Flat Earth V.S Round Earth? (Also helio/geocentrism)

Status
Not open for further replies.

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
The same way I'm concerned with the ability of Jesus to spiritually heal the spiritually blind spiritual eyes, and not concerned with the ability to carnally heal carnal blindness. I am not concerned with carnal signs; I am concerned with the spiritual thing which the carnal points. Much like I have little concern with road signs once I have reached the destination to which they guide.
Ah yes, and 5,000 people converted in one day because of spiritual blindness being cured and a man who was literally not able to walk was made able to walk in the literal sight of everyone...this is the problem with people who lead their interpretations with allegory instead of literalism: they fail to see where literalism begins and ends.

I don't doubt the scripture. I may doubt your personal interpretation of the scripture: but I don't doubt scripture.
Scripture is not given by personal or private interpretation.

It also says the earth has four corners; a circle doesn't have four corners, a square has four corners. I believe you are mistakenly taking metaphor and figurative language literally.
My son could have told you that a circle has no sharp edges either. If the earth has four corners and that it is a circle then what is so hard in envisioning a circular earth set on a square with a domed shape over it? Igloos wouldn't be too far off from this though, they are not the best representation of what I am describing. And when we say earth don't we also include the islands along with the continents? It stands that the Bible discussing the dry land (which God named earth) which is a circle and the square which it sits on is including the whole structure as earth.

At any rate; the sun disappears below the horizon and is no longer visible until the next day; not through a telescope. Thus I must on grounds of reason reject your flat earth hypothesis.
I never bought up the whole disappearing thing so, don't include me witht he rest of the bunch. If anything that theory or experiment would disprove the some of the claims of globe earth defenders.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You really have not thought this through.
I must admit that I have not been to the southern hemisphere. I have not witnessed this phenomenon. So, it's just in my head that I cannot see how the sun can rise in the east and set in the west all over this earth, travel the same direction to do this, the stars move the same direction, yet all of a sudden they move the opposite direction as up here.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The argument I like best is when they say the earth can't be a sphere because if you pour water on a ball it all runs down and falls off. Perfectly funny proof.
I have never heard anyone say such a thing. It would be completely unscientific.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
How does a satellite orbit over a flat earth? This would violate just about every one of the observable and experimentally verified laws of motion.
I have seen interviews with people in the military that state that all GPS is actually ground based.

I have no proof of this and it is one of the questions that I personally have in regards to the flat earth model. Another one, similar, is satellite TV.

The thing is, these satellites that are used for TV are in a geosynchronous orbit. To do this they must be 22,000 miles away. Yet the temperatures in that area of space are higher than the melting point of the metals used in the production and function of the satellites.

The more I look, the more questions I find.
 
Upvote 0

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Understanding the shape of the Earth isn't a necessary doctrine for salvation.

You do understand that those words from Jesus are alluding to one of the Ten Commandments which says:

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."

This means we are not to carelessly speak empty words and expect that we will not be judged by the words we speak.
 
Upvote 0

I'm_Sorry

Taking a break from CF
Supporter
Oct 18, 2016
1,749
1,170
Australia
✟130,897.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Geocentrism by definition entails a spherical earth. Geocentrism, though a fringe movement, is at least a thing, but flat-earthism only seems to exist on the internet. There were only two figures in church history that advocated for a flat earth, and as far as I know no flat earth books have been published since 1900.

At the center of the universe correct?
 
Upvote 0

John Hyperspace

UnKnown ReMember
Oct 3, 2016
2,385
1,272
53
Hyperspace
✟35,143.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ah yes, and 5,000 people converted in one day because of spiritual blindness being cured and a man who was literally not able to walk was made able to walk in the literal sight of everyone...this is the problem with people who lead their interpretations with allegory instead of literalism: they fail to see where literalism begins and ends.

For me, literalisms ended long ago.

Scripture is not given by personal or private interpretation.

That's one way to translate the verse.

My son could have told you that a circle has no sharp edges either. If the earth has four corners and that it is a circle then what is so hard in envisioning a circular earth set on a square with a domed shape over it? Igloos wouldn't be too far off from this though, they are not the best representation of what I am describing. And when we say earth don't we also include the islands along with the continents? It stands that the Bible discussing the dry land (which God named earth) which is a circle and the square which it sits on is including the whole structure as earth.

It's not difficult to imagine a star-shaped earth riding on the back of a unicorn. Ability to "envision" doesn't equate to truth.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You have been misinformed. To be blunt, that translates as "you have been lied to".
There are well based sites on the internet that describe this affect and the scientists reaction as they try to explain it. It is not misinformation or lies.

Eclipses affect the direction and or motion of the Foucault pendulum. If the pendulum was behaving as it does due to the rotation of the earth, as purported, then an eclipse would have no effect. Only a change in the earths rotation would have any effect. Thus, there are other forces moving the pendulum.
 
Upvote 0

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Understanding the shape of the Earth isn't a necessary doctrine for salvation.

You do understand that Jesus is alluding to one of the Ten Commandments which says:

"Though shalt not bear false witness."

And the Bible does not look kindly upon false witnesses in court as a witness must have direct or circumstantial evidence to back up their testimony:

"If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
-Deuteronomy 19:16-21
 
Upvote 0

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
For me, literalisms ended long ago.
Did that happen figuratively or literally? You see, I have no problem with allegory for it always points to a literal truth. The problem I do have is it leading Biblical interpretation which leads to mass confusion. It is much better to lead with literalism and follow with allegory. I go by the principle:

"Be strict in context and flexible in application."

In this way we are able to remember that the when reading the Bible allegory has broad applications on many subjects but, the Bible is still the literal subject.

That's one way to translate the verse.
I believe you mean to say that I have one perspective on it. Of course that means nothing if my view is obscured, blocked, or out of focus.

It's not difficult to imagine a star-shaped earth riding on the back of a unicorn. Ability to "envision" doesn't equate to truth.
No it's not but, when we take the evidence from the Bible and measure up all things in the world against it we begin to see which is in agreement with the Bible and which is not.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

John Hyperspace

UnKnown ReMember
Oct 3, 2016
2,385
1,272
53
Hyperspace
✟35,143.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I always feel the need to say: bear in mind, I'm not saying "None of the bible ever literally happened" but I'm saying, the literal is merely intended as a form of literal metaphor; a "picture book" of earthly shadows conveying spiritual images.

Also, that there is no possible way to know the actual literal happenings in any meaningful way, or, with any meaningful probability. Meaning, Genesis 1 as 7 literal 24-hour day periods? 7 literal aeons. Ex nihilo creation? Gap theory? Big bang reiteration? None of these can be determined from the Hebrew with any meaningful probability. Thus, in the end, if God is a good Teacher (I believe so) then He cannot intend the literal understanding to have relevance since it cannot be meaningfully determined. Thus, God must only desire spiritual understanding of the account, as form of metaphor.
 
Upvote 0

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Hello JackRT,

I believe that "cognitive dissonance" is not when your biblical views are in conflict with science. Atheists can have cognitive dissonance.

A good example of "cognitive dissonance" would be when you have been taught that something is true and believed it to be true your whole life, but then observe something or are taught something that negates that truth and you have stress due to the new observation being sound but you believe whole heatedly in your long believed truth. Your mind is in conflict and refuses to accept the new observation based on an ingrained long held belief.

For me, the globe or flat earth being true will not destroy my faith. What the flat earth would do would be to put into question the depth of the corruption in the governments of this world. It would destroy evolution. It would probably start mass hysteria around the world.
Why should the mass corruption suprise you when the Bible tells us not to follow after the majority to do evil? And didn't Jesus say that the broad way leads to destruction and there be many thereat which find but, the narrow road leads to life and few there be that find it?
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Understanding the shape of the Earth isn't a necessary doctrine for salvation.
Ahhh, there it is. I was waiting for this.

This is the final nail in the coffin for the death of your argument. Any argument, dealing with the bible, that ends with " well, it ain't necessary for my salvation" is dead.

We, as Christians, cannot pick and choose which scripture verses we want to take as truth and which to take as myth and which to be allegorical or parable based on whether or not it makes sense in the realms of science or natural phenomenon.

We believe that Christ was born of a virgin, turned water to wine, walked on water, healed blind men, crippled people, sent demons into a heard of pigs, fed more than 5000 people with a couple of fish and five loaves of bread. He died and rose again, ate food and had the wounds of the crucifixion.

All of this is against all natural phenomenon, science and rational reason... Yet we believe. We believe because if we don't....... we have no hope, we are lost, we are destined to Hell.

BUT.......... we can toss out anything else the bible tells us, if it contradicts science, causes contradiction to rational thought or gets us ridiculed by "educated" people......all because it doesn't affect my salvation.....

How Sad........
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Why should the mass corruption suprise you when the Bible tells us not to follow after the majority to do evil? And didn't Jesus say that the broad way leads to destruction and there be many thereat which find but, the narrow road leads to life and few there be that find it?
That is my cognitive dissonance... I have believed all of these sources to be truthful and reliable. Now we are finding chinks in the armor and holes in the stories that do not add up.
 
Upvote 0

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I always feel the need to say: bear in mind, I'm not saying "None of the bible ever literally happened" but I'm saying, the literal is merely intended as a form of literal metaphor; a "picture book" of earthly shadows conveying spiritual images.

Also, that there is no possible way to know the actual literal happenings in any meaningful way, or, with any meaningful probability. Meaning, Genesis 1 as 7 literal 24-hour day periods? 7 literal aeons. Ex nihilo creation? Gap theory? Big bang reiteration? None of these can be determined from the Hebrew with any meaningful probability. Thus, in the end, if God is a good Teacher (I believe so) then He cannot intend the literal understanding to have relevance since it cannot be meaningfully determined. Thus, God must only desire spiritual understanding of the account, as form of metaphor.
The problem with this immediately is that Genesis 1 discusses earth, heavens, and the beginning: in short He is discussing the creation of time, space, and matter in ten short words of v. 1. We see heaven and earth. We also observe light and darkness and evening and morning. We also see the sun, moon, and stars in their respective places. We see the waters above and below. We see the animals and mankind. We even see the seven day weekly cyle on our calendars: and on the 7th Day God santified that day and blessed it and rested from all His works on the previous six days. God is not one for empty talk or flattering words. Not only is man made from the dust of the ground (physical) he also has the breath of life from God (spiritual).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Geocentrism by definition entails a spherical earth. Geocentrism, though a fringe movement, is at least a thing, but flat-earthism only seems to exist on the internet. There were only two figures in church history that advocated for a flat earth, and as far as I know no flat earth books have been published since 1900.
You need to do some more research. The church believed in a flat earth until Copernicus brought it up. The church only changed in order to save embarrassment of not being able to prove otherwise. How could they? Today, the debate has resurfaced and there are many who are starting to question it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dither
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,168
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,223,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Oh, please. The already shaky credibility of the church is only hurt by denying the well established fact that the earth is a sphere.
Do you think the credibility of the Church is really hurt by present day flat earthers? I mean, how many of them are there?
 
Upvote 0

John Hyperspace

UnKnown ReMember
Oct 3, 2016
2,385
1,272
53
Hyperspace
✟35,143.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Did that happen figuratively or literally? You see, I have no problem with allegory for it always points to a literal truth. The problem I do have is it leading Biblical interpretation which leads to mass confusion. It is much better to lead with literalism and follow with allegory. I go by the principle:

"Be strict in context and flexible in application."

In this way we are able to remember that the when reading the Bible allegory has broad applications on many subjects but, the Bible is still the literal subject.

What I mean is I believe the literal is irrelevant but to point to the spiritual. Seeing Jesus literally give sight to the literal blind is a sign not intended to cause the seer to say "He can heal the carnal eyes" but to the spiritual seer "His teachings open the spiritual eyes; this carnal sign confirms that": the carnal/earthly is just a sign pointing in the direction of the goal. Those at the goal have no further need of the signs.

I believe you mean to say that I have one perspective on it. Of course that means nothing if my view is obscured, blocked, or out of focus.

I can't be certain whether your understanding of the letter is right or wrong. I can say that as I'm lead that verse is saying something like "no prophecy had its source in the prophet" "no prophecy unfolded out of the man speaking it" but is saying, prophecy was from God, not from the man speaking it. Nothing to do with people interpreting scripture.

No it's not but, when we take the evidence from the Bible and measure up all things in the world against it we begin to see which is in agreement with the Bible and which is not.

I have no use at all for the world except as a world of physical metaphors teaching me spiritual things.
 
Upvote 0

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
You need to do some more research. The church believed in a flat earth until Copernicus brought it up. The church only changed in order to save embarrassment of not being able to prove otherwise. How could they? Today, the debate has resurfaced and there are many who are starting to question it.

Do you think the credibility of the Church is really hurt by present day flat earthers? I mean, how many of them are there?
Samuel and Hoseah prophesies clearly on this:

"Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the YHWH is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed."
-1 Samuel 2:3

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

-Hoseah 4:6
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YHWH_will_uplift

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 31, 2016
1,402
364
36
California
✟163,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
What I mean is I believe the literal is irrelevant but to point to the spiritual. Seeing Jesus literally give sight to the literal blind is a sign not intended to cause the seer to say "He can heal the carnal eyes" but to the spiritual seer "His teachings open the spiritual eyes; this carnal sign confirms that": the carnal/earthly is just a sign pointing in the direction of the goal. Those at the goal have no further need of the signs.



I can't be certain whether your understanding of the letter is right or wrong. I can say that as I'm lead that verse is saying something like "no prophecy had its source in the prophet" "no prophecy unfolded out of the man speaking it" but is saying, prophecy was from God, not from the man speaking it. Nothing to do with people interpreting scripture.



I have no use at all for the world except as a world of physical metaphors teaching me spiritual things.

How is it that people get so caught up in the spiritual as if it is some type of metaphor or allegorical explanation? The body and spirit are one and inseperable one from the other. The spirit is still something literal. Yes you are correct that there is more than physical blindness. But, the way you are going on about it is to dismiss the physical as if it somehow has no significance.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.