Self-sacrificing Saints

The scripture there is no greater love than giving up your life for your friends I think can be taken to also mean dying to your desires for accomplishing your friend's desires.

bettercallpaul said:

But maybe society needs more of them these days. Too many people more aware of their rights than their responsibilities.

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There is a deep wisdom in self-sacrifice. To the foolish, it appears as if a saint is just suffering out of blind obedience to God, which is his obligation as a Christian. In reality, self-sacrifice proves our faithfulness to God and paves the way for greater reward, honor and responsibility in eternity.

Only there is a difference between subservience to human beings and self-sacrifice in obedience to God. I am no man's (or woman's) slave. Should God be telling me to do one thing, they can go so far as to threaten my life and they still won't see me bowing down. That includes employers. God will provide for me, regardless of if I get fired or not. On the other hand, if I feel God is calling me to be self-sacrificing to someone for the sake of the gospel, I will be. Going the extra mile for a Roman soldier was a good example of this (Matthew 5:41).

There are times when God calls us to be self-sacrificing and other times when He will not. Take Paul for instance. There were numerous times when he was miraculously delivered from his persecutors in order to continue his ministry (Acts 16:23-30, 2 Corinthians 11:33). Yet he eventually allowed himself to be martyred as the ultimate sacrifice, but only after he had finished his ministry.

In a similar way, He likewise taught slaves that they were to serve their masters faithfully as long as they were bound to them, yet if they were given the chance to have the freedom to do as they pleased, they were to by all means take it. (1 Corinthians 7:20-22).

In short, the teaching was that Christians are free from all men and slaves only to God, yet willingly become slaves to men when God calls them to it if doing so might help bring others to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:18-22).

Hidden In Him said:

There is a deep wisdom in self-sacrifice. To the foolish, it appears as if a saint is just suffering out of blind obedience to God, which is his obligation as a Christian. In reality, self-sacrifice proves our faithfulness to God and paves the way for greater reward, honor and responsibility in eternity.

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What's interesting there is that it seems to imply that self-sacrifice isn't a virtue in and of itself, but something one might do in order to get rewarded later or to kiss up to the big boss on the sky. The implied dynamic is a lot like when a person has a job- they work hard to get paychecks and potentially promotions, and then if they make enough money, they retire young and hit the beach. So, is sacrifice intrinsically a virtue or is it more like a task to achieve a non-obvious delayed end that is nothing like the task itself?

I'm just throwing that out there for deeper discussion.

I wonder if heaven is really like its commonly assumed to be.

A Buddhist was once asked what he'd do if he was wrong about the Christian afterlife not existing, wouldn't he want to go to heaven instead of hell? He said he'd rather go to hell to minister to the suffering there and relieve their agnony to whatever small extent he could. I always thought that was an interesting answer.

More than self-sacrifice, I think it's called purposeful living. There was balance in the Gospels--Jesus fasted forty days in the dessert, but he also celebrated at weddings and spent lots of time talking and dining with good friends.

If you encounter the need to sacrifice as part of fulfilling your life's purpose, then by all means sacrifice at that time. On the other hand. mortification and self-punishment that isn't connected to one's purpose is just over-the-top-crazy, as far as I can see.

A priest I know decided to fast this Lent---REALLY fast...he had nothing but water and tea for two whole weeks. He told his doctor they'd look at it together after two weeks and decide if he needed to stop.

On or about the 14th day, he said he felt dizzy while driving (and what a catastrophe THAT could have been) and said, "Food. I need food." He is now practicing a moderate Lenten diet--one larger meal, two smaller ones. He also said he felt tired--and he is someone with a very giving spirit, who didn't have the energy to give as much during his fast.

Saintliness is living according to one's purpose, wherever that leads.

Fantine said:

More than self-sacrifice, I think it's called purposeful living. There was balance in the Gospels--Jesus fasted forty days in the dessert, but he also celebrated at weddings and spent lots of time talking and dining with good friends.

If you encounter the need to sacrifice as part of fulfilling your life's purpose, then by all means sacrifice at that time. On the other hand. mortification and self-punishment that isn't connected to one's purpose is just over-the-top-crazy, as far as I can see.

A priest I know decided to fast this Lent---REALLY fast...he had nothing but water and tea for two whole weeks. He told his doctor they'd look at it together after two weeks and decide if he needed to stop.

On or about the 14th day, he said he felt dizzy while driving (and what a catastrophe THAT could have been) and said, "Food. I need food." He is now practicing a moderate Lenten diet--one larger meal, two smaller ones. He also said he felt tired--and he is someone with a very giving spirit, who didn't have the energy to give as much during his fast.

Saintliness is living according to one's purpose, wherever that leads.

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Going off topic for just a moment because I would like to say... Welcome back, Fantine. You have been missed.

Thank you, my friend. Here we can continue building the kingdom together (with renewable energy and recycled products!) In unity there is strength.

Fish and Bread said:

What's interesting there is that it seems to imply that self-sacrifice isn't a virtue in and of itself, but something one might do in order to get rewarded later or to kiss up to the big boss on the sky. The implied dynamic is a lot like when a person has a job- they work hard to get paychecks and potentially promotions, and then if they make enough money, they retire young and hit the beach. So, is sacrifice intrinsically a virtue or is it more like a task to achieve a non-obvious delayed end that is nothing like the task itself?

I'm just throwing that out there for deeper discussion.

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Ha! I'm glad you added that last sentence. The words "kissing up" smacked a little of being a tad insulting (but no offense taken).

Both are true. God will reward our virtuous behaviors precisely because they are virtuous, and pleasing in His eyes. As for our motivations, I suppose there are some who may be doing so more for reward's sake than for the virtue of it, but I generally take such people to be more fleshly and self-centered in their desires, and these are usually the same sorts of people who can't wait for rewards and therefore pursue after the world and immediate fleshly rewards instead. As for me, I couldn't care less about reward and status in eternity, as I don't care for them in the least here. I just want to obey and please God.

Fish and Bread said:

I wonder if heaven is really like its commonly assumed to be.

A Buddhist was once asked what he'd do if he was wrong about the Christian afterlife not existing, wouldn't he want to go to heaven instead of hell? He said he'd rather go to hell to minister to the suffering there and relieve their agnony to whatever small extent he could. I always thought that was an interesting answer.

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What the Buddhist said was certainly noble, but not really based on wisdom. If he does end up in Hell, he'll be too busy suffering in torment himself to be able to help anyone. He'd be defeating his own purposes.

Thanks for the response. I always love having people to talk scripture with, and I'm very glad I joined this site.

Double posted by accident.

If anyone can tell me how to delete posts here, I'll do so.

Fantine said:

More than self-sacrifice, I think it's called purposeful living. There was balance in the Gospels--Jesus fasted forty days in the dessert, but he also celebrated at weddings and spent lots of time talking and dining with good friends.

If you encounter the need to sacrifice as part of fulfilling your life's purpose, then by all means sacrifice at that time. On the other hand. mortification and self-punishment that isn't connected to one's purpose is just over-the-top-crazy, as far as I can see.

A priest I know decided to fast this Lent---REALLY fast...he had nothing but water and tea for two whole weeks. He told his doctor they'd look at it together after two weeks and decide if he needed to stop.

On or about the 14th day, he said he felt dizzy while driving (and what a catastrophe THAT could have been) and said, "Food. I need food." He is now practicing a moderate Lenten diet--one larger meal, two smaller ones. He also said he felt tired--and he is someone with a very giving spirit, who didn't have the energy to give as much during his fast.

Saintliness is living according to one's purpose, wherever that leads.

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Hmmm... fasting, REAL fasting, can bring much greater benefits IMHO than just being able to provide others with conventional ministry. Jesus promised that if believers fasted in secret He would reward them openly (Matthew 6:16-18). That is therefore not talking about heavenly rewards but a reward from the Father that others would witness you being given. I believe He meant being rewarded with the spiritual blessings of greater revelation from God, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In my humble opinion, your preist should be commended, and encouraged to go even farther next time, so long as he is coupling his fasting with intensive and directed prayer to receive the blessings to help God's people on an even deeper level.

Hidden In Him said:

In my humble opinion, your preist should be commended, and encouraged to go even farther next time, so long as he is coupling his fasting with intensive and directed prayer to receive the blessings to help God's people on an even deeper level.

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When you're driving along a road and feel as if you might faint--you've gone far enough! Endangering others through your fast isn't advisable.