Creationism is dishonest

TagliatelliMonster

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Whereas I agree YEC is a dishonest position - for reasons not even remotely connected with yours - I must disagree with your total post.

Your statement implies an independent, impartial and completely reliable standard which at all times and places dictate the absolute and final 'rules' for belief in anything. And completely neglect to cite an authority or source for such a belief.

Please show one logical component of your argument: Why does the existence of God HAVE to be proven by current 'science' - which in your statement is left suspiciously vague. In other words, "Who says" so?

The ability of being capable of rationally supporting a belief, only is important to those people who actually care about believing as many true things as possible and the least false things possible.

Belief obviously isn't dependend on rationality, as you will agree that PLENTY of people (including atheists) are more then capable of believing all kinds of things on irrational grounds.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Well, lets see how important observations of this world are to God:

Psalm 19:1King James Version (KJV)

19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.


Romans 1:19-2121st Century King James Version (KJ21)
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them.

20 For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

21 For when they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


So, It is not:
Creationism that "asserts that reason and observation are sufficient grounds to prove the existence of God."

It IS GOD who asserts that reason and observation are sufficient. GOD is so certain that "they are without excuse"


Those are the words of men, written down.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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TagliatelliMonster

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"There is no God so the Bible is a story, the bible is a story so there is not God"

Can you see the difference? No, I see no difference. I don't believe there is a difference.

The difference is that nobody actually uses such an argument.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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I am not trying to shift the burden of proof toward you. I am merely pointing out that yours is a circular reasoning too.
There is nothing circular about pointing out that a certain claim lacks any reasonable supportive evidence.
You see, in the beginning was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God. And the word became flesh. Which is Jesus Christ.
Yes, that is what your religion claims.
You do not believe in God, therefore you cannot understand the simpleness of this truth.
The exact same can be said about you and all the gods you do not believe in, with some line from those respective religions.
I bet you're not losing any sleep over not being able to dine with Odin in the great halls of Whalhalla.
I believe every word in the Bible to be God breathed and written by men who were inspired by the Holy spirit. So, yes, if the Bible is not true in one case, it might as well be not true at all. Then, my faith is in vain. However, if the Bible is true, in all cases, which I believe, then all my belief is supported.
No. Your beliefs will still be unsupported, even if it turns out that it was correct after all.
If I am at a casino and "really believe on faith" that the next hand I'll be dealt will be a black jack, and it turns out to be a black jack... i still wasn't rationally justified in my belief.
If you do not believe the Bible to be the living breathing word of God, I have no reason to or desire to argue with you or try to justify my beliefs.
Actually... you already acknowledged that you aren't justified in your beliefs, by saying that you require/employ faith to believe it.

That literally means that you have no rational justification. Otherwise THAT would be your grounds for believing it, instead of "faith".

For example, you don't require "faith" to believe that you'll plummeth to your death by jumping from the empire state building without a parachute or any other means to break your fall... Because you actually HAVE rational justification(s) for believing that to be true.

I have absolutely no understanding as to why someone, who does not believe in God, would waste their time, coming to a site that is by name and nature, a Christian forum, and ridicule the beliefs of Christians.

Why does it matter?

I certainly have no time to go to Santinist forums, if they exist, Muslim sites, Buddhist sites, or any other non Christian site and purposefully launch slanderous posts that are contrary to their beliefs.

Perhaps you would, if the majority of your fellow citizens were of those faiths and were actively trying (and to some extent, succeeding) to push their religious views down the throats of the non-religious citizens and even worse: have their beliefs endorsed / legislated by the secular government of said nation.

I bet you'll feel differently then.

And other then that... perhaps we just find it entertaining.
 
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JacksBratt

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There is nothing circular about pointing out that a certain claim lacks any reasonable supportive evidence.

Yes, that is what your religion claims.

The exact same can be said about you and all the gods you do not believe in, with some line from those respective religions.
I bet you're not losing any sleep over not being able to dine with Odin in the great halls of Whalhalla.

No. Your beliefs will still be unsupported, even if it turns out that it was correct after all.
If I am at a casino and "really believe on faith" that the next hand I'll be dealt will be a black jack, and it turns out to be a black jack... i still wasn't rationally justified in my belief.

Actually... you already acknowledged that you aren't justified in your beliefs, by saying that you require/employ faith to believe it.

That literally means that you have no rational justification. Otherwise THAT would be your grounds for believing it, instead of "faith".

For example, you don't require "faith" to believe that you'll plummeth to your death by jumping from the empire state building without a parachute or any other means to break your fall... Because you actually HAVE rational justification(s) for believing that to be true.



Why does it matter?



Perhaps you would, if the majority of your fellow citizens were of those faiths and were actively trying (and to some extent, succeeding) to push their religious views down the throats of the non-religious citizens and even worse: have their beliefs endorsed / legislated by the secular government of said nation.

I bet you'll feel differently then.

And other then that... perhaps we just find it entertaining.
It's easy to come here and deny anything that I am saying, based on the fact that I use the Bible as the true word of an all powerful God and as my source of truth.

What exactly is it that you are trying to accomplish, gain or understand by coming here and denying my beliefs?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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It's easy to come here and deny anything that I am saying, based on the fact that I use the Bible as the true word of an all powerful God and as my source of truth.

Yep. About as easy as saying the same about all the other religions and scriptures that you don't believe in.

What exactly is it that you are trying to accomplish, gain or understand by coming here and denying my beliefs?
Healthy discussion and learning for both sides.
And I enjoy arguing, so also amusement.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yep. About as easy as saying the same about all the other religions and scriptures that you don't believe in.

I don't go to sites that deal with religions other than my own and deliberately start challenging their beliefs.


Healthy discussion and learning for both sides.
And I enjoy arguing, so also amusement.

Well, thank you for your honesty. However, my beliefs and religion are not going to be a source for your amusement.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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I don't go to sites that deal with religions other than my own and deliberately start challenging their beliefs.

You would, if those other religions were trying to push legislation which would have a direct effect on you.

Well, thank you for your honesty. However, my beliefs and religion are not going to be a source for your amusement.
I think you misunderstood.

The source of the amusement for me is the discussion itself. I enjoy arguing with people who believe differently then I do about any given subject.

The more opposite the views, the bigger the challenge. :)
 
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JacksBratt

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You would, if those other religions were trying to push legislation which would have a direct effect on you.

Oh, so Christians are trying to push legislation that directly affects you? So you come here to challenge me?

Just how does that change anything in the push for said legislation? Do I somehow have some power in that regard?


I think you misunderstood.

The source of the amusement for me is the discussion itself. I enjoy arguing with people who believe differently then I do about any given subject.

The more opposite the views, the bigger the challenge. :)

No, I understood perfectly. You even state it again. However you do not "discuss". I made a point and your "discussion" was to discredit my source by saying it is mere words of men.

No, you do not "discuss" things. Nor do you argue. You come here and state that the very source of my beliefs is not what I claim it to be and that it is the mere words of men. You contradict my position with absolutely no basis for your contradiction other than telling me that I am wrong because I am wrong.

All the while..............ANY source you have for your belief ....... IS........... from the words of men.

Therefore, your argument in a nutshell is:

You're beliefs are wrong because your source is only the words of men.

BUT my belief is correct because it is based on the words of men.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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The ability of being capable of rationally supporting a belief, only is important to those people who actually care about believing as many true things as possible and the least false things possible.
This is questionable, Monster.

I find any number of people absolutely committed to ultimate truth, depending on the subject. Simplest in example is one consistent with this discussion. A mathematician may be deeply offended by an inconsistency in an equation of other mathematical operation, and simultaneously be unmoved by, or oblivious to, the mismatch of socks.

My experience is the great bulk of people are determined to believe a select 'field' of 'facts' which may be individual 'bits' of reality, certain principles which apply in many conditions but can lead to misapplications when over generalized and memorized bits of opinion based on an 'authority' who is wrong is this particular application.

The reasons people are determined to believe such things are various. Most often, it stems from the basic principle of self-befit. Every one wants to believe they are personally 'bright', 'with-it', 'approved (by men or God)' or 'in'.

TagliatelliMonster said:
Belief obviously isn't dependent [forgive the edit] on rationality, as you will agree that PLENTY of people (including atheists) are more then capable of believing all kinds of things on irrational grounds.
Indeed yes. There are any number of "worldviews" which demand the total ignorance of 'those things' in order to grasp 'these things'.
 
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Hawkins

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Creationism asserts that reason and observation are sufficient grounds to prove the existence of God.

But since the existence of God cannot be proven by reason or science this must be a dishonest position.

ID is not a science. Science is about something which is repeatable. The biology used is a science. ID is a stance or a hypothesis which is historical in nature instead of scientific in nature.

There's nothing dishonest here. It's a matter of how a truth is approached. ID may have assumed that it's a historical event, with biological or other assisting methods as 'evidence'. ToE on the other hand, assumes that this is a repeatable behavior (thus assumes that it's a science), by employing more or less the same assisting methods as 'evidence'.
 
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dcalling

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Creationism asserts that reason and observation are sufficient grounds to prove the existence of God.

But since the existence of God cannot be proven by reason or science this must be a dishonest position.

We are man of faith, it is almost impossible to prove the existence of God by science alone. Same as atheists, they disbelieve the existence of God by faith (and not science).
 
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