Is "Pro-Choice" the right "choice" for a Christian to make? Why or why not?

St_Worm2 said:

As is common, the title of your thread does not match your text. You asked: Is "Pro-Choice" the right "choice" for a Christian to make? Why or why not?

Click to expand...

The answer is, "of course it is." You have the right to jump off a cliff, don't you? And you have the right to step out in front of a fast moving truck, don't you? So then, you have the God-given right to be stupid, don't you? So then, go ahead, be stupid.

DingDing, no offense, but that makes no sense. He's asking if pro-choice is the right choice, not a choice. You have a choice to jump off a cliff, you have a choice to step out in front of a fast (or slow) moving truck, but would those be the right choice? I doubt it!

So I think the answer to the OP question is actually no. Pro-Choice is not the right choice for a Christian to make. But I wouldn't limit that answer to applicable to just Christians either, I would say it's the wrong choice for everyone.

But on a deeper level, I might challenge your overall suggestion that we have the God-given right to be stupid. I think that right may have been removed when you submitted your life to Christ. At least, Paul seems to think so.

I Corinthians 6:19,20 - Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

SPF said:

DingDing, no offense, but that makes no sense. ...

Click to expand...

You need to learn how to recognize sarcasm.

My bad I suppose. I'll do my best to assume in the future that when you post you aren't posting in a gentle, loving, kind, and Christ-like way. Online text is online text, inflection and tone have to be read into them. My bad for not assuming that you weren't just a rude smart a. Won't happen again!

St_Worm2 said:

I was a junior in high school when "Roe" became the law of the land. And for the next 13 years I was by choice, "Pro-Choice", and I remember not giving that decision a second thought. Abortion, from the first time I heard of it, seemed to make sense to me. I wasn't sexually active at the time, so I didn't have a personal stake in it, but I can remember that I approved of it as if it had always been the way of things (when, of course, it hadn't been).

But a miracle happened to me 13 years later. On November, 2nd, 1986, I became a Christian, and EVERYTHING changed (which included how I felt about abortion). For the first time in my life I became aware of (and now know Biblically) how intimately involved God is in bringing each new life into this world.

So my first questions are these, how do "Pro-Choice" Christians justify being "Pro-Choice" before God? Do you believe that God approves of abortion in most or all cases and, if you do, why do you believe that? Also, if your position is, "I personally disapprove of abortion, but will not judge someone else who has an abortion", please justify your claim with a Christian argument."

Thanks everyone, let's begin

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - Just to be clear from the get-go, I believe that in the very rare case of a pregnancy that poses a real and immediate threat to the mother's life, attending physicians must do everything in their power to save both the mother and the child. But if that is not possible, and the physicians decide that both baby and mother will be tragically lost if they do not intervene, then the mother's life, of course, must be spared. For more information about this, please go here.

"He will be filled with the Holy Spirit
while yet in his mother’s womb"
Luke 1:15c​

Click to expand...

Pro-abortion is not pro-choice

Paidiske said:

It might be worth noting that I've moved on this. I used to be very "abortion should be illegal, we should make it as difficult as possible," in my approach. I've since provided care to people at all stages of the journey - from contemplating an abortion to having had one long ago - and I have more compassion for the difficulty of that journey, the costliness, the pain. I have no appetite for making that even harder than it is.

Click to expand...

Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want killing a child to be hard to do.

That's an awkward question with suspect poll choices.
IMHO, that is, my opinion not to be construed as an official position of any church body:
I believe the teaching from the church and scripture is clear that a Christian should NEVER consider abortion. period.

As it applies to a political issue, that is, a decision for others; then it gets much more murky. I am not a single issue voter. I do consider myself thoroughly pro-life (see above), which for me includes the issues of abortion, capital punishment and euthanasia, but also overlaps into issues of poverty, health care, war, guns, immigration, and protection of minorities. I try to look at every issue through the lens of life being sacred, all of it.

This is a complicated issue.
70% of abortions are by those who claim to be Christian.
No party has a consistent platform as I see it, so I don’t vote party line.
I try to prayerfully vote for the best candidate.

South Bound said:

Yeah, we certainly wouldn't want killing a child to be hard to do.

Click to expand...

I have found that if you treat a mother considering abortion with gentleness and compassion, she is more likely to be able to consider all her options. Browbeat her and she's more likely to feel trapped and act out of fear.

Paidiske said:

I have found that if you treat a mother considering abortion with gentleness and compassion, she is more likely to be able to consider all her options. Browbeat her and she's more likely to feel trapped and act out of fear.

Click to expand...

Right. And because you're a progressive, you think the only two choices are "compassion" or "browbeating". It would never occur to you that one can show compassion to both the other and the child.

Why doesn't the child deserve your compassion as well? Jesus thought they did. But what does He know?

Please define progressive? I'm not sure I'm willing to accept that label from you.

The child does deserve my compassion. But I can't deal with the child in utero. I can only deal with the child through the mother, and - I'm only reflecting on my own experience here - I've found I'm able to do that more effectively if I can have a conversation where she feels safe, respected and empowered to make her own decisions. Guilt trips are counter productive.

Now of course I'm speaking from within a particular role; and I'm reflecting on situations like pastoral care at the hospital bedside. Other people, with different experiences, might say something different. But for me, in my role, in the situations I've encountered, I've found this to be true.

SPF said:

My bad I suppose. I'll do my best to assume in the future that when you post you aren't posting in a gentle, loving, kind, and Christ-like way. Online text is online text, inflection and tone have to be read into them. My bad for not assuming that you weren't just a rude smart a. Won't happen again!

Click to expand...

Sorry, but sometimes sarcasm just seems appropriate to me.

I think black and white terms like pro-life and pro-choice don't help much. See, I do not actually like abortions. As I do not like people being killed in general. But I do not think that being hard to those who consider abortion will help a bit. After all, what you do is telling people what to do and leaving them alone. There might be plenty projects who help mothers pre and post birth, but how many of those are open to mothers who do consider strongly to have an abortion? How many would first of all listen to her without judging in the first place? How many would allow them to make up their own minds, read the bible themselves, pray themselves to the Lord and hearing His answers themselves in their lives? How many would accept it if they hear a different message?

I think as Christians (not as voters in a democratic state) we shouldn't care so much about other people's morals, but we should offer help and love even enemies.
As citizen and voters we will of course have to make up our minds, but then we cannot argue only based on a religious book.
We see killing as morally wrong but if someone threatens me with a gun and I shoot him I'll go free. One could think of other examples. As Christians we are to turn the other cheek, right? But not to the barrel of a gun it seems, though the Lord took His cross and died on it for us, and He commanded us to take up our own crosses, we rather put crosses on other's backs, leaving them alone as long as they don't agree with us and calling them sinners whenever we can, while we should maybe be a bit more looking after the beams in our own eyes...

God bless

tonnerkiller said:

I think black and white terms like pro-life and pro-choice don't help much. See, I do not actually like abortions. As I do not like people being killed in general. But I do not think that being hard to those who consider abortion will help a bit. After all, what you do is telling people what to do and leaving them alone. There might be plenty projects who help mothers pre and post birth, but how many of those are open to mothers who do consider strongly to have an abortion? How many would first of all listen to her without judging in the first place? How many would allow them to make up their own minds, read the bible themselves, pray themselves to the Lord and hearing His answers themselves in their lives? How many would accept it if they hear a different message?

I think as Christians (not as voters in a democratic state) we shouldn't care so much about other people's morals, but we should offer help and love even enemies.
As citizen and voters we will of course have to make up our minds, but then we cannot argue only based on a religious book.
We see killing as morally wrong but if someone threatens me with a gun and I shoot him I'll go free. One could think of other examples. As Christians we are to turn the other cheek, right? But not to the barrel of a gun it seems, though the Lord took His cross and died on it for us, and He commanded us to take up our own crosses, we rather put crosses on other's backs, leaving them alone as long as they don't agree with us and calling them sinners whenever we can, while we should maybe be a bit more looking after the beams in our own eyes...

God bless

Click to expand...

I'm not seeing your point.

My point is: You ask the wrong question when you ask for reasons to support either pro-life or pro-choice. That's just a debate about abstract terms. But as Christians we are to deal with living people. So I think a better approach would be questions like: How can I serve and avoid bossing people around? This goes to both directions

God bless

St_Worm2 said:

This has never been about judging anyone

Click to expand...

Well? If you look at this:

St_Worm2 said:

simply for the sake of the mother's convenience in over 99% of the cases

Click to expand...

This appears to be VERY judging, but maybe it's just me... How do you know it's the "convenience"? Wouldn't it be more convenient to use condoms or the pill?So I do doubt a lot it's all about convenience. I do think it's about fear, about real big problems, about seeing no other way out.

St_Worm2 said:

Also, what kind of "help" are you suggesting that we offer that is not already being offered

Click to expand...

Compassion. There might be people who give compassion to some, but there needs to be so much more. Blaming the women will get you nowhere except to hate and separation. Go there, talk with them, be open minded towards them. Yes, there is the chance the child might be aborted then, but if you do the blame and shame game, chances are very high that there will be an abortion. So what do you prefer? Being stubborn right or having the child being born?

St_Worm2 said:

who are these "enemies" you speak of?

Click to expand...

Those people you try to defeat and conquer. In this case the mothers. You appear to know best what's good for them, without even bothering about them. They appear not as individual people in your post, but as objects you want changed. You cite Melody Green with the individuality of the baby in the womb, but you see no individuality in the mothers who have abortion. For you, 99% of them want an abortion for convenience. Ever thought about this?

Another thing: If there is 1% who does not go that road for convenience, wouldn't a more compassionate approach be worth the while to help them having the baby? Even if 99% have an abortion for convenience (and I think the number's wrong), wouldn't the 1% be worth the compassion you "waste" on all the others?

God bless

St_Worm2 said:

Hi TK, the statistics I spoke of are not "judgments", they're "facts", that's all.

Click to expand...

You didn't speak about statistics, you made an allegation. You didn't even use the word "statistics".

St_Worm2 said:

Abortion for the sake of "convenience" (which makes up about 99.4% of all abortions)

Click to expand...

And you keep making allegations.

St_Worm2 said:

because they are abortions which are 1) performed where there is no risk to the life/health of the mother and are 2) performed where her pregnancy is the result of consensual sex, not rape or incest.

Click to expand...

So if a young woman is pressured by her family or boyfriend to "get rid of it", she has an abortion out of convenience? If she does not see how to make ends meet it's convenience? If she suffers from depressions it's out of convenience? You seem to be very legalistic: Black and white. IF-THEN-ELSE. There's no gray, there's no room for grace. I invite you to look at the person and not the case, look at what drives her than at what drives you to consider one okay and the other wrong.

St_Worm2 said:

Abortions for the sake of convenience are performed for mothers who wanted to have sex and became pregnant, but decided that they didn't want to have a child.

Click to expand...

Such mothers would have used the pill or condoms or other means of contraception. Abortions are very riskful to the mother, compared to contraception, so I assume the numer of women going that path to be very very small, if any.

St_Worm2 said:

Quite frankly, moms who choose abortion are, in a sense, victims themselves

Click to expand...

Halleluyah, you start understanding me. So how do we heal that? With blaming them for the wounds the prince of this world caused? By denying the wound and telling them to stop bleeding? Certainly not. We have to heal the wound, then the bleeding will stop.

St_Worm2 said:

Abortion is the law of the land, so for those of us involved in the Pro-Life movement, our only tools are compassion, understanding, and truth.

Click to expand...

Sorry to say that, but proclaiming over 99% of the women having an abortion doing it out of convenience, doesn't sound very compassionate or understanding. And as I said, I doubt it's the truth.

St_Worm2 said:

er" anyone TK, rather, we're trying to save everyone involved in this tragedy called abortion

Click to expand...

That's a noble thing to do. But I think you'd save more if you didn't condemn (99% etc) so much. Don't look down on these women, help them up. But help them, don't force them.
See, here in Germany abortions are illegal but not persecuted under certain circumstances. You need to have counseling and have the abortion within the first three months in general.
The counselors, especially those of the protestant church, give all information they have, addresses of care centers and what not. But they will not press the women to keeping the baby. They leave them the freedom to decide that on their own. Because when the mother decides freely to have the child, it is best.
Before we had this ruling, women had illegal abortions. There were no counseling places for those doubting, so in most cases they'd put their own health at risk although there might have been chances to better their situation so they are confident with having the child.
Although I do oppose abortion in general,I consider this the better solution: to leave the freedom to the mother and support her with anything she needs, without any pressure. I do deeply believe that love will prevail, so here.
Of course, you don't save 100% this way, but you save way more than the other way. A quick search on the web showed me that the abortion rate per 1000 women is shrinking in Germany as in the USA, so the actual legislation seems to work for the better, doesn't it?
Of course, things could always be even better than now, but don't you think it would be wiser to follow a promising path rather than turning around for the sake of being morally right but threatening thousands?

St_Worm2 said:

We attempt to bring the truth to bear for the sake of BOTH parties (mother and child), and to help birth moms with their pregnancies (and their lives in general) both before AND after they give birth.

Click to expand...

If the mother decides to have an abortion, will your help end there or not? If it does end, it's a form of pressure.

St_Worm2 said:

Being judgmental towards birth moms and/or treating them harshly in other ways would only result in more abortions being performed (as I believe you already mentioned), not less, and would also result in more birth moms lives being ruined due to their choice to abort, rather than give birth to their children

Click to expand...

I see we are close together here, but still: Does the compassion depend on their decision to keep the baby or not, or is it like the free love of God for sinners and saints alike?

God bless

St_Worm2 said:

"I personally disapprove of abortion, but will not judge someone else who has an abortion", please justify your claim with a Christian argument."

Click to expand...

Treat others, just as you would have them treat you.
This is the foundation of the scriptures.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.
Not the Pro-Life agenda.

tonnerkiller said:

I invite you to look at the person and not the case, look at what drives her than at what drives you to consider one okay and the other wrong.

Click to expand...

Tonner, the problem with your approach is that you're ignoring the person that actually matters - the unborn child. From a Christian perspective, and therefore from the perspective of reality - intentionally killing the innocent human life inside a mother's womb is morally wrong. It isn't a gray issue in the least.

Consider the mother of a 1 year old child. Let's say she just got a divorce and her husband doesn't want anything to do with her and her child. let's say he was also the only one who provided income. Let's also say that the now single mother of a 1 year old has no education and no family to fall back on for support, and she now has no home or vehicle. Would you think it OK for this mother to kill her 1 year old child because things have just gotten difficult for her? What if her family pressured her to do it, would that make it OK? No, it would be murder. It wouldn't be a gray issue.

This is the starting point. The human life inside the mother's womb is an innocent human and killing them is morally wrong. Period. Not gray. Just like it's not gray that lust is wrong. It's not gray that coveting is wrong. It's not gray that adultery is wrong. It's not gray that idolatry is wrong. Killing the human life inside a womb is a form of murder - and murder is not a gray issue.

What we need to do is start with that and acknowledge that.