Signs of the Times... what do you see?

dad said:

The bits that were about the past are in with the bits best applied to the future.

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Did you happen to flunk English?
Which bits do you see in the quoted portion that are in future tense?

dad said:

No such thing as 'this language'. That language is called prophesy!

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It's called "apocalyptic language"
It's a well known literary genre.
You can easily Google it. I did. Here's a primer of what google returned.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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As I have been saying, it's a repeating theme used Time and again by the prophets to describe the fall of individual nations in real history. Are you listening?

If the shaking took place so did His wrath. Seriously??

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Yes seriously. Dead Seriously.

Please, again, see my post #119 and take the time and effort to address it verse by verse, offering your alternate interpretation.
You previously dismissed my well thought out and painstakingly detailed post out of hand, which was easy and convenient for you i know... but seriously, if we are going to do this, and I'm making the effort, the least you can do is match my effort. No?

Why are you here posting?
For fluff, or for substance?

Watch out for prophesy. Intermediate fulfillments and final ones.

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"Partial fulfillment" is an oxymoron.
There is fulfilled and there is unfulfilled.

The day of the Lord is found in the old testament also. Very consistent in all the things listed to happen.

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Ding ding ding!
Again there have been MULTIPLE "Day of the Lord" events throughout history and they ALL follow the same pattern.

Any judgments were small compared to the great day of the wrath of the Almighty.

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Indeed. AD 66-70 was the greatest "day of the lord" in Israel's History. Due to the covenantal significance of that event, it can never be repeated.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Jews experienced when they were excommunicated out of covenant with God in that day.

parousia70 said:

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Jews experienced when they were excommunicated out of covenant with God in that day.

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Amen to that.

But there's probably no dispensationalist alive who knows, or admits to knowing, who Josephus was.

Here's something I posted elsewhere today:

Dispensationalism’s obdurate and unconcealed disdain for, and rejection of, prophetic history originates with its founder John Nelson Darby, who once remarked “I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy.” Adrift thereof, it is no surprise that numbers of his opinions, observations, and conclusions increasingly took on characteristics that can only be regarded as hallucinatory. And, as has been demonstrated innumerable times over the course of church history, it is in the soil of such an environment that the seeds of apostasy and cultism germinate and flourish. George Santayana’s epic observation, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” while secular, seems also eminently applicable to dispensationalism’s condition. And the consequent condemnation is even greater when its repetition is due not to forgetfulness, but to deliberate rejection.

parousia70 said:

It's called "apocalyptic language"
It's a well known literary genre.

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Would you say Jesus used that here..?

Mat 24: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with F46 a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As I have been saying, it's a repeating theme used Time and again by the prophets to describe the fall of individual nations in real history. Are you listening?

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Not when He mentions all nations. All nations gather at Armageddon for example. That never happened.

Yes seriously. Dead Seriously.

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The scripture is dead when we can't see the life and meaning beyond some poetic ancient history.

You previously dismissed my well thought out and painstakingly detailed post out of hand, which was easy and convenient for you i know... but seriously, if we are going to do this, and I'm making the effort, the least you can do is match my effort. No?

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Looking at Ps 18 or it's sister chapter you cited, I see lots that doesn't fit in a battle in Israel long ago. No need to go verse by verse I listed some that showed it was deeper than David's battle.

"Partial fulfillment" is an oxymoron.
There is fulfilled and there is unfulfilled.

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If men wax worse and worse, why would we assume that each step along the way doesn't count? If the bile says many false prophets will arise, why claim that the plethora of them we already have seen and see don't count? You don't get to make the rules and limit Scripture as you deem fit.

Again there have been MULTIPLE "Day of the Lord" events throughout history and they ALL follow the same pattern.

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I take it you are not aware of the prophetic term that speaks of a certain time. We will not agree, especially off topic in this thread.

There is no equal to the level of devastation millions of Jews experienced when they were excommunicated out of covenant with God in that day.

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That doesn't fit the bill for the time known as the day of the Lord.

I have made my points on this issue. No sense arguing I will not be changing my mind.

jgr said:

Did you happen to flunk English?
Which bits do you see in the quoted portion that are in future tense?

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How about this?

9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

That happened in a battle in Israel?? Really? You think God came down to earth riding an angel there!!! Ha

dad said:

Would you say Jesus used that here..?

Mat 24: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with F46 a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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Without question. Absolutely.

Not when He mentions all nations. All nations gather at Armageddon for example. That never happened.

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Sigh... you make this too easy...

Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Did that happen?
Yes.

And Rome led a multinational coalition against Israel in 66 AD. Assyria alone sent 5000 troops to aid in the fight.

The scripture is dead when we can't see the life and meaning beyond some poetic ancient history.

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So all the scriptures foretelling about Jesus' birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection are "dead" because they have already been fulfilled in the past?

Are you serious?

I have made my points on this issue. No sense arguing I will not be changing my mind.

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Oh I'm not posting to change your mind... in fact I hope you don't.
There are myriad of lurkers here on CF who are searching, reading and yearning for truth. I post for them. I covet Your staunch opposition. It gives them clarity and a stark contrast for them to marinate upon as the form their own position.

parousia70 said:

Without question. Absolutely.



Sigh... you make this too easy...

Acts 2:5
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Did that happen?
Yes.

And Rome led a multinational coalition against Israel in 66 AD. Assyria alone sent 5000 troops to aid in the fight.



So all the scriptures foretelling about Jesus' birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection are "dead" because they have already been fulfilled in the past?

Are you serious?




Oh I'm not posting to change your mind... in fact I hope you don't.
There are myriad of lurkers here on CF who are searching, reading and tearing for truth. I post for them. I covet Your staunch opposition. It gives them clarity and a stark contrast for them to marinate upon as the form their own position.

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Have you some reason to assume that people from every nation that was under God were not there?

dad said:

Have you some reason to assume that people from every nation that was under God were not there?

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You quoted my entire post but only attempt to address this one point?

I know you can do better. (but I won't hold my breath)

Ok, fine. I'll reduce the conversation to the lowest denominator, as you wish...

Your claim is that...Australian? Japanese? Chinese? South American? Native American Jews were there?

When did trans oceanic travel commence?

What tribe are the Japanese Jews from again? I forgot..

dad said:

How about this?

9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10 He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

That happened in a battle in Israel?? Really? You think God came down to earth riding an angel there!!! Ha

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You betcha.

All past tense.

David said it happened. Don't you believe him?

Of course, he understood the meaning and power of the metaphoric apocalyptic idiom.

You should, too.

Archivist said:

And other statements in scripture have been identified as signaling the end times and thus far they have all been wrong.

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What other passage in the bible is generation specific, than the parable of the fig tree?

And what happens if Jesus does not return by 2030? You will be just as disappointed as everyone else has been.

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It is not 2030 but 2037. 2030 would be the deadline for the beginning of the 70th week. I don't entertain those types of questions. I leave those to the scoffers.

Douggg said:

What other passage in the bible is generation specific, than the parable of the fig tree?

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But it is "generation specific" only if you have picked the right trigger. Lots of other people have supposedly done so and we're wrong.

It is not 2030 but 2037. 2030 would be the deadline for the beginning of the 70th week. I don't entertain those types of questions. I leave those to the scoffers.

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OK. If it happens that is fine. I'm not holding my breath.

Archivist said:

But it is "generation specific" only if you have picked the right trigger. Lots of other people have supposedly done so and we're wrong.

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You misunderstood my question. What other verse in the bible has this generation will not pass (away) - other than in the parable of the fig tree?

Douggg said:

You misunderstood my question. What other verse in the bible has this generation will not pass (away) - other than in the parable of the fig tree?

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None that I know of, but, again, others have used the same verse and been wrong. It could b referring to an event that will not happen for many years.

Archivist said:

None that I know of, but, again, others have used the same verse and been wrong. It could b referring to an event that will not happen for many years.

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Or, like EVERY OTHER USE OF "THIS GENERATION" in the NT, it referred to the generation of Christ and the Apostles....

But, Biblical precedent isn't worth much on CF...in my experience anyway.

Douggg said:

It is not 2030 but 2037.

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Why?
Based on What?

Douggg said:

What other passage in the bible is generation specific, than the parable of the fig tree?

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Genesis 7:1
Deuteronomy 1:35
Psalms 12:7
Psalms 71:18
Matthew 12:16
Matthew 12:41
Matthew 12:42
Matthew 12:45
Matthew 23:36
Mark 8:12
Mark 8:38
Mark 13:30
Luke 7:31
Luke 11:29-32
Luke 11:50-51
Luke 17:25
Acts 2:40

That's 17 other passages that are "generation specific".

But who's counting?

parousia70 said:

You quoted my entire post but only attempt to address this one point?

I know you can do better. (but I won't hold my breath)

Ok, fine. I'll reduce the conversation to the lowest denominator, as you wish...

Your claim is that...Australian? Japanese? Chinese? South American? Native American Jews were there?

When did trans oceanic travel commence?

What tribe are the Japanese Jews from again? I forgot..

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Firstly I am not sure it means Jews. Secondly, you think there were Australian Jews at the time of Christ?

dad said:

Firstly I am not sure it means Jews.

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Boy, for a hyper literalist you sure are fast and loose with your non literal interpretations...

Acts 2:5
Now there were staying in Jerusalem devout JEWS from every nation under heaven.

What about that passage that says JEWS, makes you unsure it means JEWS?

Secondly, you think there were Australian Jews at the time of Christ?

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Does "every nation" mean "every nation"?... or are you "now" arguing for some wiggle room?

When you attempt to hold my view to a standard you don't want your view to be held to, it completely devastates your argument. Just sayin'.

You may consider changing your "undefeated" tag line soon... 12-1 is still respectable

parousia70 said:

Or, like EVERY OTHER USE OF "THIS GENERATION" in the NT, it referred to the generation of Christ and the Apostles....

But, Biblical precedent isn't worth much on CF...in my experience anyway.

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And the Apostles certainly thought that Jesus was going to return during their lifetimes.

parousia70 said:

Boy, for a hyper literalist you sure are fast and loose with your non literal interpretations...

Acts 2:5
Now there were staying in Jerusalem devout JEWS from every nation under heaven.

What about that passage that says JEWS, makes you unsure it means JEWS?

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Fair enough then. So Jews from all over were there.

Does "every nation" mean "every nation"?... or are you "now" arguing for some wiggle room?

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I would suspect it refers to every nation where Jews lived at that time. Now if you know of any nation that had a Jewish population, that did not have a rep there, do prove it.

You may consider changing your "undefeated" tag line soon... 12-1 is still respectable

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The undefeated refers to faith in God, and the creation debate. Making off the cuff remarks on items in overly long posts does not mean I need to be correct all the time to remain victorious.

On the issue of prophesy in Scripture I am right. It jumps sometimes mid verse far into the future. Jesus showed us a prime example of that.

On the issue of the end times and Revelaton, it is certain I am right that this was not in the past. As I pointed out there is NO way all the things in the book happened yet.

As for the Acts thingie, well, we wait to hear if there were Jews in Australia as you indicated?