Signs of the Times... what do you see?

Archivist said:

None that I know of, but, again, others have used the same verse and been wrong. It could b referring to an event that will not happen for many years.

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Why were they wrong?

parousia70 said:

Why?
Based on What?

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1967 the Jews retook Jerusalem back into their hands. It was a necessary requirement for bible prophecy to be fulfilled because Jerusalem has to welcome Jesus = saying blessed is he who comes in the name the Lord.

The parable of the fig tree is based on correctly identifying the fig tree. There is support in the bible for both Israel and Jerusalem being the fig tree.

Verses in the Tanach (old testament) support that Israel is the fig tree, and many commentators back before 2011 theorized that 1948 when Israel became a nation again that was the generation that would not pass without seeing Jesus's return.

So they took 1948 added 70 years for the length of a generation (Psalms 90) and came up with Jesus returning no later than 2018. The problem arose because there are the 7 years of the 70th week that must precede Jesus's return - which would have meant 2011 as the no later than start of the 70th week. Didn't happen. So that theory fizzled.

By the same process, but based on verses in the new testament on Jerusalem being the fig tree - specifically based upon Jesus cursing the fig on the side of the road, as representing Jerusalem, who would reject him as being her king.

So 1967 adding 70 years is the 2037, Jesus returning to earth no later than. And taking into account the 70th week preceding His Return - 2030 is the no later than deadline for the 70th week to begin.

Of course since 1967, Jerusalem has been the center of attention in dispute and conflict over, and we have to take into consideration that a temple will be built, of some sorts, on the temple mount in Jerusalem for a host of other major prophecies to take place during the 70th week.

So the 70th will have to start sometime between now and the end of 2030.

There are two preliminary prophecies to the start of the 70th week that must come first. 1st the formation of the ten leader form of Government of the EU with one leader over them, the little horn. 2nd, then the event of Gog/Magog must take place.

parousia70 said:

Genesis 7:1
Deuteronomy 1:35
Psalms 12:7
Psalms 71:18
Matthew 12:16
Matthew 12:41
Matthew 12:42
Matthew 12:45
Matthew 23:36
Mark 8:12
Mark 8:38
Mark 13:30
Luke 7:31
Luke 11:29-32
Luke 11:50-51
Luke 17:25
Acts 2:40

That's 17 other passages that are "generation specific".

But who's counting?

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I thought it would be understood without my spelling it out since the discussion has to do with Jesus's Return, the generation specific to Jesus's Return. But you did do good with Mark 13:30

Douggg said:

Why were they wrong?

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They had the trigger point wrong. There is no guarantee that you have it right.

This is the concept that is being argued here:

Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets some (Partial Preterism) or all (Full Preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened in the 2nd century BC, while seeing the prophecies of Revelation as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

You will not be able to change their mind. Just like evolutionists, atheists, theistic evolutionists and others that argue here.

99% of people here are set in their views. Including myself. I may learn a slight difference in outlook on some point. However, my basic view as a YEC Pre Trib believer is not going to change one Iota.

For this reason, I am staying in conversations, of this sort, less and less.

If I see an unfamiliar face, I will jump in.

Archivist said:

They had the trigger point wrong. There is no guarantee that you have it right.

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The parable of the fig tree entails two factors - 1. what does the fig tree represent. 2. what is the length of a generation. They had one or both of those things wrong.

If you have a different identification of the fig tree representing something other than Jerusalem., please state it and your reasoning from the bible.

If you have a different identification of the length of a generation than 70 years, please state it and your reasoning from the bible.

PollyJetix said:

Why does a simple question of what signs have you seen... have to turn into a knock-down, drag-out fight?
Why do Christians gravitate toward fighting over prophecy?
This is disgusting.

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It a fleshly thing that stems from the pride that comes from knowledge. Its a distraction that's easy to fall into for those who perceive themselves to be knowledgeable and emphasize knowledge. We are to discern the times. Discernment is spiritual and comes from walking in the truth. Hebrews 5:14 Those who know Jesus will fare well when reality doesn't align with their eschatology.

Douggg said:

The parable of the fig tree entails two factors - 1. what does the fig tree represent. 2. what is the length of a generation. They had one or both of those things wrong.

If you have a different identification of the fig tree representing something other than Jerusalem., please state it and your reasoning from the bible.

If you have a different identification of the length of a generation than 70 years, please state it and your reasoning from the bible.

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Not up to me to prove anything. I've said multiple times that it isn't up to us to try to predict when Jesus will return. Again, you are claiming that the fig tree stands for Jerusalem, that a generation is 70 years. Others have made other claims over the centuries; thus far all have been wrong. You might have picked the correct trigger or, like others, you might be wrong.

Douggg said:

I thought it would be understood without my spelling it out since the discussion has to do with Jesus's Return, the generation specific to Jesus's Return. But you did do good with Mark 13:30

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The point is, in EVERY INSTANCE of the above uses of "THIS GENERATION, it refers to the generation alive at the time the phrase was spoken.

There is no Biblical justification to apply a polar opposite interpretation to the phrase when it has to do with Jesus' "return".

Douggg said:

The parable of the fig tree entails two factors - 1. what does the fig tree represent. 2. what is the length of a generation.
If you have a different identification of the fig tree representing something other than Jerusalem., please state it and your reasoning from the bible.

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I don't have an issue per se with the Fig tree representing Israel/Jerusalem, but if we do that, then we must take Luke's account and say that "All Trees" must therefore represent ALL ancient Nations being Reborn.
Luke 21:29-30
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

So that means the Chaldeans, the Medes, The Aztec, the Hopi, the Babylonians, etc...
Were they all reborn in 1967?
Luke Demands it for your calculations to be correct.
If not, then we still have to wait for all other ancient nations to be reborn before we can start the "This generation" clock...

If you have a different identification of the length of a generation than 70 years, please state it and your reasoning from the bible.

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Sure thang...
A Biblical Generation is 40 years.

Numbers 32:13
And the Lord'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed.

Psalm 95:10
Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

And the Kicker.....

Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

No matter how you slice it, squeeze it, stuff it, shave it, or otherwise force it, you can not make each one of the 42 generations mentioned above in Matthew = 70 years.

dad said:

Fair enough then. So Jews from all over were there.

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There would have to be, for that scripture to harmonize with your view.

I would suspect it refers to every nation where Jews lived at that time.

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So again, we have now concretely affirmed that ALL NATIONS, in your view, does not necessarily mean "all nations".

You may now withdraw that argument against my view.

On the issue of the end times and Revelaton, it is certain I am right that this was not in the past. As I pointed out there is NO way all the things in the book happened yet.

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Rather, I have shown our readers quite effectively that, when pressed, you yourself don't hold "all the things in the book" as literal as you would have us believe... when your view requires you apply wiggle room to the text, you are more than happy to assert as much wiggle room as you can muster.

The rub is, you don't allow that wiggle room for anyone else.
The moment you hold my (or anyone else's) view to a standard you refuse to have your own view held to, your argument against my view becomes moot.

Your record is now 12-2, which still gets you into the playoffs

parousia70 said:

There would have to be, for that scripture to harmonize with your view.



So again, we have now concretely affirmed that ALL NATIONS, in your view, does not necessarily mean "all nations".

You may now withdraw that argument against my view.

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Since we don't know who was there any speculation is futile. If some Jews of all nations where there was a substantial population of Jews were there, that would fit the all nations thing.

Rather, I have shown our readers quite effectively that, when pressed, you yourself don't hold "all the things in the book" as literal as you would have us believe... when your view requires you apply wiggle room to the text, you are more than happy to assert as much wiggle room as you can muster.

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False. There is a difference between you ignorantly insinuating not all nations with Jews were represented in Acts, and a blatant rejection of all the things in Revelation and elsewhere that HAVE to be future. Your attempt to get an excuse to toss it all out, based on speculation is overthrown.

The rub is, you don't allow that wiggle room for anyone else.
The moment you hold my (or anyone else's) view to a standard you refuse to have your own view held to, your argument against my view becomes moot.

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On major issues of basic prophecy, you may not try to make the bible worthless fables...no.

Your record is now 12-2, which still gets you into the playoffs

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Don't know what that means. I do know what the bible says will hapen one day though. God has not judged the world yet, or started to rule! All Israel has noy yet been saved at the end looking at Him whom they pierced coming. We have not seen the son of man in the clouds coming to earth yet. None of the worldwide plagues and judgments of Revelation have happened yet.

When people toss out the bible and sound doctrine, getting back on topic...that IS a sign of the end!!!

For the win...

Anybody notice (how could we not) how dispensational rhetoric deteriorates as its proponents near their exhaustion points?
Our brother has been characterized as "ignorant" today, and worse on other days.
Another brother on a different thread has been characterized as "warped" and "clueless" today, and worse on other days.
I found out yesterday that I'm an idiot. A few weeks ago, that I'm insane.
In the latter case, I expressed my appreciation for another credential to add to my CV.
All symptoms of an affliction that I've termed "dispensational delirium."
Blessings to all.

jgr said:

Anybody notice (how could we not) how dispensational rhetoric deteriorates as its proponents near their exhaustion points?
Our brother has been characterized as "ignorant" today,

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Post?

dad said:

Post?

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213

PollyJetix said:

Why does a simple question of what signs have you seen... have to turn into a knock-down, drag-out fight?
Why do Christians gravitate toward fighting over prophecy?
This is disgusting.

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I truly believe that this thread, when read in it's entirety, can be viewed as a sign of the times.You have been told that He will return at an hour that you least expect. Could we not stay awake?

GTW27 said:

I truly believe that this thread, when read in it's entirety, can be viewed as a sign of the times.You have been told that He will return at an hour that you least expect. Could we not stay awake?

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There's nothing wrong with vigorous debate as long as it's kept civil. But not all of it has.

jgr said:

213

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So you are wrong then. The only reference there to anything done in ignorance was this..

"ignorantly insinuating.."

Now if we do not know how many nations with a Jewish population were represented in Acts, it is ignorantly insinuating when one insinuates that not all nations were represented. Or do you or your pal know which nations were there? Yes..or no.

Douggg said:

The parable of the fig tree is based on correctly identifying the fig tree. There is support in the bible for both Israel and Jerusalem being the fig tree.

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Judah is the fig tree, Israel is the vine. Jeremiah 24:1-7, Isaiah 5:7
There are 2 nations, Judah is the visible entity and Israel; now every Christian believer, remains scattered among the nations. We, His sheep, John 10:16, are soon to be gathered. Ezekiel 34:11-16

Douggg said:

I thought it would be understood without my spelling it out since the discussion has to do with Jesus's Return, the generation specific to Jesus's Return.

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When Jesus said; this generation will see it all - He meant those who will be alive at the commencement of the end times. Which commenced with the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel. So anyone born around 1948 and after will [could] live to see it all. All that is prophesied to happen BEFORE He Returns.
This is the other bad mistake: thinking Jesus meant His Return to reign for 1000 years. No, much must take place before that glorious event and straight after that fig tree parable, He warned us about His great Day of wrath, that will catch the whole world suddenly. Luke 21:34-35

PollyJetix said:

Look a little closer at that verse.
It says about wars and rumors of wars, that the end is not yet.

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That is very true.....Jesus was, imho, speaking to the disciples there about when they would eventually (35-40 years later), hear of Wars and Rumors of wars when they were in foreign lands taking the Gospel to Rome, Asia Minor etc. etc. We know the Holy Spirit guiding them would take them out of harms way at the time. Jesus did not want them to think Jerusalem falling was the end of the world.

As per the original question: Signs of the Times/End.....Good question.

The rebirth of Israel, against all odds was/is a major sign. There could be no third temple without a rebirth of Israel. There can be no BEAST/Anti-Christ without Israel being reborn, a Beast is one who conquers Israel. Ezekiel's prophecy about Israel being Dead men's bones, then coming alive again fits in here.

Those verses are are the key to the end times. They are the foundation of all end time prophecies. Once Israel was reborn as a nation, we were nigh to the end, but of course then other prophesies could come forth, but what are the signs?

Daniel stated that travel would increase to and fro, and that knowledge would increase at the end times. Well we went from horse and buggy 150 years or so ago to trains/cars/planes/space flight etc. etc. with people traveling all over the world in hours. (CHECK) Then we have knowledge that has skyrocketed in the last 50 years, the computer has united us like the Tower of Babel. Knowledge has increased exponentially, we can clone the Dinosaurs and bring them back if we want to, we can track everything a person does/says with our spy agencies. There could be no world dictator without Satellites/NSA type spying, a Global trading market etc. etc.

We have the world becoming much more coarse and vulgar, millions of babies snuffed out for conveniences sake, homosexual marriage, etc. etc. College campuses are loony factories. They believe in Socialism over Capitalism, this is the way they will push us towards the goal of globalism, by brainwashing our kids k-12 then in college.