Ethics in a Nutshell?

Strivax

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So I made this post elsewhere, but I would like more opinions:

Uh huh. You're quite right. I have my own scheme of virtue and vice, and at root it's quite simple. Virtue is measured in width and depth by the spread of love one has for others, and the degree of the sacrifices one is prepared to make to secure the well-being of those one loves. Vice is measured in width and depth by the number of people one harms in pursuit of selfish ends, and the degree of those harms.

Though it borrows from both traditional Christianity and utilitarianism, it's an easy enough model to comprehend, that works for me, and so I commend it to you.

I'm interested to know if you have your own nutshell schemes of ethics, and what they are, and whether you have any criticisms of mine, I could learn from.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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AACJ

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Treat others as you, yourself, desire to be treated ...
The so called "Golden Rule" is not a sufficient standard to live ours lives by. If it was, then Christ would not have needed to die and no one would have a working knowledge of Jesus Christ nor how to be saved, nor the nature of man. God's Word/commands reveal the nature of God, man and creation.

In addition, the Golden rule provides no will nor power to fulfill its own standard, and there are scenarios where the Golden rule, by itself, fails to be an adequate guide/standard, such as suicide by cop. Only in the life and power of God's Word/Spirit does the Golden Rule work. It was not meant by Christ to be a standard applied apart from His Word and work on the cross.

Also the so-called Silver Rule is too passive.

The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. Psa 119:130
 
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JackRT

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Micah 6:6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God.
 
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Monna

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"and the degree of the sacrifices one is prepared to make to secure the well-being of those one loves."

As long as:
- those one loves includes your enemies, maybe. Jesus taught us that loving your friends (and family) is something even the wicked do. He calls us to a higher ethic.
- the love you speak of is active and pragmatic, not just theoretical and academic. Love is not equivalent to the absence of hate or dislike. It takes the initiative in bulding relationships and reconciliation.

How do you actually "measure" virtue and vice? If you have no feasible way of measuring them quantitatively, then your definition remains fairly academic and not very useful. Are virtue and vice meant to be measured? What is the benchmark when you refer to breadth and depth? Is 4 units breath plus 6 units depth more ethical than 4 units breath and 5,5 units depth?

In Jesus' terms (and the Law of Moses) the benchmark is to "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matt 22:37). Deut 6:5 also says "with all your strength." Plus of course, love your neighbour as yourself. Anything less doesn't count. If you've brokem one commandment you have broken the whole law. These are pretty high standards. But why settle for less? Would it be ethical to do so? ;)

If you're wanting to make points with God, even this won't add up. "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Is. 64:6)
 
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Strivax

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As long as:
- those one loves includes your enemies, maybe. Jesus taught us that loving your friends (and family) is something even the wicked do. He calls us to a higher ethic.

Indeed, the ideal Jesus calls us to is to love our neighbour as ourselves, by which I assume He means everyone else, saints and sinners alike.

How do you actually "measure" virtue and vice? If you have no feasible way of measuring them quantitatively, then your definition remains fairly academic and not very useful. Are virtue and vice meant to be measured? What is the benchmark when you refer to breadth and depth? Is 4 units breath plus 6 units depth more ethical than 4 units breath and 5,5 units depth?

It's a good point. How does one 'measure' the quality of a painting, or of a political policy, or of a bottle of wine, or of a newspaper article? I think you can't; that quality is something you appreciate, not take a ruler to. And, for virtue, you need to be 'adequate' in your own spiritual development, to appreciate quality in others in respect of their own virtue. And becoming adequate takes practice... If you you truly want to know virtue, you need to be virtuous yourself, or you just won't have the required cognitive equipment.

As for depth v width, why, I think someone who destroys 72 innocent lives, and devastates many more, with chemical weaponry, is clearly less virtuous than someone else who works to end the conflict. I don't think, given the current state of the world, we really need to get more specific than that.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Follow the COMMANDS to LOVE!

LOVE COMMANDED!!...not polite requests!!

a. #1 = Love God + #2 = Love Neighbor AS SELF...the BIG TWO IN ORDER!...Luke 10: 25-29: Matthew 22: 37-40; Mark 12:30

b. Love "ONE ANOTHER" (believers) as I have loved you...John 13:34-35; John 15; 1 John 4

c. Love Enemies..Sermon on the Mount...the HARD ONE...Matthew 5: 43-48

d. ABIDE in God's Love..1 John; John 15

e. If you Love me, FOLLOW/ (serve) me...Matthew 16: 24-27; John 12:26

f. If you Love me, OBEY, TRUST etc...and ...Get the "good news" out!..Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15

The GOLDEN RULE "to treat others as I want to be treated" (Matt. 7:12)...is good MAN-to-MAN ADVICE...not a COMMAND!

Matthew 6 (NASB)
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth,
where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart(spirit) will (is certain to) be also.
 
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Goodbook

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So I made this post elsewhere, but I would like more opinions:



I'm interested to know if you have your own nutshell schemes of ethics, and what they are, and whether you have any criticisms of mine, I could learn from.

Best wishes, Strivax.
Well I dont know yours, mine would be seeking the Lord and his righteousness. So that would involve asking God about what is right and lookng up His Word in the Bible.
 
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Goodbook

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One of the spiritual gifts is discernment, sometimes you need to ask God to discern effectively as its a spiritual matter not what we think, its what God thinks. He knows and weighs the spirits. He is Holy, we often just see through a glass, darkly. But if we know Him, we can be in the light.
 
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Strivax

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Seek the ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS of the Bible,
Ignore the relative and changing morals and ethics of Man in this world.

I just can't agree with all of this. Whilst I will readily admit morals, and ethics, (which I take to be the study of morals) are absolute, as far as I can make out, we (humanity) have yet to decide what they are. And we make progress through the ages, generation by generation. Indeed, I read the Bible, at one level, to be the history of that progress, which is how it comes to be an important document not only for Christian believers, but also for unbelievers.

In the world according to Strivax, absolute morality is God's Will, and the Will of God is absolute morality. But humanity, despite the Bible, does not yet know what absolute morality is. Barring catastrophe, each generation approaches absolute morality, gradually getting closer and closer as each generation corrects the mistakes and prejudices of the previous. And that process is greatly accelerated by the kind of humility that admits its ignorance, and ruthlessly seeks the ethical truth, whatever the scriptures record of the moralities of bygone ages.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Ron Gurley

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RESPECTFULLY...+To the contrary...You conclude man is slowly evolving through his own work to draw closer to God. According to the Bible, that view is UNTRUE!

Full Definition of THE MORALITY of MAN...RELATIVE and CHANGING.

1a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson
b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson
2a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct
3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct

God reveals ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS and LAWS in his "word"...FIXED and UNCHANGING.

Never should the MORALS of MAN be used to evaluate the TRUTHS of GOD. DNA is not the building block of SPIRIT and SOUL!

And here is the innate nature of Man:

Romans 3:23...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory (perfection) of God,...

Romans 3:10...as it is written, "There is none righteous(pure,perfect), not even one;

Q: What is the innate and natural tendency of the spirit of Man toward his God?
A: To turn away from and reject God,and toward self, world, and???

John 3:36 ...John the Baptizer
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life,
for God’s wrath remains on him."

Matthew 15: 15-19 (NASB)...Jesus: On The Heart / Soul / Spirit of Natural Man
15 Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.”
16 Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also?
17 Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?
18 But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
19 For out of the heart come:
evil thoughts,
murders,
adulteries,
fornications,
thefts,
false witness,
slanders.
(and the like!)
20 These are the things which defile the man;
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”

How God views our man-made "works":
Isaiah 64:6
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
 
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Strivax

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RESPECTFULLY...+To the contrary...You conclude man is slowly evolving through his own work to draw closer to God...

...God reveals ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS and LAWS in his "word"...FIXED and UNCHANGING...

Yes indeed, absolute morality is fixed and unchanging. Or it wouldn't be absolute. And yes, I believe humanity is getting closer with each generation to that absolute morality. One major advance is to insist on reasons for moral positions. And, if there are no reasons against this behaviour or that, then despite what the Bible says, that behaviour ought not be considered immoral. Likewise, if there are reasons to deplore some behaviour, then even if the Bible fails to mention it (and the Bible is not exactly comprehensive in respect of morality, and nor was it meant to be) then we should avoid it.

The Bible was state of the art ethics 16 centuries ago; that does not mean we should consider it to be state of the art ethics today, and disregard the social progress humanity has made since it was compiled.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Strivax, you again fail to realize this world overall is getting WORSE in all aspects. It is in the "Birth-Pangs" of total destruction. Listen to The Prophecy of Jesus about the "end times in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24...Jesus' prophecy and SIGNS of the "end of the (CHURCH) age" of Grace

QUESTIONS:
3 As He (Jesus) was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the DISCIPLES came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, (prophesy!)
1. WHEN will these THINGS happen, and
2. what will be the SIGN(s) of "Your (Second) COMING", and
3. (what will be the SIGN(s)) of "the end of the (Church) age"?"

ANSWERS:
1. v. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, (WHEN Tribulations / Things BEGIN)
not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
3.. v. 2-28...THINGS / SIGNS of .."birth pangs"...tribulation...great tribulation...to the brink...THEN
2. v. 29-31... Jesus' Glorious Return from Heaven!

"BIRTH PANGS" = NOW! Increasing in frequency and intensity!

4 And Jesus answered and said to them,
"See to it that no one misleads you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ (a savior)
and will mislead many. (Believers AND UnBelievers?)
You will be hearing of:
1. wars and rumors of wars.
See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. (of tribulation)
For:
2. nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,
and in various places there will be:
3. famines and
4.earthquakes.
But all these things (signs) are merely "the beginning of birth pangs".

Seven years of Tribulation / Great Tribulation described in Daniel ~11-12 have not begun!

Do not think this world ruled by satan/followers is improving spiritually! Get ready for the Second Coming of Jesus the Christ...KING of kings, LORD of Lords. SEE 1 Thess. 4 for details!
 
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Strivax

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Doubtless, in every age, past, present and future, people have been, are, and will be expecting the imminent end of the world based on these writings. Meanwhile, we now no longer crucify politically inconvenient rabbis, or imprison homosexuals, or subject each other to slavery, or see women as second class citizens to be denied the vote. In these, and very many other, smaller, ways, humanity is doing way better than in the times of the scriptures, due in no small part to the scriptures. Barring catastrophe, I see no reason why this ethical progress should not continue.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Humanity is NOT doing way better SPIRITUALLY. Christ-following is decreasing. Who is in control of the "world"??

1. How does men's "behavior" translate to REAL beings? Jesus / Apostles cast out REAL SPIRIT BEINGS. E.G>

..."For He had commanded the unclean SPIRIT to come out of the man"....

Matthew 8:16
When evening came,
they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed;
and He cast out the SPIRITS with a word, and healed all who were ill.

Matthew 8 (NASB)
32 And He (Jesus) said to them, "Go!" And they (demons) came out (of 2 men) and went into the swine,
and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you

Mark 1:34
And He healed many who were ill with various diseases,
and cast out many demons;
and He was not permitting the demons to SPEAK,
because they knew who He was.

Luke 4
33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the SPIRIT of an unclean demon, and he (demon) cried out with a loud VOICE,
34 "Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us?
I know who You are—the Holy One of God!"
35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!"

Luke 9:42 ...
But Jesus rebuked the unclean SPIRIT, and healed the boy and gave him back to his father.

1 Timothy 4:1 [ Apostasy = NOW! ]
But the Spirit explicitly says that in "later times" some will "fall away" from the faith,
paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

By Scriptural analysis, satan was allowed into Eden in the form of a serpent to lie, deceive, test, etc. A&E.

Revelation 12:9
And the "great dragon" was thrown down,
the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;
he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels (demons) were thrown down with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold of the dragon,
the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and
bound him for a thousand years;


Here's what Paul suggests on "Overcoming the Devil"...

2 Corinthians 4: 2-4 (NASB) Paul: "the god of this world" (cosmos)
....by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case "the god of this world" (SATAN!)
has blinded the minds of the unbelieving
so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

SATAN-demons...who dat?

My guess at the "pecking order" of "Spirit Beings"...
1. Jesus: Spirit-Man = Deity = the Creator of ALL
2. Angels (messenger spirit beings following or rejecting God)
3. satan / demons (spirit beings rejecting God)
4. Man: made in the spiritual image of God...Genesis 1:26
later: believers are promised "spirit bodies" in heaven

"Satan" occurs 54 times in 47 verses in the NASB

Other names: Lucifer / devil / "serpent" / demons / unclean-evil spirits / evil one / beast / dragon / false prophet / Baal / etc

2 Corinthians 11:14 ... for even satan disguises himself as an "angel of light".

2 Corinthians 4: 2-4...in whose case "the god of this world" (SATAN!) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving

Matthew 25:41...into the eternal fire ("lake of fire"?) which has been prepared for the devil and HIS angels ;

Revelation 20:10...The un-holy trinity
And the "devil" (anti-God) who deceived them was thrown into the "Lake of Fire" and brimstone,
where the "beast" (anti-Christ) and the "false prophet" (anti-Spirit) are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

According to Scripture: (primarily Genesis / Gospels / Revelation)
1) Satan blinds people to the truth.
2) Satan works among those who live in disobedience to God.
3) Satan deceives.
4) Satan tempts people with desirable things.
5) And Satan twists Scripture to say things God does not mean

Satan is NOT the opposite and equal to God.
He is a lessor created spirit being with limited powers and attributes who rebelled with "free will".
He is allowed to exist within the will of God to bring ALL glory to Himself. A perfectly good God did not create "evil".
Evil is simply the absence of God.

Traditionally, "Lucifer" / satan was the highest angel cast from the heavenly realm for the "sin" of "pride" into the lowest parts of the earth.(Sheol)

SEE: Isaiah 14: 12-15 (NASB)...Israel’s Taunt of Satan

SEE ALSO: Ezekiel 28..."Tyre’s King " Overthrown

Revelation 12:9

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 2: 1-2 (NASB)
And you (believers) were (spiritually) dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world (cosmos), according to "the prince of the power of the air",
of the SPIRIT that is now working in the sons of disobedience.(unbelievers)

Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since the children (all humanity) share in flesh and blood (Body + Soul),
He (Jesus) Himself likewise also partook of the same, (miraculous incarnation) that through death (sacrifice on the Cross)
He might render powerless him who HAD the power of death, that is, the DEVIL,...

And satan / demons (spirit beings rejecting God) are spiritually and eternally separated from the heavenly realms of the TRI-UNE GOD ....JUSTLY Judged and Sentenced.

Revelations 20...The Eternal Judgments of Spirit Beings in Spiritual Realms
"...and the devil (Lucifer/Satan) who had deceived them was thrown into the "lake of fire" and sulfur
where the beast (anti-christ) and the false prophet ( anti-spirit) were, and they (unholy spiritual "trinity") WILL be tormented day and night forever and ever." ...

Biblically it is hard to deny the existence of : satan / demons (spirit beings rejecting God)...

BUT...good news!...

Colossians 2: 14b-15 (NASB)
...God disarmed / triumphed over Satan through Jesus the God-Man !

1 John 3:8
....; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
The Son of God appeared for this purpose,
to destroy the WORKS of the devil.

1 John 4:4
You, dear children, (believers) are from God
and have overcome them (evil spirit beings),
because the one who is in you (God the Holy Spirit)
is greater than the one who is in the world.(satan)

Do you believe in satan + demons....evil spirit beings?
Do you believe they are at work in this world/cosmos?
 
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