Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?

Walk the Straight Path

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Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim
 

W2L

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Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim
The apostle Paul tolerated slavery because it was the way of the world, and the law, back then. However he never promoted it, but instead preached against it. 1 1 Corinthians 7:21-24
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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The apostle Paul tolerated slavery because it was the way of the world, and the law, back then. However he never promoted it, but instead preached against it. 1 1 Corinthians 7:21-24



In the Quran, slavery is talked about negatively and it's considered a great blessing to free slaves. However, slavery is never explicitly banned in either the Quran or Bible and on the contrary there are instances of God explicitly allowing slavery. Slavery should be discouraged, absolutely. But can we say that it's a sin, and terribly wrong, if God allowed it?


If the Bible is right, Paul didn't care about the way of the world. He was out to change it.
 
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W2L

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In the Quran, slavery is talked about negatively and it's considered a great blessing to free slaves. However, slavery is never explicitly banned in either the Quran or Bible and on the contrary there are instances of God explicitly allowing slavery. Slavery should be discouraged, absolutely. But can we say that it's a sin, and terribly wrong, if God allowed it?


If the Bible is right, Paul didn't care about the way of the world. He was out to change it.
Paul taught us to serve others in love, but he wasnt trying to change the world, but instead was teaching us to be separate from it, just as John teaches us too.

I heard that Muslims enslave Christians in Africa.
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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Paul taught us to serve others in love, but he wasnt trying to change the world, but instead was teaching us to be separate from it, just as John teaches us too.

I've read the Epistles, Paul was quite clearly teaching a new way of living, divergent from the lifestyles of the Jews and the Hellenic pagans.


[QUOTE="W2L, post: 71090705, member: 388513]
I heard that Muslims enslave Christians in Africa.[/QUOTE]



Where'd you hear that? The only places where slavery is still widespread is Mauritania and under the table in Saudi, the slaves are mostly other Muslims. Are you talking about sicko terrorist filth like Boko Haram or ISIS? They're not practicing Islam, because they violate the essential commands of Islam — about not killing the innocent, and not forcing conversions (there is no compulsion in religion)

Just as the LRA in Uganda and the Anti-Balaka force in the Central African Republic aren't examples of Christianity, they aren't examples of Islam.


Now what about my main query, how do you feel about the adoption of secular modern morality in the church? Where things acceptable in the Bible and even 300 years ago in Euro-American society are condemned whereas things unacceptable in the Bible and even 50 years ago in Euro-American society are embraced?
 
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ChristianFromKazakhstan

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Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim

I agree with you 100%. All churches are serving the world. The reason being, the bottom line of their existence is money. It's the opposite of what Jesus (PBUH) was teaching. According to the Injil, Jesus was teaching, it's wrong to give money to church (give Caesar's to Caesar). He was teaching that hireling pastors run away when a wolf comes. He was teaching, the true worship is not in a church building, but in the Spirit and in truth. The church has completely betrayed Jesus (PBUH). They claim they follow Him, but instead, they twisted and skewed His words for their economic benefit.

That's why God is far from today's churhes. They are worldly organisations serving the corrupt society based on credit interest slavery. That's why churches teach the opposite of what Taurat, Zabur and Injil are teaching. For example, what you mentioned and much more. They operate on money. They've sold their souls to mamonna.
 
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W2L

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I've read the Epistles, Paul was quite clearly teaching a new way of living, divergent from the lifestyles of the Jews and the Hellenic pagans.


[QUOTE="W2L, post: 71090705, member: 388513]
I heard that Muslims enslave Christians in Africa.



[/QUOTE]
Paul was apolitical, he was spreading the Gospel not trying to change the world. Paul gave up his life on earth, he counted all things as a loss.

About your main query, I believe in following the law of love which is taught by the Lords apostles. Love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies and do good for them. Thats what the Church needs to practice and preach.
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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I agree with you 100%. All churches are serving the world. The reason being, the bottom line of their existence is money. It's the opposite of what Jesus (PBUH) was teaching. According to the Injil, Jesus was teaching, it's wrong to give money to church (give Caesar's to Caesar). He was teaching that hireling pastors run away when a wolf comes. He as teaching, the true worship is not in a church building, but in the Spirit and in truth. The church has completely betrayed Jesus (PBUH). They claim they follow Him, but instead, they twisted and skewed His words for their economic benefit.



It makes me very sad to see, because so many people are without any guidance. Worse yet, people who see these same problems don't know where to turn to because they don't know that Muslims also love Jesus and Moses and all of the prophets (peace upon all of them) and think that we are something completely different. I also think that a lot of white westerners see Islam as a foreigner's religion unlike Christianity, which makes them hesistant. I'm lucky I grew up in a multicultural place so I had much less of a problem with hang ups.
 
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W2L

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It makes me very sad to see, because so many people are without any guidance. Worse yet, people who see these same problems don't know where to turn to because they don't know that Muslims also love Jesus and Moses and all of the prophets (peace upon all of them) and think that we are something completely different. I also think that a lot of white westerners see Islam as a foreigner's religion unlike Christianity, which makes them hesistant. I'm lucky I grew up in a multicultural place so I had much less of a problem with hang ups.
Christians and Muslims dont believe in the same Jesus. Muslims dont believe hes Gods son. Right?
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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Paul was apolitical, he was spreading the Gospel not trying to change the world. Paul gave up his life on earth, he counted all things as a loss.

About your main query, I believe in following the law of love which is taught by the Lords apostles. Love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies and do good for them. Thats what the Church needs to practice and preach.[/QUOTE]


Who said anything about politics? Doctrine and politics are two different things.


The love of God is taught in the Bible and the Quran, you're right. It's also not the only thing in there, however it's the easiest thing to not follow any doctrine and wave it off as okay because of God's love. Love isn't structureless, God told us how to live our lives. To love him is to obey him no matter how difficult or unpopular it is.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim
To answer your question I think it's horrible but it's also predicted in the bible. I mean if you look at revelations for example and different churches mentioned there you see this. If you look in the OT you see this with pagan worship, if you look during JESUS time you see that most of the religious body was against him and against truth. If you look at acts during the time of the first church most are against as well.

So it always shocks me how people see....the secular adoption by most churches/hypocrisy in most as some sort of confirmation of christianity being false. There was never a time in the bible we live in of AD where a preponderance of the people in society were true servants of God. That's why when you hear christians that are part of secular churches say everyone is saved regardless of if they are in sin or not and such it just makes you scratch your head because of that was the case the the bible would be a lie. The bible says narrow is the way and few be there to find it yet it seems like everyone according to these churches finds the way. Everyone gets a RIP on instagram.

Lastly some of the things you listed aren't secular values lol...
 
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W2L

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Paul was apolitical, he was spreading the Gospel not trying to change the world. Paul gave up his life on earth, he counted all things as a loss.

About your main query, I believe in following the law of love which is taught by the Lords apostles. Love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies and do good for them. Thats what the Church needs to practice and preach.


Who said anything about politics? Doctrine and politics are two different things.


The love of God is taught in the Bible and the Quran, you're right. It's also not the only thing in there, however it's the easiest thing to not follow any doctrine and wave it off as okay because of God's love. Love isn't structureless, God told us how to live our lives. To love him is to obey him no matter how difficult or unpopular it is.[/QUOTE]
You said Paul was trying to change the world, (which would require politics). You are also talking about adding secular ideas to the Church, although Paul teaches us that believers and unbelievers have no agreement or fellowship. Your whole game plan here sounds political, at least to me is does anyway.
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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Christians and Muslims dont believe in the same Jesus. Muslims dont believe hes Gods son. Right?


We believe in the same Jesus (pbuh), born to the Virgin Mary. We also believe that he is the Messiah, and the Word (Logos would be the equivalent Christian term) who was sent to bring the revelation to the world, he ascended to heaven alive and will return to defeat the Antichrist in the End Times. The Muslim view is that Jesus as God is something that arose after his death, when a cult grew around him and corrupted his message.
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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He wanted to change the behavior of the people to change the world, I don't see how that's political? That's called being a preacher.


You have a farcical definition of political, and seem to think that any concept of doctrine or proper practice is politics. No, my friend, its religion. Of course it makes a person feel less bad to just wave all doctrine and behavior off as "politics" and act like a modern man, while excusing it with God's love. How ridiculous!
Who said anything about politics? Doctrine and politics are two different things.


The love of God is taught in the Bible and the Quran, you're right. It's also not the only thing in there, however it's the easiest thing to not follow any doctrine and wave it off as okay because of God's love. Love isn't structureless, God told us how to live our lives. To love him is to obey him no matter how difficult or unpopular it is.
You said Paul was trying to change the world, (which would require politics). You are also talking about adding secular ideas to the Church, although Paul teaches us that believers and unbelievers have no agreement or fellowship. Your whole game plan here sounds political, at least to me is does anyway.[/QUOTE]
 
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Even the most conservative, traditional expressions of Christianity like Russian Orthodoxy or the Catholic Latin mass and self proclaimed restorationist evangelicals do this.


What I'm talking about is things like:


- The mixing of men and women in church

- Lack of modesty amongst women (hair exposed, body shape exposed because of trousers)


- Women speaking above men and having authority over men


- The fact that homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism are even things up for discussion among some churches


- The mandating of male monogamy (that a man is only permitted to have one wife)


- The unequivocal condemnation of things explicitly allowed in the Bible, like slavery (you can be disgusted by the thought of ever having slaves — I am —, but why should man condemn it when God allowed it?)


I was raised Christian and this is what really struck me when I was rediscovering religion, how much Christians have shifted their morality to keep up with the secular world. It's a loosing game. Good morality is never popular, secular society is never going to accept it. What first attracted me to Islam as a teenager, before I knew anything about it, was how dedicated Muslims are to the faith. They still follow the exact same rules given in the Quran 1400 years ago, and adapt their understanding of right and wrong to the book; Christians adapt the book to their secular/worldly understanding of right and wrong. The Bible specifically gives men authority over women, mandates sex segregation and modesty but that doesn't sit well with the secular world so you see women preachers and pastors, unrelated men and women sitting next to one another in the pews, women in blouses and trousers where you can see their body. I go to a mosque and I see men and women separated, as the Quran, the Bible and Jewish Torah commanded. A church will only allow a man to have one wife, even though polygamy is the norm in the Bible, in Islam I am entitled to have 4 wives and nobody can ever take that right away from me etc etc.


Of course, these aren't the only things that attracted me to Islam. I felt that it answered the multitude of questions that Christianity left me with in a much more logical way, that the Islamic Jesus and Mary seemed much more true than the gospel accounts written decades after their death by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew and so much more. However I don't want get into an argument about the narrative and doctrinal differences, I just wanted to ask Christians, what do you think about the adoption of modern secular "values" by most churches?


Let's be respectful of one another! I love you all.


Sincerely,


A young English Muslim
Your interpretations of Christianity are in error. I'm not clear on how you determine "secular values" and "most churches."
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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A man can only have one wife in this country because we have laws here that protect people who are too stupid to protect themselves.


Since when is "secular law" a synonym for "good and proper," furthermore in any western country you just marry one wife with the state and cohabitate with the others after a purely religious ceremony. In the UK, the legal benefits of marriage only have to do with decision making at the end of life and immigration. The former can be dealt with by a simple contract.


If you're a Christian, why would you think polygamy is immoral, since it's in the Bible?

I'll probably only have 1 wife, because I want one person. If I did want another, that's my religious right in Islam. It's in the Bible as well.
 
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JESUS=G.O.A.T

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Since when is "secular law" a synonym for "good and proper," furthermore in any western country you just marry one wife with the state and cohabitate with the others after a purely religious ceremony. In the UK, the legal benefits of marriage only have to do with decision making at the end of life and immigration. The former can be dealt with by a simple contract.


If you're a Christian, why would you think polygamy is immoral, since it's in the Bible?

I'll probably only have 1 wife, because I want one person. If I did want another, that's my religious right in Islam. It's in the Bible as well.

I mean sin is in the bible...i'm not sure what you're getting at. Also in the NT which is where we live... it's made clear in corinthians one man...one woman. And made clear in Romans 1:16-28 or so...anything else isn't correct.
 
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Walk the Straight Path

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Your interpretations of Christianity are in error. I'm not clear on how you determine "secular values" and "most churches."


Secular values are values that have no basis in religion, but instead on the secular ideals of the post-enlightenment era.


I said most Christians, and I stand by that. The only Christian sect I can think of that even observes basic ideas of modesty and sex segregation are the Amish and Mennonites, not even 1%. Certainly not Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans or Lutherans (75% of all Christians)
 
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In the Quran, slavery is talked about negatively and it's considered a great blessing to free slaves. However, slavery is never explicitly banned in either the Quran or Bible and on the contrary there are instances of God explicitly allowing slavery. Slavery should be discouraged, absolutely. But can we say that it's a sin, and terribly wrong, if God allowed it?


If the Bible is right, Paul didn't care about the way of the world. He was out to change it.
You do not understand Paul's purpose and ministry. You do not know how to Spiritually divide the OT from the NT. Therefore, your conclusions are in error.
 
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