Is Jesus the only one who can pay for our sins?

EmSw

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The whole problem is your misunderstanding of what "enter life" means. It doesn't mean to believe the gospel, or even keep the commandments.

No, that's not the problem. It seems the problem is that you do not know what 'enter' means. Enter means there is an entrance, and one goes in. If you don't enter, you will be outside knocking wanting to come in. Here is what Jesus said -

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Do you see the word 'enter' again? One must go in at the strait gate. Why? Because it is the gate which leads to life. Life is not outside the gate, nor is it through the wide gate.

This is hilarious. You've not believed all the verses where Jesus said to believe in Him for eternal life.

I believe I must believe in Him. I believe what He says, not just a part. Every word He spoke is life.

Hardly. But why do you keep ignoring my questions. I asked if that's what you thought it meant.

No, it's not cannibalism. What do you think it means? How do you eat His flesh and drink His blood? It's definitely not by a sacrifice, for no one was to drink the blood of a sacrifice.
 
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EmSw

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I do not believe that the sacrifice of Christ was carried out on a cross in Heaven. There is no cross in Heaven for which the cross on earth was a copy. Nor did I or the scriptures say there is.

Well Marvin, we are not talking about Heaven. We are talking about the cross upon which He died. Did the 'sacrifice' take place on the cross on earth?

I do not believe that the risen Christ was beaten by the Father in Heaven before completing the true temple work of God. Nor did I or the scriptures say He was.

Are you saying He wasn't sacrificed on the cross? I thought you said trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Was His work finished on the cross or not?

The only thing I have to answer for is believing that the Christ fulfilled in the presence of the Father all that was written.

You have changed your tune now. Since Christ fulfilled (whatever you are saying), in the presence of God, why did He die on the cross? What did He mean when He said it is finished on the cross?

I will gladly stand on and answer for those beliefs.

Are you saying the finished work of Christ was on the cross, or in Heaven?

Are you saying Jesus was sacrificed in Heaven?

Thank you for your answers; I believe we are moving along on what was done on the cross.
 
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EmSw

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"the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Corinthians 1:18

So you really think that verse means anything? I say, the message of the cross that you are giving me, is foolishness to those who ask, seek, and knock for the truth.

Why do you not tell us why Jesus never mentioned His cross once? It is the foundation of your beliefs, but is neglected by the Savior Himself.

Why do you not talk of your cross, which the Savior did mention. You believe in Jesus taking your cross, but Jesus said to take up your own cross.

Paul, of all people, should know about Jewish sacrifices. He should know Jewish sacrifices WERE NOT done upon a pagan cross. That would be an abomination to God. God strictly forbid human sacrifice. Yet, you extol it upon the mountain tops.
 
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bling

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However, the 'son' didn't die. And for whose sins was this sacrifice made?

Very much to the point “God provided the sacrifice”! You say we have to provide the sacrifice but that is not always the case.

I forgot you do not accept Hebrews but in Hebrews we find: “By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

Do you also exclude James? James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

In some ways Abraham did “offer up Isaac” in that he gave him up to be sacrificed.

Were false prophets allowed in the OT?

Deuteronomy 13
1 If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

We know them as being false because scripture tells us, so how do you know what is false?

How is it Paul said he got this from Jesus, when Jesus didn't mention a sacrifice, as important as you make it? Show me any part of the Romans verse from the lips of Jesus. Could it be that God is testing you to know whether you will keep His commandments and obey His voice?

Jesus did go to Paul and Paul seems to have been give direct revelations, so do you think Paul could be lying to us?

So, who is your sacrifice, Jesus or you? Was Jesus' 'sacrifice' not enough, and now you have to be your own sacrifice?

A “sacrifice” does not have to be for sins, you can look at the Old Testament and find sacrifices done for lots of reasons. The giving of yourself to the “cause” is a sacrifice of yourself. I am not the atoning sacrifice for my sins.

John didn't use the word 'sacrifice'. He used propitiation, not the same as sacrifice.

Again, you are limiting “sacrifice” to one specific type of sacrifice done one particular way.

Many, many people wrote to others during the same time Paul did. Do you not know it was men who added the books they thought should be included? Did you not know they even had the apocrypha included in the Bible?

There were lots of other letters/books written in and around the same time the letters in the New testament were recorded, but there is a huge contrast between these other letters and what we find in scripture, in that the letters in scripture were protected and preserved by the Holy Spirit giving us 17,000 ancient handwritten manuscripts in 17 different languages that are 95+ would for word consistent and 100% consistent in doctrine (that is what counts) and these other letters only have very few copies (mostly one) and when there are multiple copies there is a lot of inconsistency which shows corruption. The “apocrypha” was never part of the New Testament, but letters written between the New and the Old with nothing significantly doctrinal to the Old Testament.

If anyone's words do not say what Jesus said, you should be aware. That's why it is so important to know and understand Jesus' words first, and put them in your heart. Only Jesus has the words of life.


How do you know for sure Jesus said these words recorded by men?

I may be wrong, but weren't all Levitical sacrifices burnt. What was an Levitical sacrifice to you? Was it hanging on a pagan cross? Here is what I meant by our sacrifice -

Matthew 10:39
He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Luke 17:33
Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

OK those are examples of our sacrifice, so did Jesus do the same kind of thing and thus he made a sacrifice?

This is not how a sacrifice was made in the OT. No animals were tortured; they had to be unblemished.

So, when Jesus says whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it, does that mean we must be tortured and humiliated?

The Old Testament Atonement sacrifices were but a poor “shadow” of the reality we find with Christ’s sacrifice. A bag of flour was all that was need by some for an atonement sacrifice for an unintentional sin (really a minor type sin). A minor sins required some significant “sacrifice” by the sinner lamb, bird or bag of flour dependent on the sinners wealth (this helped to equalize the hardship for the sinner and did really nothing for God).

A full understanding of Christ’s atonement sacrifice takes lots of words and time. We can begin with the simple concept of the ransom being the atonement sacrifice and what that means.

Those only able to afford a bag of flour (Lev. 5) certainly would not have considered that bag of flour to be a “substitute” for them. There is nothing to suggest the Jewish people ever thought of any sacrifices to be substitutes for them. So what did they experience in this atonement process for unintentional sins?

If we could relate to their atonement experience for “minor” sins we might be able to extrapolate to what the atonement process would be like for intentional sins? (Read Lev. 5)


Forgiveness for unintentional sins came after the completion of the atonement process (Lev. 5), but did God need a bag of flour to forgive the person’s sins?


Would God need anything to forgive a person’s sins or is it the person needing something to accept that forgiveness as pure charity?


Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment (it is not even said to be like a ransom payment, but it was a ransom payment)?


I find the ransom description more than just an analogy to be an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”

(The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” has God paying satan the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ but: Does God owe Satan anything? Is there some cosmic “law” saying you have to pay the kidnapper? Would it not be wrong for God to pay satan, if God could just as easily and safely take back His children without paying satan?)


Would a ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him) included the following elements:


1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.



Go to Luke 15: 11-32 the prodigal son story to illustrate:


Who in the middle of the night snuck in and dragged off the young son, force the son to do evil stuff and finally chained him to a pigsty starving to death? (this is not the way it happened, but the child of the father was kidnapped.)


Who returned to the father, was it the son that rebelliously wished his father’s death so he could get his inheritance or was it the child of the father?


We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (who is this kidnapper)?


There is the one ransom, but could there be many kidnappers and many children?


Who are the kidnappers?
 
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FreeGrace2

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The Romans were pagan. And you want to sacrifice the Divine on a pagan cross.
It wasn't my idea at all. It was Jesus' Father. But your answer doesn't address my question. You mentioned "pagan sacrifices" and answer with "Romans were pagan". So what?

Roman execution was by hanging on a cross. It had NOTHING to do with "pagan sacrifices".

Just more grasping at straws.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So you really think that verse means anything?
There it is; in black and white. The poster has no respect for God's Word.

Why do you not tell us why Jesus never mentioned His cross once? It is the foundation of your beliefs, but is neglected by the Savior Himself.
Please explain what these verses are teaching:
Mark 14:12 - On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

What did John the baptizer mean when He said this:
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Why does Jesus as the "Lamb of God" not qualify to be the fulfillment of the Passover Lamb?

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Why do you reject this very clear verse?

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Jesus Himself) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Explain the words in red; what they mean, since you reject the idea that Jesus was a sacrifice.


Paul, of all people, should know about Jewish sacrifices. He should know Jewish sacrifices WERE NOT done upon a pagan cross.
There has been NO evidence that pagans sacrificed on a cross. Making up stuff to support your unbiblical claims is for all to see.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I believe I must believe in Him. I believe what He says, not just a part. Every word He spoke is life.
Why don't you believe that one HAS eternal life by believing in Him, since you keep harping on keeping the commandments.

Which is it; to believe in Him or act and think like the Pharisees for eternal life?

No, it's not cannibalism. What do you think it means? How do you eat His flesh and drink His blood? It's definitely not by a sacrifice, for no one was to drink the blood of a sacrifice.
I asked you what it meant. Do you not know?
 
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EmSw

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Very much to the point “God provided the sacrifice”! You say we have to provide the sacrifice but that is not always the case.

I forgot you do not accept Hebrews but in Hebrews we find: “By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

Do you also exclude James? James 2:21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
In some ways Abraham did “offer up Isaac” in that he gave him up to be sacrificed.

So, you believe in human sacrifices. Don't worry, you aren't alone.

Notice the colored word above, 'about'. Since you think this is compared to Jesus death, we have to conclude God was 'about' to sacrifice His Son. However, Isaac's death did not come to fruition. Isaac was to be offered upon an altar, not a pagan cross. I also take you believe in a blood-thirsty God. As I said above, you are not alone.

We know them as being false because scripture tells us, so how do you know what is false?

First, you must know the truth God gave us. This is the only thing to which we can compare other writings or the spoken word. As God told us, any false word was to test us to whether we will keep His commandments and obey Him.

Deuteronomy 13
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.


By this standard, we Jesus was a True Prophet of God, for He does tell to keep the commandments. If someone tells you that you do not have to keep the commandments, they are a false prophet which tests you to see you will keep the commandments.

Jesus did go to Paul and Paul seems to have been give direct revelations, so do you think Paul could be lying to us?

Again, Paul's own words will reveal whether it was Jesus or another spirit. We have no written witnesses to attest to Paul's vision, so we must rely upon what he wrote.

A “sacrifice” does not have to be for sins, you can look at the Old Testament and find sacrifices done for lots of reasons. The giving of yourself to the “cause” is a sacrifice of yourself. I am not the atoning sacrifice for my sins.

However, if you repent for the forgiveness of sins, you are pardoned of your sins (letting them go as if they were never committed) and you are remitted of the penalty. No sacrifice is needed, no offering is needed, and no blood is needed.

Again, you are limiting “sacrifice” to one specific type of sacrifice done one particular way.

Then please show me where God permitted a sacrifice to be given upon a pagan cross. If you can, then perhaps you have a point.

There were lots of other letters/books written in and around the same time the letters in the New testament were recorded, but there is a huge contrast between these other letters and what we find in scripture, in that the letters in scripture were protected and preserved by the Holy Spirit giving us 17,000 ancient handwritten manuscripts in 17 different languages that are 95+ would for word consistent and 100% consistent in doctrine (that is what counts) and these other letters only have very few copies (mostly one) and when there are multiple copies there is a lot of inconsistency which shows corruption. The “apocrypha” was never part of the New Testament, but letters written between the New and the Old with nothing significantly doctrinal to the Old Testament.

You need to look at this article -

APOCRYPHA KJV

Here is the first line of this article:
The apocrypha is a selection of books which were published in the original 1611 King James Bible.

How do you know for sure Jesus said these words recorded by men?

Then you and I are in trouble. We can compare Jesus' words with the OT truth. Do you find anything Jesus said that is a lie?

OK those are examples of our sacrifice, so did Jesus do the same kind of thing and thus he made a sacrifice?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but yes, Jesus did give us plenty of examples of being selfless, denying Himself, and loving others.

The Old Testament Atonement sacrifices were but a poor “shadow” of the reality we find with Christ’s sacrifice. A bag of flour was all that was need by some for an atonement sacrifice for an unintentional sin (really a minor type sin). A minor sins required some significant “sacrifice” by the sinner lamb, bird or bag of flour dependent on the sinners wealth (this helped to equalize the hardship for the sinner and did really nothing for God).

However, we never see a human sacrifice for any atonement. Human sacrifices were purely pagan. You can't compare pagan sacrifices with Jesus.

A full understanding of Christ’s atonement sacrifice takes lots of words and time. We can begin with the simple concept of the ransom being the atonement sacrifice and what that means.

You want to go into a very detailed explanation, but when the atonement sacrifice is viewed in detail, it is not fulfilled in Jesus' death. Of every detail you can provide, you cannot find one instance of a human sacrifice upon a pagan cross.

Those only able to afford a bag of flour (Lev. 5) certainly would not have considered that bag of flour to be a “substitute” for them. There is nothing to suggest the Jewish people ever thought of any sacrifices to be substitutes for them. So what did they experience in this atonement process for unintentional sins?

What was the flour considered if not a substitute? What did the Jewish people consider the sacrifices to be for them?

If we could relate to their atonement experience for “minor” sins we might be able to extrapolate to what the atonement process would be like for intentional sins? (Read Lev. 5)

Okay bling, relate the atonement experience for 'minor' sins for us. I hope we find something significant here.

Forgiveness for unintentional sins came after the completion of the atonement process (Lev. 5), but did God need a bag of flour to forgive the person’s sins?

Now I think you are seeing something. Did God need Jesus' 'sacrifice' to forgive us?

Would God need anything to forgive a person’s sins or is it the person needing something to accept that forgiveness as pure charity?

Just as Jesus told us, repent for the forgiveness of sins. God doesn't need anything else to forgive us. Excellent observation.

Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment (it is not even said to be like a ransom payment, but it was a ransom payment)?

Okay, He gave His life as a ransom for many. No where is ransom associated with a sacrifice. A ransom is associated with redemption. Why did Jesus need to be sacrificed to be a Redeemer? All through the OT, God is called Israel's Redeemer, and it wasn't because He was sacrificed.

A ransom is something given in return for something else. A ransom can be money, a man's riches, the wicked, the unfaithful, a country, and a life. There were the ransomed in the OT (Isaiah 51:11).

I find the ransom description more than just an analogy to be an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”

(The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” has God paying satan the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ but: Does God owe Satan anything? Is there some cosmic “law” saying you have to pay the kidnapper? Would it not be wrong for God to pay satan, if God could just as easily and safely take back His children without paying satan?)

God does not owe Satan anything. Where do you get God paid Satan?

Would a ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him) included the following elements:

1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.

First off, no one was kidnapped. Man had turned to himself, and started to sin against God. He needed to be ransomed or redeemed from his ways and sins. Jesus gave His life, not His death as a ransom. It is through His life that we have life. Remember, Jesus came to serve, not to be served. It is through His being a servant, that He gave His life as a servant to ransom many.

How was His life of a servant a ransom, you might ask. He gave us (His) life in place of the captivity of our death. Once again, no sacrifice was needed to accomplish this. Again, no ransom was associated with a sacrifice.

Go to Luke 15: 11-32 the prodigal son story to illustrate:

Who in the middle of the night snuck in and dragged off the young son, force the son to do evil stuff and finally chained him to a pigsty starving to death? (this is not the way it happened, but the child of the father was kidnapped.)

Who returned to the father, was it the son that rebelliously wished his father’s death so he could get his inheritance or was it the child of the father?

We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (who is this kidnapper)?

There is the one ransom, but could there be many kidnappers and many children?

Who are the kidnappers?

The young man was dragged by temptations, in which he gave in through his lusts. It was his lusts which did the evil stuff and chained him. He was not kidnapped.

If you want a kidnapper, it is your own lusts giving in to temptations.

Jesus was the ransom by His life He showed us through examples. Did Jesus give in to temptations? Did He show us how to overcome temptations? What have you learned from His life if you aren't able to overcome?
 
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EmSw

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It wasn't my idea at all. It was Jesus' Father. But your answer doesn't address my question. You mentioned "pagan sacrifices" and answer with "Romans were pagan". So what?

Roman execution was by hanging on a cross. It had NOTHING to do with "pagan sacrifices".

Just more grasping at straws.

So, Jesus' hanging on the cross was an execution. I can agree with that.

And it had nothing to do with sacrifices.
 
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EmSw

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Why don't you believe that one HAS eternal life by believing in Him, since you keep harping on keeping the commandments.

I do believe that, FG2. Why don't you believe Jesus said, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments?

Jesus said the same thing in this manner (perhaps you can understand this) -

Luke 10:28
And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Which is it; to believe in Him or act and think like the Pharisees for eternal life?

To believe in Him, obey His word, and keep His commandments.

I asked you what it meant. Do you not know?

Sure I know. And I can tell you, it has nothing to do with a sacrifice.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I do believe that, FG2. Why don't you believe Jesus said, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments?
Where would one get the weird idea that I don't believe that? So, since you do believe that Jesus said to believe in Him for eternal life, is your idea that one much believe in Christ AND keep the commandments for etrenal life. Kind of a 2 step?

Sure I know.
Sure, you don't.

And I can tell you, it has nothing to do with a sacrifice.
Please explain what these verses are teaching:
Mark 14:12 - On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

What did John the baptizer mean when He said this:
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Why does Jesus as the "Lamb of God" not qualify to be the fulfillment of the Passover Lamb?

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Why do you reject this very clear verse?

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Jesus Himself) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Explain the words in red; what they mean, since you reject the idea that Jesus was a sacrifice.
 
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EmSw

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Where would one get the weird idea that I don't believe that? So, since you do believe that Jesus said to believe in Him for eternal life, is your idea that one much believe in Christ AND keep the commandments for etrenal life. Kind of a 2 step?

Just like Jesus said.

Please explain what these verses are teaching:
Mark 14:12 - On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

Do what? Where do you get Jesus was the Passover lamb here? I am sure they didn't eat Jesus during the Passover.

How many Passover lambs does a person need to sacrifice?

What did John the baptizer mean when He said this:
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Why does Jesus as the "Lamb of God" not qualify to be the fulfillment of the Passover Lamb?

If you knew that a lamb signifies innocence, you would know what John meant. Sins are taken away through repentance for forgiveness. And yes, Jesus has power on earth to forgive sins, and this without any sacrifice.

Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Why do you reject this very clear verse?

Paul, of all people, should have known what was involved in a sacrifice. If Paul knew Jesus never called Himself a sacrifice, maybe he would have known the truth.

Besides, the sinner himself presented the sacrifice. Why did God present the sacrifice?

Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Jesus Himself) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

You don't even know who wrote this. Surely this writer did not know that Jesus never mentioned Himself as a sacrifice. So many of you are bent on human sacrifices.

1 John 2:2
- He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word John used is not 'sacrifice'. I've told you this before, but you keep wanting a human sacrifice.

Explain the words in red; what they mean, since you reject the idea that Jesus was a sacrifice.

Why do you want a human sacrifice? God calls this an abomination. Why do you want to be abominable to God? Are you a follower of Molech?
 
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Marvin Knox

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.................That would be an abomination to God. God strictly forbid human sacrifice. Yet, you extol it upon the mountain tops.
You can bet all that you have that I will indeed extol it upon the mountain tops until the Lord comes.

I am counting on it being an abomination to God - just as you say.

The vicarious, substitutionary death and curse of Jesus Christ at Calvary in place of me to whom such a curse was justly due is a central theme of my faith.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— Galatians 3:13
Why do you want a human sacrifice? God calls this an abomination. Why do you want to be abominable to God?
It's not that we want to be an abomination to God.

It's that we rejoice that Christ at Calvary did become an abomination to God in our stead.

Basic Christianity 101.

You are indeed a fool - devoid of the Spirit and preaching that what happened to Christ at Calvary was not necessary to procure the salvation of God's elect.
 
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EmSw

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You can bet all that you have that I will indeed extol it upon the mountain tops until the Lord comes.

I am counting on it being an abomination to God - just as you say.

Paul has driven you to madness. Abominations are not to be among those who call upon the Lord.

Revelation 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Those who work abominations will not enter into the great city, the holy Jerusalem. Such madness runs rampant.

The vicarious, substitutionary death and curse of Jesus Christ at Calvary in place of me to whom such a curse was justly due is a central theme of my faith.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— Galatians 3:13

Here we see Paul didn't know his own law. But yet, you blindly believe and follow him.

Deuteronomy 21
22 “If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,
23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.


Verse 22 completely omits Jesus from this curse. Jesus NEVER committed any sin, much less any deserving of death. Maybe you want to make Jesus a sinner, but that would be foolish.

It's not that we want to be an abomination to God.

It's that we rejoice that Christ at Calvary did become an abomination to God in our stead.

Basic Christianity 101.

You are indeed a fool - devoid of the Spirit and preaching that what happened to Christ at Calvary was not necessary to procure the salvation of God's elect.

Jesus NEVER became an abomination to God!!! And it's definitely not something to rejoice in! Paul has made you mad.

And of course, with your madness, I expect you to degrade others.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Jesus Himself) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God
You don't even know who wrote this. Surely this writer did not know that Jesus never mentioned Himself as a sacrifice.
Rejection of any part of the Bible qualifies one as heretical.

Why do you want a human sacrifice? God calls this an abomination. Why do you want to be abominable to God? Are you a follower of Molech?
Why haven't you yet answered the question of why Jesus went to the cross? What are you hiding?
 
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Fish14

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "hell is the penalty for sin" (I don't even believe in the common teaching concerning "hell"); but I'm asking, what did Jesus pay that we wouldn't have to pay?
That was my question. I asked if the penalty for sin is something...
a. only Jesus can pay
(and paid by dying)
b. we can also pay for by being eternally separated from God.

It seems to be obviously the first one is the correct answer, but I wondered why so few people agree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "hell is the penalty for sin" (I don't even believe in the common teaching concerning "hell"); but I'm asking, what did Jesus pay that we wouldn't have to pay? Obviously it isn't "hell" since as you said, Jesus isn't in "hell" forever. It wasn't eternal separation from God, since Jesus wasn't eternally separated from God. It can't be death because we still die. It can't be annihilation because Jesus wasn't annihilated. So the question is, what exactly did Jesus pay that we won't have to? If He took our place, our place in relation to, what?

Whatever the penalty for sin is, Jesus did pay it. It could be the life of an innocent person (Exodus 12:3-5). If so, Jesus took our punishment, but those who don't believe can't however atone for their sin.
 
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Marvin Knox

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That was my question. I asked if the penalty for sin is something...
a. only Jesus can pay
(and paid by dying)
b. we can also pay for by being eternally separated from God.
It seems to be obviously the first one is the correct answer, but I wondered why so few people agree.
Whatever the penalty for sin is, Jesus did pay it. It could be the life of an innocent person (Exodus 12:3-5). If so, Jesus took our punishment, but those who don't believe can't however atone for their sin.
Jesus did bear the penalty for the sins of the elect. The scriptures are clear about that.

We can never pay enough for the affront to God which is our sin.

The Word of God is omnipresent and always will be. There is no place where the creation will not, in some way, be in His presence - including Hell as well as Heaven.

In the end all things will be summed up in Christ - the incarnate Word of God. That includes the being of everyone who has ever lived.

We will all spend eternity in Christ just as we have our being in Him in this life. In Him we live and move and have our being.

The question for all men both elect and reprobate is whether they will be found for eternity in the exalted Word of God or the cursed Word of God. The Word of God is both the Lion and the Lamb of God and evermore shall be.

These are difficult concepts. But one thing is sure.

Only the Word of God can pay the price for sin.

Whatever the form of unsaved men takes in Hell - they will not be paying for their sin but simply joining our creator and sustainer for eternity in wrath as He pays for their sins.

That's my take on things. Obviously my take and explanation will fall short in many ways- seeing only through a dark glass in this present age as it were.

But I believe that the question asked in the OP is flawed from the start for the same reason. His ways are definitely not our ways.
 
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EmSw

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I said this:
Heb 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:10 - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:12 - But when this priest (Jesus Himself) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

Rejection of any part of the Bible qualifies one as heretical.

Do you reject the apocrypha?

The apocrypha is a selection of books which were published in the original 1611 King James Bible. These apocryphal books were positioned between the Old and New Testament (it also contained maps and geneologies). The apocrypha was a part of the KJV for 274 years until being removed in 1885 A.D. (APOCRYPHA KJV)

If you reject the apocrypha, you are a heretic by your own words.

Besides, you are as the pagans, desiring a human sacrifice to appease their god. What God calls abomination, you call salvation.

Why haven't you yet answered the question of why Jesus went to the cross? What are you hiding?

To one who desires human sacrifices, much is hidden.
 
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Jesus did bear the penalty for the sins of the elect. The scriptures are clear about that.
What is clear is that He takes away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29). Nothing about the elect in that verse. Or any other. He died for all, which is specifically stated in 2 Cor 5:14,15 and Heb 2:9.

But that doesn't save anyone. It does, however, provide the gift of eternal life which is given to those who believe in Him. So no one will be cast into the lake of fire on the basis of their sins. It will be only on the basis of their not possessing eternal life, per Rev 20:15.
 
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