Flat Earth V.S Round Earth? (Also helio/geocentrism)

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John Hyperspace

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The problem with this immediately is that Genesis 1 discusses earth, heavens, and the beginning: in short He is discussing the creation of time, space, and matter in ten short words of v. 1. We see heaven and earth. We also observe light and darkness and evening and morning. We also see the sun, moon, and stars in their respective places. We see the waters above and below. We see the animals and mankind. We even see the seven day weekly cyle on our calendars: and on the 7th Day God santified that day and blessed it and rested from all His works on the previous six days. God is not one for empty talk or flattering words. Not only is man made from the dust of the ground (physical) he also has the breath of life from God (spiritual).

In the beginning. We look at that and you may say "Literally" and I say "Okay, but I perceive that literality as irrelevant" In the beginning:

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

So, in the beginning I see Christ.

Let there be light:

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light

Yes, one can look at Genesis literally. I say, that is irrelevant. Not only irrelevant, but impossible to literally comprehend with any meaningful probability. The spiritual is the only thing that matters:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 
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John Hyperspace

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How is it that people get so caught up in the spiritual as if it is some type of metaphor or allegorical explanation? The body and spirit are one and inseperable one from the other. The spirit is still something literal. Yes you are correct that there is more than physical blindness. But, the way you are going on about it is to dismiss the physical as if it somehow has no significance.

The only significance of the physical is as a metaphor. If I am communicating abstract ideas to you, and I hold up a physical object and say "It's like this physical object": once you grasp the idea conveyed by the physical, the physical is now irrelevant: I have communicated to you that invisible through that visible; now that visible is no longer of concern.

I believe "spirit" means "abstract" and a spirit is not literal, any more than "justice" is literal.
 
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JacksBratt

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Here are some other questions that may open your mind a bit..

1/We are orbiting the sun which is moving though space as it spins in a huge galaxy.
So, why, with all this spinning and moving through space, has Polaris maintained the exact same spot in our night sky? Not to mention that none of the constellations have altered their patterns and places in 6000 years of spinning and rotating and orbiting as we fly through space in a huge galaxy.

2/ Since we only see the stars at night and it is night when we face away from the sun. Why do we not see different stars, a different array of heavenly bodies from one half of the year to the next. In winter we are on one side of the sun facing one way and the night sky is, let's say... left. Now in summer, we are on the other side of the sun and the night sky is ... right..... we should see a totally different star field. The night sky should change.

3/ We orbit the sun. The moon orbits us. Yet they follow the exact same path across the sky. They are the exact same size. There pattern has not changed even one slight bit as they are clock work perfect for keeping their timing and the moon phases over millennia.

4/The crescent moon. You know the one that looks like a toenail... Now think this through. It's up at night. You can only see a sliver yet the sun is supposed to be where it gets it's light... Now think. If you had a ball and a flashlight and you were in a dark room... where would you have to shine the light from in order to shine on the ball so that you could only see a sliver of light?

You would have to be illuminating the other 90% of the ball and the flashlight would be shining in your eyes.....

Yet, the sun has set and you see a dark sky and only 10% of the moon is reflecting light toward you.... the angles are all wrong for that.


5/ It has been proven that sunlight is hotter than it's shadow... correct?
Did you know that moonlight is cooler than it's shadow? Sunlight heats or warms. Moonlight cools...

Not only that but sunlight kills bacteria and can be used to dry meat and disinfect moldy clothes.... BUT, moonlight aids in decay and causes things to rot....

How can this "opposite" light be from a reflection of the sun?

People.... things are not as they seem. The universe is not what you think.

Keep searching and learning.
 
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JacksBratt

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Do you think the credibility of the Church is really hurt by present day flat earthers? I mean, how many of them are there?
LOL really? Thing is, they are not all Christians or associated with the church. The flat earth club, if you want to call it that, is growing and growing fast...

Just before Christmas I was driving home and wouldn't ya know it, someone had put up signs all over my township, that state, simply..."the earth is flat"
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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In the beginning. We look at that and you may say "Literally" and I say "Okay, but I perceive that literality as irrelevant" In the beginning:

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

So, in the beginning I see Christ.

Let there be light:

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light

Yes, one can look at Genesis literally. I say, that is irrelevant. Not only irrelevant, but impossible to literally comprehend with any meaningful probability. The spiritual is the only thing that matters:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
John also says that all things were created by Christ literally and that there was nothing we see that was not made: therefore everything had their beginning and end in Christ. Genesis 1 explains in detail how that happened; John connected Genesis with Revelation with Jesus' statement:

"The first will be last and the last first."
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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God isn't judging anybody on this nonsense.

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
-Matthew 12:37

Better watch those careless words...those words are straight from Jesus who is God...
 
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JackRT

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A good example of "cognitive dissonance" would be when you have been taught that something is true and believed it to be true your whole life, but then observe something or are taught something that negates that truth and you have stress due to the new observation being sound but you believe whole heatedly in your long believed truth. Your mind is in conflict and refuses to accept the new observation based on an ingrained long held belief.

Very good definition. I was being far to specific and narrow. Thank you.
 
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"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
-Matthew 12:37

Better watch those careless words...those words are straight from Jesus who is God...

yeah...no.

God: sorry man. you believed in Jesus and fought the flesh and followed the spirit the best you could, but you didn't believe the earth was flat so no Kingdom for you. As it says in the scriptures...'thought that does not believe in the flat earth, shall be damned!'

Sane person: It says that in the scriptures?! dang..missed that part!
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Very good definition. I was being far to specific and narrow. Thank you.
And you two would agree that the Pharisees and Sadducees (educated and learned) suffered from cognitive dissonance when they realized that the teachings from their teachers that did not line up with what God said from the beginning?
 
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christianpessimist

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Ahhh, there it is. I was waiting for this.

This is the final nail in the coffin for the death of your argument. Any argument, dealing with the bible, that ends with " well, it ain't necessary for my salvation" is dead.

We, as Christians, cannot pick and choose which scripture verses we want to take as truth and which to take as myth and which to be allegorical or parable based on whether or not it makes sense in the realms of science or natural phenomenon.

We believe that Christ was born of a virgin, turned water to wine, walked on water, healed blind men, crippled people, sent demons into a heard of pigs, fed more than 5000 people with a couple of fish and five loaves of bread. He died and rose again, ate food and had the wounds of the crucifixion.

All of this is against all natural phenomenon, science and rational reason... Yet we believe. We believe because if we don't....... we have no hope, we are lost, we are destined to Hell.

BUT.......... we can toss out anything else the bible tells us, if it contradicts science, causes contradiction to rational thought or gets us ridiculed by "educated" people......all because it doesn't affect my salvation.....

How Sad........
You misunderstood me. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. Many genuine Christians have subscribed to one or the other. It's important to know what the bible says and abide by it. But our own interpretations can be flawed wouldn't you agree? I don't reduce miracles down to science. Jesus turned water in to wine. I accept that. I don't have to figure out some chemical process that must have happened. He just did it. I was responding to someone who seemed to be saying that if you don't accept the flat earth, then you aren't saved. But maybe I was misunderstanding him.

Yes, these things matter. But they aren't what saves you. When the thief on the cross was saved, he didn't say "But Jesus, I don't understand this or that". He just saw who Jesus was and believed. That's all I'm saying.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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yeah...no.

God: sorry man. you believed in Jesus and fought the flesh and followed the spirit the best you could, but you didn't believe the earth was flat so no Kingdom for you. As it says in the scriptures...'thought that does not believe in the flat earth, shall be damned!'

Sane person: It says that in the scriptures?! dang..missed that part!
Paul also says that he would not have know about covetous had not the law said:

"Thou shalt not covet."

We see then that knowledge of the scripture lets us know what is acceptable and unacceptable. God is not interested in lip service and does not exuse for ignorance of the law.
 
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Paul also says that he would not have know about covetous had not the law said:

"Thou shalt not covet."

We see then that knowledge of the scripture lets us know what is acceptable and unacceptable. God is not interested in lip service and does not exuse for ignorance of the law.

No idea what you're saying here. Maybe you quoted the wrong post?

:)
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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You misunderstood me. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. Many genuine Christians have subscribed to one or the other. It's important to know what the bible says and abide by it. But our own interpretations can be flawed wouldn't you agree? I don't reduce miracles down to science. Jesus turned water in to wine. I accept that. I don't have to figure out some chemical process that must have happened. He just did it. I was responding to someone who seemed to be saying that if you don't accept the flat earth, then you aren't saved. But maybe I was misunderstanding him.

Yes, these things matter. But they aren't what saves you. When the thief on the cross was saved, he didn't say "But Jesus, I don't understand this or that". He just saw who Jesus was and believed. That's all I'm saying.
The thief also died shortly after He accpeted Christ. And keep in mind that when the thief accpeted Christ that He wa forgiven of all that he did and formerly believed which was false: the thief died shortly after so he did not lose his place as far as we know since scripture indicates that he sinned no more.
 
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christianpessimist

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2/ Since we only see the stars at night and it is night when we face away from the sun. Why do we not see different stars, a different array of heavenly bodies from one half of the year to the next. In winter we are on one side of the sun facing one way and the night sky is, let's say... left. Now in summer, we are on the other side of the sun and the night sky is ... right..... we should see a totally different star field. The night sky should change.

Well it does change. constellations don't stay in the same place as the year goes on, and other stuff comes in to view.
 
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