Flat Earth V.S Round Earth? (Also helio/geocentrism)

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John Hyperspace

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Step one: Prove the curve.

Well, you're pretty much saying, "Let's not talk about the big thing that refutes the notion; let's talk about the little things that don't refute it." Like I said before, I have no proverbial dog in this proverbial fight. I don't know for certain what shape the earth is, and to me it doesn't even matter. This topic is trivial, irrelevant and meaningless to me. I would have zero problem with accepting evidences. Which is why I have zero problem saying "Can't see the sun after it sets not with a camera, nor with binoculars, not with a telescope. Conclusion: sun not continuously above flat earth; flat earth rejected."

I certainly won't stand in anyone's way if they want to believe a flat earth; I won't mock you, nor disparage you. But, I also won't believe you.
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Well, you're pretty much saying, "Let's not talk about the big thing that refutes the notion; let's talk about the little things that don't refute it." Like I said before, I have no proverbial dog in this proverbial fight. I don't know for certain what shape the earth is, and to me it doesn't even matter. This topic is trivial, irrelevant and meaningless to me. I would have zero problem with accepting evidences. Which is why I have zero problem saying "Can't see the sun after it sets not with a camera, nor with binoculars, not with a telescope. Conclusion: sun not continuously above flat earth; flat earth rejected."

I certainly won't stand in anyone's way if they want to believe a flat earth; I won't mock you, nor disparage you. But, I also won't believe you.

That's Ok,

Let me ask from another angle.

4th day of creation.

It disproves heliocentricm biblically.

Your thoughts?
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Honestly, carnal/physical/material things do not concern me at all. They are irrelevent. But, they can be discussed. I sometimes enjoy indulging in a bit of, trivial propositioning.



I'm not able to discern what you're trying to say here. What I was saying was that, on a flat earth, there could be no sunset/sunrise; but I observe both, so conclude the earth is not flat. In old times, people weren't aware that when it was dark in their region, it was light in another region. Thus they could believe a flat earth (if they did) because the sunset could be explained as the sun, going down into his chamber for the night. But today, we know that there is always light and always a sun in the sky. The sun can no longer go down into his chamber to explain flat earth since the sun is always in the sky above, someone.

Thus the sun is always in the sky, so on a flat earth it would never set; at most it would growing smaller until it vanished; but it would not "set" below a "horizon".
How can you not be concerned about the physical things which God made for us? How can you in contradiction to scripture say the sun 'never sets or rise on Model xyz' but, 'always rises and sets on model abc': and then ignore the plain teachings about our universe in the Bible from God? He says that the sun rises and sets: the moon was appointed for seasons: and the sun knoweth his going down: isn't that clear language that when the moon rises in the east that the sun sets in the west? The Bible never says the earth is a globe but, rather a circle.
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Maybe the universe didn't function as it does now until it was all completed.

Can you extrapolate on that idea?

You know the flood over the whole earth works if the Earth is not a sphere.

I made the decision to stay in faith when I was debating the flood nearly 10 years ago.

My Faith in the bible as God's Word hasn't let me down.
 
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John Hyperspace

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That's Ok,

Let me ask from another angle.

4th day of creation.

It disproves heliocentricm biblically.

Your thoughts?

As I said earlier, helio/geocentricism is an entirely different proposition. In all honesty, I cannot determine if the earth is moving around something, or, if everything else is moving around the earth, in any meaningful way due to a relativistic frame of reference. Not enough information to formulate an adequate hypothesis.

After study of the Hebrew account of Genesis I conclude there is no way to literally interpret the account in any meaningful or probable way; thus the account becomes meaningless except when understood as metaphor of spiritual things.
 
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I'm_Sorry

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As I said earlier, helio/geocentricism is an entirely different proposition. In all honesty, I cannot determine if the earth is moving around something, or, if everything else is moving around the earth in any meaningful way due to a relativistic frame of reference. Not enough information to formulate an adequate hypothesis.

After study of the Hebrew account of Genesis I conclude there is no way to literally interpret the account in any meaningful or probable way; thus the account becomes meaningless except when understood as metaphor of spiritual things.

The sun and the moon are within the firmament according to genesis correct?

I really cant speak on

"After study of the Hebrew account of Genesis I conclude there is no way to literally interpret the account in any meaningful or probable way; thus the account becomes meaningless except when understood as metaphor of spiritual things"

I'm not of that faith.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Maybe the universe didn't function as it does now until it was all completed.
This is why knowing and mastering the beginning of the book (i.e. basics) will allow us to move onto the middle (i.e. intermediate) of the book and finally reach the end (i.e. advanced) of the book. The universe cannot operate differently than how God programmed it to operate. In like fashion if I were to write a software program then I would expect the software I designed to carry out the program I designated for it. If this does not happen then either I messed up in writing my script or the actors were not following my directions.
 
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christianpessimist

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Can you extrapolate on that idea?

You know the flood over the whole earth works if the Earth is not a sphere.

I made the decision to stay in faith when I was debating the flood nearly 10 years ago.

My Faith in the bible as God's Word hasn't let me down.
I'm saying maybe god was lighting the world himself before he put the sun in to place. And maybe the earth was just sort of hanging there in empty space. He had all the pieces made, but it wasn't assembled yet - so to speak.
 
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I'm_Sorry

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I'm saying maybe god was lighting the world himself before he put the sun in to place. And maybe the earth was just sort of hanging there in empty space. He had all the pieces made, but it wasn't assembled yet - so to speak.

Even so can you marry genesis chronology with science theory?

I don't think you can, I believe this has been a grave error of the Church.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Well, you're pretty much saying, "Let's not talk about the big thing that refutes the notion; let's talk about the little things that don't refute it." Like I said before, I have no proverbial dog in this proverbial fight. I don't know for certain what shape the earth is, and to me it doesn't even matter. This topic is trivial, irrelevant and meaningless to me. I would have zero problem with accepting evidences. Which is why I have zero problem saying "Can't see the sun after it sets not with a camera, nor with binoculars, not with a telescope. Conclusion: sun not continuously above flat earth; flat earth rejected."

I certainly won't stand in anyone's way if they want to believe a flat earth; I won't mock you, nor disparage you. But, I also won't believe you.
You can't remain neutral brother for Jesus tells us plainly:

"By your words will ye be justified and by your words will ye be condemned."


That's like saying I don't disagree with religion: I just don't think we need it.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Even so can you marry genesis chronology with science theory?

I don't think you can, I believe this has been a grave error of the Church.
I would add a minor detail from our brother Paul in his epistle Timothy: we cannot marry Genesis chronolgy with falsely called science:

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."
-1 Timothy 6:20
 
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christianpessimist

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You can't remain neutral brother for Jesus tells us plainly:

"By your words will ye be justified and by your words will ye be condemned."


That's like saying I don't disagree with religion: I just don't think we need it.

Understanding the shape of the Earth isn't a necessary doctrine for salvation.
 
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John Hyperspace

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How can you not be concerned about the physical things which God made for us?

The same way I'm concerned with the ability of Jesus to spiritually heal the spiritually blind spiritual eyes, and not concerned with the ability to carnally heal carnal blindness. I am not concerned with carnal signs; I am concerned with the spiritual thing which the carnal points. Much like I have little concern with road signs once I have reached the destination to which they guide.

How can you in contradiction to scripture say the sun 'never sets or rise on Model xyz' but, 'always rises and sets on model abc': and then ignore the plain teachings about our universe in the Bible from God?

I don't doubt the scripture. I may doubt your personal interpretation of the scripture: but I don't doubt scripture.

The Bible never says the earth is a globe but, rather a circle.

It also says the earth has four corners; a circle doesn't have four corners, a square has four corners. I believe you are mistakenly taking metaphor and figurative language literally.

At any rate; the sun disappears below the horizon and is no longer visible until the next day; not through a telescope. Thus I must on grounds of reason reject your flat earth hypothesis.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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As I said earlier, helio/geocentricism is an entirely different proposition. In all honesty, I cannot determine if the earth is moving around something, or, if everything else is moving around the earth, in any meaningful way due to a relativistic frame of reference. Not enough information to formulate an adequate hypothesis.

After study of the Hebrew account of Genesis I conclude there is no way to literally interpret the account in any meaningful or probable way; thus the account becomes meaningless except when understood as metaphor of spiritual things.

If that is the case then how can you believe it to speak of God literally creating all things whether you believe they were six literal days or not?

In addition to your frame of reference argument I was in the subway with my son and the train was moving at x MPH while the lights were moving at 0 MPH: so was the train moving or the lights? My son rightly concluded that the train was in motion while the lights were at rest.
 
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John Hyperspace

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You can't remain neutral brother for Jesus tells us plainly:

"By your words will ye be justified and by your words will ye be condemned."


That's like saying I don't disagree with religion: I just don't think we need it.

I agree with that verse you cite.
 
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John Hyperspace

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If that is the case then how can you believe it to speak of God literally creating all things whether you believe they were six literal days or not?

I believe Genesis is conveying a spiritual creation; whether or not it is literal is irrelevant. The carnal/earthly things are only of interest to the carnal/earthly-minded. To the spiritually-minded, they are irrelevant.

In addition to your frame of reference argument I was in the subway with my son and the train was moving at x MPH while the lights were moving at 0 MPH: so was the train moving or the lights? My son rightly concluded that the train was in motion while the lights were at rest.

Your son had the advantage of knowing for fact the lights were stationary in relation to the train. A person determining whether or not sun/earth are stationary does not have that information. Thus your anecdote is a false analogy.
 
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I'm_Sorry

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Understanding the shape of the Earth isn't a necessary doctrine for salvation.

It maybe to avoid the mark.

If its a lie, its the biggest one I know of.

Everything falls apart, geology, cosmology, evolution.

The shape of the earth and the centric sun are the pillars of scientism.
 
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JacksBratt

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First, let me say that I am a retired scientist, mathematician and educator and also a Christian of very long standing. A small number of my fellow Christians seem to suffer from what is known as "cognitive dissonance". This is a form of mental stress caused when your religious beliefs do not correspond with scientific reality. It is very obvious to me that the biblical cosmology (world view) was of a flat earth with a sky dome overhead. This, of course, conflicts with the modern scientific understanding. These Christians feel that letting go of this biblical understanding will be the thin edge of the wedge that could potentially destroy their faith. This is not the case for the majority of Christians who do not take the bible as being either to be literally understood or inerrant.
Hello JackRT,

I believe that "cognitive dissonance" is not when your biblical views are in conflict with science. Atheists can have cognitive dissonance.

A good example of "cognitive dissonance" would be when you have been taught that something is true and believed it to be true your whole life, but then observe something or are taught something that negates that truth and you have stress due to the new observation being sound but you believe whole heatedly in your long believed truth. Your mind is in conflict and refuses to accept the new observation based on an ingrained long held belief.

For me, the globe or flat earth being true will not destroy my faith. What the flat earth would do would be to put into question the depth of the corruption in the governments of this world. It would destroy evolution. It would probably start mass hysteria around the world.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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But I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model.

Geocentrism by definition entails a spherical earth. Geocentrism, though a fringe movement, is at least a thing, but flat-earthism only seems to exist on the internet. There were only two figures in church history that advocated for a flat earth, and as far as I know no flat earth books have been published since 1900.
 
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