Image of Heaven

With that, the only plausible scenario I can think of alone, is that time in this life is only a trial for the next. The only requisite you have for this one is submission, and in the next virtue will be nurtured or further filtered.

Anyway, please tell me how it should be envisioned properly. Or how you think it is. Thank you.

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Close. This one is a trial only for those who fail to acknowledge Jesus as Savior. The "requisite" is acknowledging Him. THAT will result in eternal life, eternal security. How does one achieve that? It has already been achieved, at the Cross.

Here is how you get on board:
John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:1. All of that is achieved when you confess that Jesus is real, that He came to save us, and carried our burdens.

Check it out: Romans 10:8-13. That seals it forever.

Heaven should be envisioned as a place of free will free choice, yet a permanent allegiance to your creator and his Son Jesus Christ. With joyful activities to take place in. It will be a place where Christ will reign forever and I do believe there will be a hierarchy that follows Christ with Christ at the top and who knows who in 2nd third and down the line to the end of the bottom of Christ. But heaven is a joyful place, but under the Christian world view it is not our final destination or permanent home. The earth is our permanent and final destination and what we were meant for. So Christs eternal kingdom will be on a new earth free from sin, and the consequences of sin namely death, natural disasters, and suffering. We will have resurrected bodies which in itself is a remarkable hope of the christian faith. Bodies free from corruption and pain, and able to move in and out of places with the power of our mind. We know this because Christ when resurrected was able to go through locked doors and he didn't physically unlock the door but just entered locked room through his mind.

So this is just the tip of the iceberg and there will in my opinion be an infinite number of things to do, but there will still be order and what not, which will be easily accomplished when this childish mindset and maturity we have as fallible humans is removed and we put on the Godly maturity of resurrected bodies. Most of the problems today, war, human conflict, relationship issues, are due to our immaturity and with us having perfect maturity life will go much more smoothly.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:

Heaven should be envisioned as a place of free will free choice, yet a permanent allegiance to your creator and his Son Jesus Christ. With joyful activities to take place in. It will be a place where Christ will reign forever and I do believe there will be a hierarchy that follows Christ with Christ at the top and who knows who in 2nd third and down the line to the end of the bottom of Christ. But heaven is a joyful place, but under the Christian world view it is not our final destination or permanent home. The earth is our permanent and final destination and what we were meant for. So Christs eternal kingdom will be on a new earth free from sin, and the consequences of sin namely death, natural disasters, and suffering. We will have resurrected bodies which in itself is a remarkable hope of the christian faith. Bodies free from corruption and pain, and able to move in and out of places with the power of our mind. We know this because Christ when resurrected was able to go through locked doors and he didn't physically unlock the door but just entered locked room through his mind.

So this is just the tip of the iceberg and there will in my opinion be an infinite number of things to do, but there will still be order and what not, which will be easily accomplished when this childish mindset and maturity we have as fallible humans is removed and we put on the Godly maturity of resurrected bodies. Most of the problems today, war, human conflict, relationship issues, are due to our immaturity and with us having perfect maturity life will go much more smoothly.

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that's how i like to imagine heaven^^^^^^

Surskit said:

Hello all,

I've just recently signed up on the site and am seeking reasons why people believe, in hopes that something will click with me and help me down my own path. In my introductory thread I considered maybe my image of heaven wasn't correct, and was advised to describe what I think here.

So, first off I've been told two versions which I'm not very fond of. The first would be an eternity of selfless bliss. No thinking or body, just a sense of peace. If nothing else, I am myself, and the idea of that ceasing is not appealing. Ironically, the same outcome would be the case for the lack of an afterlife, but thats beside the point.

The second version is a second life, without injury and each individual will have their personal heaven. This second version sounds perverse in the sense that you've lived a life presumably of austerity, only to live a life of indulgence after. I hear of golden mansions and crowns and such, and it sickens me. A life where you're given everything has no value. A heaven where I'm given everything is only as valuable as my aversion to an eternity in hell.

The idea of heaven to me, is a world, not unlike the one we live in. However, those deemed virtuous are the only ones that dwell here. There is no death or disease, and Jesus is praised eternally. However this strikes me as superficial. I appreciate things because I know what it means not to have. And even in that appraisal, the feeling is fleeting, taking up moments in the scheme of my life. An eternity to take heaven for granted seems unavoidable. And the believers who unwittingly praise in echoes of material greed can't be blamed for such inadequacies because they believed they were doing right and being justly rewarded. They would also likely be there.

With that, the only plausible scenario I can think of alone, is that time in this life is only a trial for the next. The only requisite you have for this one is submission, and in the next virtue will be nurtured or further filtered.

Anyway, please tell me how it should be envisioned properly. Or how you think it is. Thank you.

Click to expand...

Hello again, Surskit.

What image of Heaven should we have? That's a good question, and it is a tough one to answer, mainly because it's not at present open to empirical investigation, nor does the Bible really give us comprehensive accounts as to what is specifically in store for us when we get to Heaven...or to wherever and whatever actually constitutes that eternal life in Christ that is to be.

Probably the closest thing we have in the Bible that gives us more than just a few shreds of detail--yet still without offering a full digest of what is to come in Heaven--is what we find in 1 Corinthians 15:35-58, given by the hands of Paul the Apostle. There he basically alludes to the fact that we will undergo a transformation of some sort into some state that will be anything but boring. And that's it... ...although we could sift through the rest of the Bible and obtain a few more clues if we wished to.

I think it's all meant to be a "surprise" of sorts, as seems to be inferred by the quote from Isaiah 64:4 that Paul uses,


In fact, the language which the Bible seems to use to describe the Final State of God's Eternal Reign seems to be one that might include a renewed Earth as well as a cleansed Heaven; even though we can't say for sure at this point. Maybe in that vein, what we'll find is that perhaps we'll be able to do things that even the characters on the Star Trek Enterprise could only dream about doing. Maybe Earth will be 'home-base.'

It's something to think about if we want to focus on things of an Eschatalogical nature, because the Final State is a part of that aspect of theology.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Surskit said:

Hello again!

I think I merged your response with someone else's by accident as I read everyone's at once. Eschatological, I learned a new word, and an interesting angle for me to approach things from. I think it's best to look at it top down since the foundational truths of the Bible have to be filtered through political and social dynamics, censure, syncretism, and so forth.

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Yep. It's always good to filter things; get all those additives out before ingesting.

Hi Surskit,

Submit is a Islam idea. The Bible version of it is rather interesting. If you take a look at the OT, all the different prophets have their own personality, some even to the point of trying to not do what God asks. And in NT, the followers of Jesus acts differently as well, with their own personalities and flaws, Peter even denied Jesus 3 times (after he said he will never do it).

No ones knows what exactly heaven will be like, but I would imagine it is a place where we keep our own personalities, less the bad parts, i.e. we will no longer worship idols, we won't envy others, won't kill others, but only love.

I think the closest we can see what heaven is from some of the reported near death experiences. Many reported they see their died relatives, where they were sent to guide them. Others saw images of fire and were really afraid, but is under reported.

Surskit said:

While we do have a childish mindset and short life as compared to the eternal, man has the benefit of collective learning. The culmination of at least 6000 years of knowledge. I like to think of it as a 6000 year old discussion. That said, even in the face of eternity it's nothing, but I think there's merit in spinning those wheels nonetheless. We can envision things we've never perceived, and though heaven was described as a place man has never conceived, that was thousands of years ago.

Be that as it may, I'm less concerned with the physicality of it, as I am with the point of it. An all powerful God created us, gave us free will, and will save us from ourselves to continue doing things far below His glory. Of course anything we do is of no consequence or benefit to such a being. So looking inwardly, I can only think as if I were a creator. I'd want to see my creation grow and develop autonomy. I'd want to recreate the values I hold. But in a world of free will, I don't suspect everyone will follow those same principles. Is it right to punish those who stray? And, more importantly, would I want to go to a heaven even if it were within reach? I shouldn't want it merely to avoid hell. But if it doesn't align with my values, it's either perish or submit.

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Surskit said:

Thanks for the reply. Why do you say it's only a trial for those who don't acknowledge him?

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The trial is for those who have not acknowledged Him. The verdict will come down if they die in unbelief.

In that line of thinking it seems like you need only to follow the scripture and accept Jesus. Whether you feel anything is of no consequence.

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You need only to accept Jesus as Savior. Romans 10:8-13 (no strings attached).

... even if I concede to Jesus dying for our sins, I'll doubt many other parts of the Bible.

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Read a few of the posts here at CF. Doubt does, indeed, creep in. From whence cometh doubt? You are currently limited in your ability to understand; you do not walk in the Spiritual Insight of our Lord.

There have been many religions throughout time, with similar origin myths, similar trials, and contradictory requisites. All of them could be wrong, but only one could possibly be right. But that's for another topic I suppose.

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Yes, indeed. The winner is that Jesus is not a "religion," or "just another religion." HE is the Way, the Truth, the Life. It is only in believing that (Romans 10:8-13) that you will rejoice! Your eternity will be secured!

I can certainly relate with your views on Heaven; if that's what Heaven was really like, I wouldn't want to go there either. But, I do believe it will be much like what life was like before the fall; the difference being we will have shared in Jesus' suffering, glory, and knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were two companions living together in paradise and fellowshipping with God - there was no death, disease, sickness or sin, and there were jobs to be done. God gave us certain desires and expectations for eternity, and it wouldn't make sense for Him not to meet / surpass those expectations.

From my perspective, and based on my understanding of scripture, Heaven will be much like what it's like here on earth, but perfect. There will be jobs to do, new things to learn, adventures to partake in, friends and family to spend time with, events to attend, sports, business, etc. Even though the Bible describes the city of God (New Jerusalem), I see Heaven as having diverse ethnicities, cultures, fauna, climates, etc. John states that he saw no oceans in Heaven, but perhaps there are oceans outside of the main city.

What makes Heaven Heaven, however, is being with God and doing His will - this is eternal life. After I became saved and fell in love with God, I found such excitement in reading God's word, seeking Him, glorifying Him and doing His will above my own. This is what we were made for; when a person becomes born again, they are already experiencing eternal life / heaven to some extent. Heaven, ultimately, is about God, not us or our desires - although, God will still give us the desires of our heart because He love us and for His glory. Physical creation exists exclusively to glorify God (even Jesus seeks to glorify the Father). There will also be rewards, but they are given based on selfless acts done in this life; perhaps everything else attained in Heaven must still be earned through hard work (which won't be cursed like work here on earth - Genesis 3:17-18). I do believe there will also be feeling and emotion - such as joy, excitement, even sadness, pain and anger to some level, but God will directly intervene and prevent extreme, negative feelings, or won't allow situations in which we would feel such things (such as shock, anxiety and stress); I doubt these feelings will simply be "wiped away". Edit: In short, God won't take away our ability to feel, but will prevent us from feeling sadness, pain, anger, anxiety, etc.

Again, just my opinion, but I've thought long and hard over this issue over the past years. I'm also very careful when it comes to NDE's / Heaven experiences, but I find Oden Hetrick's testimony as the most accurate and biblical. I'm not dogmatic about it, but here's his account encase anyone's interested:

With the exception of this:

I do believe there will also be feeling and emotion - such as joy, excitement, even sadness, pain and anger to some level,

Yours is a great post. Thanks!

No problem; it's a hard concept to convey, but I was referring to Revelation 21:4 - "He will wipe every tear from their eyes". I meant that God won't take away our ability to feel those things (we'll still be the same person), but rather God won't allow us to feel those things; He will directly intervene. But yeah, just my opinion. =)

Surskit said:

So, first off I've been told two versions which I'm not very fond of. The first would be an eternity of selfless bliss. No thinking or body, just a sense of peace. If nothing else, I am myself, and the idea of that ceasing is not appealing. Ironically, the same outcome would be the case for the lack of an afterlife, but thats beside the point.

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Well, there is no good biblical basis for thinking the afterlife will be as you've described here.

Surskit said:

The second version is a second life, without injury and each individual will have their personal heaven. This second version sounds perverse in the sense that you've lived a life presumably of austerity, only to live a life of indulgence after. I hear of golden mansions and crowns and such, and it sickens me. A life where you're given everything has no value. A heaven where I'm given everything is only as valuable as my aversion to an eternity in hell.

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This isn't a biblical view of heaven, either. As far as the Bible is concerned, there is no such thing as a "personal heaven." Heaven is God's "home," His dwelling place, not some private, eternal paradise for a deceased human being.

Surskit said:

The idea of heaven to me, is a world, not unlike the one we live in. However, those deemed virtuous are the only ones that dwell here. There is no death or disease, and Jesus is praised eternally. However this strikes me as superficial.

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Why would someone identifying as an atheist hold any view of heaven at all? It seems to me the natural, logical end of a person in a world without God is the utter and permanent cessation of all consciousness. In any event, the Bible is clear that only the perfectly righteous will enter God's dwelling place and stand before Him accepted. And the only way any human being obtains such righteousness is through trust in, and submission to, Christ as Saviour and Lord and repentance from a life lived in rebellion toward him. Those who have obeyed the Gospel and surrendered themselves to Christ will be the only "virtuous" human beings found in heaven.

It is no surprise that the heaven you describe above seems "superficial" to you. Heaven is not constituted primarily of the absence of death and disease and eternal praise of Christ. Praise of Christ is a integral aspect of heaven, to be sure, for he is totally worthy of unending praise and those who know and love him are always keen to give it to him. But Heaven is fundamentally the dwelling place of God, the holy Being every atheist denies. What could be more "superficial" to an atheist than the idea of the "home" of the Creator-God they deny even exists?

Surskit said:

An eternity to take heaven for granted seems unavoidable.

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Says one who neither knows nor loves the One who makes heaven the paradise that it is. I would say your view of God is far too small and this makes your understanding of Heaven profoundly stunted, but as an atheist you have eschewed the notion of God entirely. Your view of God isn't that He is small but, rather, nonexistent. It is no wonder, then, that you take issue with the notion of Heaven.

Surskit said:

With that, the only plausible scenario I can think of alone, is that time in this life is only a trial for the next. The only requisite you have for this one is submission, and in the next virtue will be nurtured or further filtered.

Anyway, please tell me how it should be envisioned properly. Or how you think it is. Thank you.

Click to expand...

As a Christian, my views on heaven can be found in the pages of the Bible. Here are a few you might consider:

2 Peter 3:10-13
Revelation 21:1-4
John 14:1-3
2 Corinthians 5:1-11
Hebrews 11:16

And so on.

Selah.

Surskit said:

Hello all,

I've just recently signed up on the site and am seeking reasons why people believe, in hopes that something will click with me and help me down my own path. In my introductory thread I considered maybe my image of heaven wasn't correct, and was advised to describe what I think here.

So, first off I've been told two versions which I'm not very fond of. The first would be an eternity of selfless bliss. No thinking or body, just a sense of peace. If nothing else, I am myself, and the idea of that ceasing is not appealing. Ironically, the same outcome would be the case for the lack of an afterlife, but thats beside the point.

The second version is a second life, without injury and each individual will have their personal heaven. This second version sounds perverse in the sense that you've lived a life presumably of austerity, only to live a life of indulgence after. I hear of golden mansions and crowns and such, and it sickens me. A life where you're given everything has no value. A heaven where I'm given everything is only as valuable as my aversion to an eternity in hell.

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Hi Surskit, nice to meet you! You have brought forth very good points of interest.

There is two aspects involved here, that need to be separated for clarity:

1. Paradise Earth - this is, when Daniel 2:44.
2. Going to be with The Lord in The Father's House (John 14:3-4).

For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:5

It is only while we are alive that we can act to any result for God's sake in the world (Ephesians 5:15-16).

I can't speak from experience about what life will be like once the body is lifeless, yet I do know the peacefulness of God's place - The Holy of Holies.

I would like to clarify terms with you, because it is really important to get this right: The Gospel is about life in the here and now, whereas the false doctrines of the antichrist (1 John 4:3, Romans 8:9-11) have made it about life in the hereafter, to delude, derail and pacify Christians regarding the spiritual war over the world and turn their attention to worthlessness (Psalms 12:8).

As we know, God made the world as paradise - we could walk around freely eating from any tree. Once humans began to sustain themselves on the knowledge of good and evil, our mindset changed from one of love and service toward each other, to one of contract and obligation. This is the core of a conversion in Christianity - to lay down one's life and begin to live for Christ as we come to recognise Him in those whom we serve (Matthew 10:8, Matthew 6:19-20, Luke 22:35, Acts 4:32-35, Mark 10:42-45).

As you see, institutional Christianity has lost this message and produces churches that are more-or-less self-regulated corporations operating in Jesus' name while excluding Him from decisions.

So, life includes a potential for paradise (redemption of the world - overcoming sin, establishing Zion (Daniel 2:44, Amos 7:7)). An afterlife in heaven is promised to us, if we choose to participate in this campaign by letting go of our life and choosing not to live for our own ideas of what we want our life to be. Instead we live daily by prayer and always striving to carry out what God requires of us, so that He can achieve the changes in the world through our faithful representation of Him (John 6:44, John 14:3-4, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 16:24, Revelation 17:14, Daniel 7:21-22, Luke 9:62, Matthew 22:14).

Surskit said:

The idea of heaven to me, is a world, not unlike the one we live in. However, those deemed virtuous are the only ones that dwell here. There is no death or disease, and Jesus is praised eternally.

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This is the vision for what Zion will achieve (Revelation 21:2-4, Isaiah 11:6-9).

Surskit said:

Christians come to theological crisis just as often as non-Christians, so I'd say there's as much trial for them as anyone.

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We live amongst 2,000 years-odd of false teachings, so it is unavoidable that we will encounter and form our beliefs from something that is erroneous. Then when a person develops a more sophisticated set of beliefs, having an error in a foundation belief, to repent of that error is risky: it threatens their entire perception of salvation. In fact, one at that point really does need to literally face the prospect of losing their eternal salvation in order to repent of and to correct that false belief.

Therefore, your salvation is for you to settle with God. Test all things, hold fast to the good, knowing that it is The Lord Jesus Christ who approves or condemns us (Romans 14:4, Matthew 24:45-51).

Surskit said:

My skepticism is strong and I'm quite confident that even if I concede to Jesus dying for our sins, I'll doubt many other parts of the Bible. There have been many religions throughout time, with similar origin myths, similar trials, and contradictory requisites. All of them could be wrong, but only one could possibly be right. But that's for another topic I suppose.

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This man, Jesus, is The Holy One of God. None other like Him, and the whole world belongs to Him. Yet when He came to lead and teach us in the ways of truth and love, the world was unable to receive Him and enthrone Him humbly. There just was no way The Kingdom could be achieved during His short lifetime (Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 21:43-44, Luke 19:14, Revelation 21:6). In fact, the world was so enchanted by wickedness that it even crucified Him and would rather have a murderous rebel, because a murderer did not expose their sin quite as did this obscure carpenter with an unmatched righteousness (John 3:20).

Therefore, He did go willingly to the cross because it bought us time and judged the devil (John 12:31, Matthew 12:29, Hebrews 9:11), and if we give ourselves to impeccable service for His cause, YHWH will guard us from all injustice as He did guard His own dear son (Luke 4:28-30, Isaiah 54:17, 2 Corinthians 3:12, Revelation 21:8).

We actually are called to be ambassadors for Christ Jesus while He fulfils the remaining Messianic prophecy (Ephesians 4:11-16, Acts 2:33-35).

Surskit said:

While we do have a childish mindset and short life as compared to the eternal, man has the benefit of collective learning. The culmination of at least 6000 years of knowledge. I like to think of it as a 6000 year old discussion. That said, even in the face of eternity it's nothing, but I think there's merit in spinning those wheels nonetheless. We can envision things we've never perceived, and though heaven was described as a place man has never conceived, that was thousands of years ago.

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It is written that God's throne is in heaven and earth is His footstool. John 1:50-51 shows that Jesus promised Nathaniel would perceive angels descending from heaven upon The Son of Man (therefore stating that heaven and earth are entwined). Other scriptures such as Matthew 5:20 and Luke 10:20 show this too.

Surskit said:

Be that as it may, I'm less concerned with the physicality of it, as I am with the point of it. An all powerful God created us, gave us free will, and will save us from ourselves to continue doing things far below His glory. Of course anything we do is of no consequence or benefit to such a being. So looking inwardly, I can only think as if I were a creator. I'd want to see my creation grow and develop autonomy. I'd want to recreate the values I hold. But in a world of free will, I don't suspect everyone will follow those same principles.

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This world, left to it's own management, will become hell. It will not last much longer unless those who take the authority of His name will in fact honour Him. The whole purpose of creation is that we are meant to unanimously praise God and thank Him from our deepest being, for having life. There was a potential weakness though, being that humans did choose to pursue more than contentment. Even so, after all of this, when the truth comes to be universal knowledge, we would look upon paradise with retrospect to the present day and how close of proximity we came to an everlasting destruction,.. this weakness will never again exist (1 Corinthians 15:54-57).

Surskit said:

Is it right to punish those who stray?

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It is for God to punish and for us to represent Him faithfully, because the misrepresentation of God is a deadly disease. (Hebrews 10:26-31, 1 Peter 4:17, 2 Peter 2:1-3, Exodus 20:7).

Surskit said:

And, more importantly, would I want to go to a heaven even if it were within reach? I shouldn't want it merely to avoid hell. But if it doesn't align with my values, it's either perish or submit.

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Consider Luke 16:16 and John 4:23. Also John 10:1, and think about this. If you picture honestly, what is the true nature of a holy, righteous, good God of love,.. think, what might His goal be, what might He be able to achieve with your life if He was to equip you with a real, living knowledge of this truth, and then think about what it is that prevents you from going ahead to offer your life to Him in service..

.. then maybe you search your soul, even pray and read the bible, just to see if there is a chance that He has called you forward today, to right at this moment meet Him and find that answer you've always been searching for.

----------------------------------

Dear Heavenly Father, wow this man has really dug out some deeper knowledge of your plan of salvation! Lord, I really want to thank you for having brought us here for this and having kept him to this day so that he hasn't resisted your message. Heavenly Father, I know that your sons and daughters are continually amidst swathes of false beliefs and deceptions, not having known you closely for such a long time, that it is difficult to recognise you and your messengers amongst those who unknowingly misrepresent you. So we would like to ask for your help with this to our brother Surskit here, that you would even begin to lay your spirit upon his heart, so that he would start to understand that he is dearly loved, and that even though for so long the knowledge of you has been a hypothetical illusion, that a new reality unfolds for him this day, that actually you are really there and you are with him as he takes up authority in his own life, to stand with strength about who you really are - a holy, righteous God who loves us and who shows no favouritism, but rewards each of us according to our ways. So we commit his life to you here, Lord God, asking that you'll draw near to him and to win his faith, that he can begin to walk forward having confidence that indeed, we are together in transforming the world to paradise and we are looking forward to an awesome hope - to be with you in the place that you call home. Oh dear Heavenly Father, we just thank you for being who you are, because nobody else could do what you have done, could love like you love us, after all that you have endured. So we honour you and declare that the glory, kingdom and the power belong to you, in the name of Jesus Christ, forever and forever. Amen.

---------------------------------

.. And also, I would like to share the gospel with you at this opportunity (Ephesians 6:15):

Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

Surskit said:

Hello all,

I've just recently signed up on the site and am seeking reasons why people believe, in hopes that something will click with me and help me down my own path. In my introductory thread I considered maybe my image of heaven wasn't correct, and was advised to describe what I think here.

So, first off I've been told two versions which I'm not very fond of. The first would be an eternity of selfless bliss. No thinking or body, just a sense of peace. If nothing else, I am myself, and the idea of that ceasing is not appealing. Ironically, the same outcome would be the case for the lack of an afterlife, but thats beside the point.

The second version is a second life, without injury and each individual will have their personal heaven. This second version sounds perverse in the sense that you've lived a life presumably of austerity, only to live a life of indulgence after. I hear of golden mansions and crowns and such, and it sickens me. A life where you're given everything has no value. A heaven where I'm given everything is only as valuable as my aversion to an eternity in hell.

The idea of heaven to me, is a world, not unlike the one we live in. However, those deemed virtuous are the only ones that dwell here. There is no death or disease, and Jesus is praised eternally. However this strikes me as superficial. I appreciate things because I know what it means not to have. And even in that appraisal, the feeling is fleeting, taking up moments in the scheme of my life. An eternity to take heaven for granted seems unavoidable. And the believers who unwittingly praise in echoes of material greed can't be blamed for such inadequacies because they believed they were doing right and being justly rewarded. They would also likely be there.

With that, the only plausible scenario I can think of alone, is that time in this life is only a trial for the next. The only requisite you have for this one is submission, and in the next virtue will be nurtured or further filtered.

Anyway, please tell me how it should be envisioned properly. Or how you think it is. Thank you.

Click to expand...

I haven't read any of the previous posts, so I'm more-or-less posting blind.

I would certainly agree with your feelings in regard to these views of heaven. Which is also why I think it is incredibly important to point out that "heaven" isn't what Christians hope for, at least not orthodox, traditional Christianity. This often comes as a surprise to many (including other Christians who have not been properly taught some very basic Christian theology): the eschatological hope of the Christian is not "heaven", it is not some ethereal, far away, pie-in-the-sky, spiritual place where we exist as disembodied spirits humming and drumming along in lazy bliss singing worship songs. The Christian hope is the resurrection of the body, and future bodily life in what we call the Age to Come. If one looks at the historic Creeds of the Christian Church one will find no mention of "going to heaven", instead we find hope and faith in the resurrection and eternal life in the Age to Come.

Here is the Apostles' Creed on the matter:

"We believe in ...
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen."

That phrase, "resurrection of the body", in the original Latin reads, "carnis resurrectionem", literally "resurrection of the flesh"

This is why Jesus rose from the dead and why belief that Jesus rose from the dead, that His tomb is empty, is important, critically important to Christian teaching. In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul writes, "If the dead do not rise then Christ is not risen" and "If Christ is not risen, then you are dead in your sins, our hope is in vain, and we are to be pitied above all other people"

Jesus did not come, live, suffer, die, and rise in order that people could have a nice place for their soul to hang out in the afterlife; but in order to defeat and put an end to the power of sin, death, hell, the grave, and the devil; and His resurrection means that we, too, can have hope that when He comes again we also will be raised the same way He was.

The same Paul the Apostle writes, in the same chapter of 1 Corinthians,

"Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”


The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And further in his letter to the Philippians,

"But our citizenship is from heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will transform the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself."

The Bible, especially the New Testament, talks time and again about resurrection, the renewal of the earth, the restoration of all creation; what it never talks about is "going to heaven". There are, in the Christian Bible, a total of maybe two passages that even suggest anything about being in heaven:

1) In 2 Corinthians St. Paul writes, "So we are always confident; even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." This is about as close as the entire Bible gets to talking about "going to heaven", and it doesn't even really say that, but indicates that between bodily death and the resurrection we will be present with Jesus--in some way not even remotely described or indicated.

2) In the Apocalypse of St. John (aka the book of the Revelation) there is a scene in which martyrs are described standing before God's throne in the heavens, "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

That's it. That is, in a nutshell, about all the information we have, from the Bible, about people being in heaven. This has led N.T. Wright, a retired Anglican bishop and rather well renown NT scholar and theologian to say that the Bible is not so much interested in "life after death" but rather "life after life after death".

"Heaven" isn't important in the Bible, beyond being euphemistically used to describe God's great big vastness in relation to us; Solomon says, "The heavens, not even the highest heavens, can contain you".

And so the Christian hope, historically, and in the language of the historic Church and the Creeds, isn't really about going to a place called "heaven", but instead on the resurrection of the body, of the renewal and restoration of the material creation. Fundamentally it's this blue marble that we look forward to living on, right here on terra firma. It is not about a lackadaisical saccharine state of meaningless "happiness", it is instead the reality of life affirmed to be intrinsically and ultimately truly good.

Life here on earth isn't a testing ground, or a game, it matters; because we--all of us--were created for this world, human beings, all creatures, all exist with meaning here; it is our home because God made it our home. You and me, trees, mountains, lakes, every single living thing that has ever existed in the last 4.5 billion years of earth's history matters. And we are not looking for a life away from this, in which we exist in the body, in relation to other creatures and one another; but instead look forward to the ultimate affirmation and assertion of life. Of a life that is more than, but not other than. Relationships matter, people matter, whether or not the poor are well treated, or hungry mouths get fed matter, how we treat animals matters, how we regard our environment matters, all things matter--and they have a meaningful permanence which ultimately transcends death and suffering, because of resurrection, toward which we look and hope.

"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you. ... I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved." - St. Paul, Romans ch. 8

-CryptoLutheran