Athonite Monks and "Seeing God"

abacabb3

Newbie
Jul 14, 2013
3,215
561
✟82,184.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
they pray, and God gifts them with a vision of Himself as He sees fit. for us, this is not controversial but is Biblical.
Just praying? Is there extreme fasting? What's the earliest attestations to this being that it only became controversial in the 14th century?

Augustine appears to write about a similar experience him and his mother had simply by discussing what heaven would be like:

And when our conversation had arrived at that point, that the very highest pleasure of the carnal senses, and that in the very brightest material light, seemed by reason of the sweetness of that life not only not worthy of comparison, but not even of mention, we, lifting ourselves with a more ardent affection towards the Selfsame, did gradually pass through all corporeal things, and even the heaven itself, whence sun, and moon, and stars shine upon the earth; yea, we soared higher yet by inward musing, and discoursing, and admiring Your works
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,559
20,077
41
Earth
✟1,465,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
well, prayer and fasting can open one up to receive the gift, but the vision of God is a gift He gives as He sees fit.

aside from Scripture (ie the Transfiguration, Moses on Mt Sinai, John's Revelation) you can see this in the dialogue between St Justin and Trypho as far as early patristics goes.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Via Cassian
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,559
20,077
41
Earth
✟1,465,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
What's the earliest attestations to this being that it only became controversial in the 14th century?

it became contentious in the 13th and 14th centuries because the West held on to the view that God, being absolutely simple, is the Divine essence, and grace is therefore created. the Orthodox hold that grace is uncreated, and is God Himself in creation. so we believe that God communicates to man through both created and uncreated means, whereas the West held to only through created means since God is only simple essence.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Via Cassian
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Are you refering to being internally illuminated by the uncreated Light? In Acts Paul was said to have been blinded by the Light while his fellow travellers only heard some rumblings. I think this hesychism mysticism was unknown to western monastics and not a universal practise in the east neither.
Keep in mind St Siluan the Athonite was said to have experienced both the uncreated Light and the Resurrected Jesus in material bodily form appeared to him as happened to Paul.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,559
20,077
41
Earth
✟1,465,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,589
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,180,783.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
An example from St Paisios.

One afternoon, I went to see Father Paisios. During these days, I was possessed by a certain haughtiness which was derived from the lack of warmth in my poor prayer life. When I began to control my unrestrained mind, I started seeing things more lucidly. However, as I did not have a humble attitude, I thought I had reached a certain spiritual state and I was bragging about it.
I went to see the Elder to confide in him my thoughts, which were imbued by the sense of haughtiness I just described. Father Paisios listened to me and without saying anything in specific, started telling me the following story:

-Yesterday, a monk visited me and told me something which made me recall the incident I am about to tell you.
One night, I was in my cell at Katounakia saying the Jesus prayer and gradually I was possessed by a heavenly joy. Simultaneously, my cell, whose darkness was interrupted only by the trembling flame of a candle, was filled with a beautiful white-blue light. At the beginning, the light was very strong. I felt that my eyes were also “getting stronger” in order to withstand the glow. It was the Uncreated Light! I stayed in my cell for many hours, losing sense of all earthy things and living in a spiritual world, very different from this one.
While being in this state of the Uncreated Light and heavenly experiences, I lost all sense of time.

At one point the Uncreated Light started fading away and I was back to my old state of being. I began to feel hungry, so I took a piece of bread to eat. Then, I was thirsty and had some water to drink. I was getting tired and I needed to sit down and get some rest. I felt like an animal and I deplored myself for it. The change from one situation back to the other gave birth to a natural humbleness. Having experienced the difference between the spiritual state I was found in and my earthly needs, there was nothing left for me but to despise and blame myself for it.
Further down from my cell, another monk was residing. I looked outside and had the impression it was still night with a full moon. I went out and asked him:
-What time is it? It seems that dawn hasn’t broken yet this morning.
The monk looked astonished and asked me:
- What did you say, Father Paisios? I didn’t understand.
Only then, I realized what had happened. It was ten in the morning and the “full moon” I thought I had seen was the sun. The Uncreated Light was so strong that it made daylight and the sun look like a night with a full moon. The difference between the light of the sun and the Uncreated Light was like the one between night and day.
When the Elder finished his story, he told me to go, as there were other people waiting to see him. I made my way back to my cell only slightly realized my beastly state of being.​

Wondrous events
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,021,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yeah...what is that? What is it supposed to look like? How many people have historically experienced it?
I was thinking about you the other day. I found the liturgy history book I mentioned earlier. Could you remind me what you wanted to know? My mind is a bit fuzzy lately :)
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Yeah...what is that? What is it supposed to look like? How many people have historically experienced it?

Since I've never experienced it I cannot say. We know Paul in his Damascus conversion experienced it, others only heard thundering's but Paul was temporarily blinded. We also know Paul witnessed the risen Lord in His material form as Paul recounts how Jesup first appeared to Kephas then to the 12 and then to 500 people and finally to him in the same manner. This was the same experience with St. Silouan both as Light and as the Risen Lord he appeared to him.
I remember reading an account of a holy person thrown into the gulags during the Soviet persecution. It was a very cold and depressing dark cell. He prayed for some comfort and it felt as his cell illumined as if he was transported, the cold was vanquished and he found peace in his heart.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Just praying? Is there extreme fasting? What's the earliest attestations to this being that it

I think part of the controversy in the 14th century was the meditative aspect's of reciting the Jesus Prayer. The stillness and silence (hesychia) while looking towards the naval. I believe there maybe some breathing techniques as well. There was also discussion on whether the energies of God are created or uncreated.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,559
20,077
41
Earth
✟1,465,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think part of the controversy in the 14th century was the meditative aspect's of reciting the Jesus Prayer. The stillness and silence (hesychia) while looking towards the naval. I believe there maybe some breathing techniques as well. There was also discussion on whether the energies of God are created or uncreated.

right, because Barlaam thought you could only know about God through speculation and philosophy, rather than through direct means. so he was scandalized when he saw the monks praying and claiming they could experience God as He is in His grace.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

abacabb3

Newbie
Jul 14, 2013
3,215
561
✟82,184.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was thinking about you the other day. I found the liturgy history book I mentioned earlier. Could you remind me what you wanted to know? My mind is a bit fuzzy lately :)
Thanks for thinking of me ! I was interested in the development of the liturgy and when they chose and wrote the hymns that are in it. I am just wondering what centuries we are talking about :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,559
20,077
41
Earth
✟1,465,849.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for thinking of me ! I was interested in the development of the liturgy and when they chose and wrote the hymns that are in it. I am just wondering what centuries we are talking about :)

sometimes it depended on what was happening historically. as an example, the successor of Justinian inserted the Creed into the Liturgy to stamp that Chalcedon did not invent a new Creed of the Church.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,021,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for thinking of me ! I was interested in the development of the liturgy and when they chose and wrote the hymns that are in it. I am just wondering what centuries we are talking about :)
Sounds good. Today is a bit crazy (got home late, visiting with family), but I will pull together some info soon. :)
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,683
8,019
PA
Visit site
✟1,021,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I may post a few things as I remember them / find them.

Cherubic Hymn was definitely in the liturgy by mid-sixth century (perhaps earlier). I believe the Hymn was written earlier though. Some say it goes by to St John Chrysostom but that's not as certain as the mid-sixth century date.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

abacabb3

Newbie
Jul 14, 2013
3,215
561
✟82,184.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
sometimes it depended on what was happening historically. as an example, the successor of Justinian inserted the Creed into the Liturgy to stamp that Chalcedon did not invent a new Creed of the Church.
Yeah, its the dating I am interested in, so this is interesting.

Went to my first Pascha service last night/this morning. :)
 
Upvote 0