vain repetitions"

Your article also says:

"But does Jesus mean to exclude the possibility of devotions like the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet which repeat prayers? No, he does not. This becomes evident when in the very next verses of Matthew 6, Jesus says:

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus gave us a prayer to recite! But notice the emphasis on living the words of the prayer! This is a prayer to be recited, but they are neither “empty phrases” nor “vain repetitions.”

I disagree in that it is a "model". Because in Luke 11:1-18 we have the same thing repeated.

Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” 2 He said to them, “When you pray, say: “‘Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.’

And even your own article warns:

"This does not mean that there is not a danger of mindlessly repeating the Rosary or other such devotions. There is. We must always stay on guard against that very real possibility."

I am aware that I left the last sentence off purposely because as a Baptist, I do not accept:

"the great devotions Holy Mother Church provides for our spiritual nourishment."

John Gill comments here:

"After this manner therefore pray ye,....

That is, in such a concise and short way, without much speaking and vain repetitions; making use of such like words and expressions as the following: not that Christ meant to pin down his disciples to these express words, and no other; for this prayer is not a strict form, but a pattern of prayer, and a directory to it, both as to brevity, order, and matter; for we do not find the disciples ever making use of it in form; and when it is recited by another Evangelist, it is not in the selfsame words as here; which it would have been, had it been designed as an exact form. Besides, Christ does not bid them pray in these very words, but "after this manner"; somewhat like this: not but that it is very lawful to use the very express words of this prayer in any of the petitions here directed to; and which indeed were no other than what good people among the Jews did frequently make use of; and which were collected and singled out by Christ, as what he approved of, in distinction from, and opposition to, other impertinent expressions, and vain repetitions, which some used; as will appear by a particular consideration of them.

Our Father which art in heaven.

This may be looked upon as the preface and introduction to the prayer, and regards the object of it, and his character, which is an epithet of God, often to be met with in Jewish writings, and particularly in their prayers; for thus they (k) say, "Mymvbv wnyba, "our Father which art in heaven", show mercy "to us, because thy great name is called upon us."

Again (l), let the prayers and the requests of all Israel be received by , "their Father, which is in heaven". They seem to have a regard to this prayer, when they apply that passage in Proverbs 3:35 "shame shall be the promotion of fools", to the nations of the earth, who, they say (m), "do not consider the glory of the law; and how, say they, "our Father which art in heaven", hear our voice, have mercy on us, and receive our prayer?''

So in confessions, thanksgivings, and sacrifices of praise, they required, and looked upon it, as the main thing, for a man to direct his heart , "to his Father which is in heaven (n)."

By "father", our Lord means the first person in the Trinity, who is the Father of all men by creation, and of the saints by adoption; who are to address him in prayer under the character of "our Father", partly to command a reverential fear of him, and partly to secure boldness and liberty of speech before him; and also to express fiducial confidence in him, faith of interest in him, and relation to him; which arises from some experience of his paternal love, and requires the witnessings of the Spirit of adoption; and inasmuch as the direction is not to say "my Father", but "our Father"; it shows that we should pray for others as well as for ourselves, even for all the dear children of God. It is a rule (o) with the Jews,
"that a man ought always to join himself in prayer with the church;'' upon which the gloss says, "let him not pray the short prayer , "in the singular, but in the plural number", that so his prayer may be heard.''

The object of prayer is further described by the place of his residence, "in heaven"; not that he is included in any place, but that the heaven of heavens is the place where he most eminently displays his glory: and this may teach us to look upwards in prayer, and seek those things which are above; and also, that this earth, on which we dwell, is not our native country, but heaven is, where our Father dwells.

Next follows the first petition, hallowed, or sanctified be thy name; so the Jews (p) in their prayers, "Kmv vdqty, "let thy name be hallowed", or "sanctified by us", O Lord our God, before the eyes of all living.'' And very often (q), "let his great name be magnified and sanctified in the world, which he hath created according to his will.''

Source

John Gill also comments on Luke 11 saying:

"The doxology there used, and the word "Amen", are here omitted. Some of the petitions in this prayer are not delivered in the very same words as they are in Matthew. The three first petitions are word for word the same; for though the third petition is different in our translation, it is the same in the original. The fourth and fifth vary: in Matthew the fourth is, "give us this day our daily bread"; here in Luke, "give us day by day our daily bread." The fifth in Matthew is, "and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"; here, "and forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us". And these verbal variations, though the sense is the same, together with the omission of the doxology, and the word "Amen", show, that this prayer was not designed to be an exact form, and to be so used, but as a directory of prayer."

Source

And personally, in the 40 years I've been a Baptist, I can only remember a handful of times, perhaps 4 or 5, where "The Lords Prayer" was recited in church.

But here we are, back to where we started.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

I found your post way too long to wade through. You lost me after 3 paragraphs.

In future, could you please post no more than 3-4 shorter paragraphs to assist comprehension?

Blessings,
Oz
 
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Dave-W

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The first example is in 1 Timothy 5:18 (NIV): 'For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages”'. The first quotation is from Deut 25:4 and the second quotation is from Luke 10:7. Paul seems to have known of the existence of Luke's Gospel when he wrote to Timothy, considering it to be Scripture.
Paul is NOT giving a direct quote in his 2nd reference, Rather he is quoting a general principle expressed in multiple places in the Torah:

Leviticus 19:13
You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning.

Deuteronomy 24:14
You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

Deuteronomy 24:15
You shall give him his wages on his day before the sun sets, for he is poor and sets his heart on it; so that he will not cry against you to the LORD and it become sin in you.

So the apostle WAS accurately teaching that the OT scripture taught that.
 
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Big Drew

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You have already gotten into it with your unsupported assertions.
Relax, I'm on your side. Just told myself a long time ago I wouldn't have this debate anymore, and I had a moment of weakness that I edited. Lol
 
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DarthNeo

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Sure it has been said, I didn't read the entire thread, but when the Apostles spoke in tongues, it was a KNOWN language, everyone heard in THEIR language...

If speaking in tongues was ever a gift, it, along with all other gifts, have ceased...
 
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Greg Merrill

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If the true gift of tongues, healings, miracles, and knowledge still existed, how come we never hear of people that can speak in a known language other than their own language, without having studied to learn it. How come we never hear of the gift of healings being used other than in religious services, say at hospitals.
We sure see the abuse of these things, quackery, and demon possessed heathens speaking in tongues, and "so-called" healings of hearing, headaches, and other things that can't really be substantiated in religious services.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Nope, not getting into it...
Don't blame you. Most never convince anyone from the other side to come over to their side. People seem to just want to believe their side, regardless of the other sides arguments, and stick to it.
 
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2win

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Ok, I'll bite.

You are correct that it does mean, among other things: "to stammer; hence, to babble; to use vain repetitions"

Your article also says:

"But does Jesus mean to exclude the possibility of devotions like the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet which repeat prayers? No, he does not. This becomes evident when in the very next verses of Matthew 6, Jesus says:

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus gave us a prayer to recite! But notice the emphasis on living the words of the prayer! This is a prayer to be recited, but they are neither “empty phrases” nor “vain repetitions.”

I disagree in that it is a "model". Because in Luke 11:1-18 we have the same thing repeated.

Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.” 2 He said to them, “When you pray, say: “‘Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread. 4 Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.’

And even your own article warns:

"This does not mean that there is not a danger of mindlessly repeating the Rosary or other such devotions. There is. We must always stay on guard against that very real possibility."

I am aware that I left the last sentence off purposely because as a Baptist, I do not accept:

"the great devotions Holy Mother Church provides for our spiritual nourishment."

John Gill comments here:

"After this manner therefore pray ye,....

That is, in such a concise and short way, without much speaking and vain repetitions; making use of such like words and expressions as the following: not that Christ meant to pin down his disciples to these express words, and no other; for this prayer is not a strict form, but a pattern of prayer, and a directory to it, both as to brevity, order, and matter; for we do not find the disciples ever making use of it in form; and when it is recited by another Evangelist, it is not in the selfsame words as here; which it would have been, had it been designed as an exact form. Besides, Christ does not bid them pray in these very words, but "after this manner"; somewhat like this: not but that it is very lawful to use the very express words of this prayer in any of the petitions here directed to; and which indeed were no other than what good people among the Jews did frequently make use of; and which were collected and singled out by Christ, as what he approved of, in distinction from, and opposition to, other impertinent expressions, and vain repetitions, which some used; as will appear by a particular consideration of them.

Our Father which art in heaven.

This may be looked upon as the preface and introduction to the prayer, and regards the object of it, and his character, which is an epithet of God, often to be met with in Jewish writings, and particularly in their prayers; for thus they (k) say, "Mymvbv wnyba, "our Father which art in heaven", show mercy "to us, because thy great name is called upon us."

Again (l), let the prayers and the requests of all Israel be received by , "their Father, which is in heaven". They seem to have a regard to this prayer, when they apply that passage in Proverbs 3:35 "shame shall be the promotion of fools", to the nations of the earth, who, they say (m), "do not consider the glory of the law; and how, say they, "our Father which art in heaven", hear our voice, have mercy on us, and receive our prayer?''

So in confessions, thanksgivings, and sacrifices of praise, they required, and looked upon it, as the main thing, for a man to direct his heart , "to his Father which is in heaven (n)."

By "father", our Lord means the first person in the Trinity, who is the Father of all men by creation, and of the saints by adoption; who are to address him in prayer under the character of "our Father", partly to command a reverential fear of him, and partly to secure boldness and liberty of speech before him; and also to express fiducial confidence in him, faith of interest in him, and relation to him; which arises from some experience of his paternal love, and requires the witnessings of the Spirit of adoption; and inasmuch as the direction is not to say "my Father", but "our Father"; it shows that we should pray for others as well as for ourselves, even for all the dear children of God. It is a rule (o) with the Jews,
"that a man ought always to join himself in prayer with the church;'' upon which the gloss says, "let him not pray the short prayer , "in the singular, but in the plural number", that so his prayer may be heard.''

The object of prayer is further described by the place of his residence, "in heaven"; not that he is included in any place, but that the heaven of heavens is the place where he most eminently displays his glory: and this may teach us to look upwards in prayer, and seek those things which are above; and also, that this earth, on which we dwell, is not our native country, but heaven is, where our Father dwells.

Next follows the first petition, hallowed, or sanctified be thy name; so the Jews (p) in their prayers, "Kmv vdqty, "let thy name be hallowed", or "sanctified by us", O Lord our God, before the eyes of all living.'' And very often (q), "let his great name be magnified and sanctified in the world, which he hath created according to his will.''

Source

John Gill also comments on Luke 11 saying:

"The doxology there used, and the word "Amen", are here omitted. Some of the petitions in this prayer are not delivered in the very same words as they are in Matthew. The three first petitions are word for word the same; for though the third petition is different in our translation, it is the same in the original. The fourth and fifth vary: in Matthew the fourth is, "give us this day our daily bread"; here in Luke, "give us day by day our daily bread." The fifth in Matthew is, "and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors"; here, "and forgive us our sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us". And these verbal variations, though the sense is the same, together with the omission of the doxology, and the word "Amen", show, that this prayer was not designed to be an exact form, and to be so used, but as a directory of prayer."

Source

And personally, in the 40 years I've been a Baptist, I can only remember a handful of times, perhaps 4 or 5, where "The Lords Prayer" was recited in church.

But here we are, back to where we started.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Thanks Dean for putting all that information on here; I think that is very helpful for all who are looking for information on the truth.
 
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OzSpen

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Paul is NOT giving a direct quote in his 2nd reference, Rather he is quoting a general principle expressed in multiple places in the Torah:

Leviticus 19:13
You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man are not to remain with you all night until morning.

Deuteronomy 24:14
You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

Deuteronomy 24:15
You shall give him his wages on his day before the sun sets, for he is poor and sets his heart on it; so that he will not cry against you to the LORD and it become sin in you.

So the apostle WAS accurately teaching that the OT scripture taught that.

Agreed, but notice the language of these OT verses you have cited. None of these 3 OT verses gives the precise quote as found in 1 Tim 5:18.

But you miss the point of what Luke 10:7 (ESV) teaches and affirms: 'And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house'. This is the language repeated in 1 Tim 5:18 (ESV): 'For the Scripture says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." And in another place, "Those who work deserve their pay!"'

So, the NT does quote from other places in the NT and call them Scripture.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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If the true gift of tongues, healings, miracles, and knowledge still existed, how come we never hear of people that can speak in a known language other than their own language, without having studied to learn it. How come we never hear of the gift of healings being used other than in religious services, say at hospitals.
We sure see the abuse of these things, quackery, and demon possessed heathens speaking in tongues, and "so-called" healings of hearing, headaches, and other things that can't really be substantiated in religious services.

Greg,

Here you have committed an Appeal to Ridicule Fallacy.

Your assumption is incorrect biblically that the gift of tongues in the church today needs to have people speak in a known language.

That happened on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16). The gift of tongues, requiring the gift of interpretation is quite different from what happened at Pentecost: 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit' (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). Therefore, in 1 Cor 14, they cannot be speaking in a known language.

Therefore for you to require this approach to tongues is unbiblical: 'how come we never hear of people that can speak in a known language other than their own language, without having studied to learn it' (your statement).

Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 14 is for intelligibility in the church and that means his preference for prophecy, unless the gift of tongues is accompanied by the gift of interpretation.

One faulty Chevy doesn't make all Chevys faulty. One or 100 extreme uses of the gift of tongues, healings, etc, does not stop us from seeking the genuine.

Remember what Paul promoted: 'I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you' (1 Cor 14:18 NIV). We should all 'eagerly desire spiritual gifts' (1 Cor 14:1), including the gift of tongues and interpretation.

You're beating a dead horse with your lack of biblical support for what you are promoting.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Sure it has been said, I didn't read the entire thread, but when the Apostles spoke in tongues, it was a KNOWN language, everyone heard in THEIR language...

If speaking in tongues was ever a gift, it, along with all other gifts, have ceased...

Darth,

I Cor 14:2 (NIV) refutes your view: 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'.

Oz
 
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Don't blame you. Most never convince anyone from the other side to come over to their side. People seem to just want to believe their side, regardless of the other sides arguments, and stick to it.

Greg,

I was a hard-headed cessationist who was captured by the Spirit's intervention through careful reading of 1 Cor 12-14 and seeking God's gifts: 'Earnestly desire spiritual gifts' (1 Cor 14:1).

Oz
 
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Ave Maria

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Again, I am not trying to debate here but I personally do not see the Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet as vain repetitions. The prayers are not in vain at all. They definitely have a purpose. Repeating the prayers has the purpose of giving us something to say with our mouths while we meditate on the mysteries of the Gospel. The Rosary, is, after all, a meditation on the Gospel.
 
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Darth,

I Cor 14:2 (NIV) refutes your view: 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit'.

Oz

Even so, the gifts have ceased.

There are also verses that say IF someone spoke in tongues, someone had to be able to translate immediately...
 
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