Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

BobRyan said:

I have no idea who that is ... but I do know this - being a software enigneer does not qualify one to be called "pastor"



1. Because I have told you before that I am not a pastor.
2. I don't know what "other forum" you speak about that I have quit. Is it the baptist discussion board?

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I was totally wrong and I apologize for making that claim. Yes, it was on the Baptist forum that I saw a discussion with a person, I believe was from Arkansas, and I thought he addressed you as pastor. After rereading the post I find that he is pastor Bob. Ouch, that egg on my face is hard to get off. I have a noodle boiling so I can give myself a few lashing with a wet noodle as soon as it is limber enough. :-(

In any case I have never gone by the name/title/claim "Pastor Bob Ryan" on any board ... in all of time.

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And again I hope that you will accept my apology and hope no harm has been done. In Christ, Bob

BobRyan said:

That is speculation.

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Is it also "speculation" that Jesus ratified with His blood the new and better covenant at Calvary? There is no "speculation" that either Jesus fulfilled the whole law at Calvary or He didn't fulfill any of it. The reason being is that He had just stated that not one jot would pass from Torah until all was fulfilled. If all is not fulfilled then yes Jews are still under every jot of Torah and if you think becoming a Christian makes you a Jew then by all means observe Sabbath and all the trimmings. You had better use your time building a new Temole to replace the one torn down 70 years after Jesus said it would be destroyed. And you better disregard the favt that at Jesus death the veil in the Temple was ripped apart. If Jesus didn't complete the task He came to do then God is not able to do everything He sets out to do.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

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Do you see a 10 in front of commandments. If Jesus had wanted us to keep Torah I believe He would have said just that.

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Exodus 20:6

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Just who was the listening ears to that speech. I believe it was those who had been in bondage in Egypt and some that believed and decided to join with the Israelites who would have had to be circumcised and become Israelites. The commandments God was about to give the Israelites there at Sinai had never ever been given to any other nation or group. 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

1 John 5:2-3 we show LOVE for God by KEEPING His commandments -- instead of downsizing and breaking them.

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What are keeping God's commands for Christians. Well John didn't leave us wondering or to the "speculation" of you Bob. He plainly gave us the answer in 1Jn 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Unlike you Bob, John gave us the real meaning of the word command. He certainly didn't raise the issue of keeping days which your church has built its name on and thinks there is a halo around the 4th commandment. If it is really that important why throughout all of the new covenant is it not mentioned to be the greatest command or for that matter even mentioned as being any part of the Christian's life?

And Christ made the statement that His work was to strongly AFFIRM rather then deny/delete/replace the Word of God - scripture, the Commandments of God. -- as we saw in the OP

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Being opposed is/was never an issue. What seems to be your issue is that we are still under the old covenant, well lets be clear, a few parts of it, the ones your prophet tells you you are under. If Jesus didn't change anything in the old covenant then why does your church not teach every part of the old covenant as part of their belief system?

The point remains.

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Only in your mind or maybe just for argument sake.

I am surprised that you say that - as reply to my post of 'you quoting you'.

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No Bob, you deny the truth that Paul writes and you know very well that you do. You never answer forthright the questions or statements concerning Paul' writings. Beating around the bush doesn't ever give us direct heart derived answers.

Are you Paul?

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No, but I can and do relate to him. It appears that you have a quarrel with his writings thus he is a thorn in the side of you and the SDA church.

BobRyan said:

so then in your view - all Christianity is in error? I think that may be another thread/topic. (Saturday resurrection?)

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So then in your view <<all Christianity>> is your measure or line between truth and <error>?
Yes I know it isn't your view. I do know you know you're talking against <<your view>> that the Scriptures are the measure and line, and that Jesus' Resurrection
"ON THE SABBATH GOD RESTED, FINISHED, BLESSED, HALLOWED", is no <error>, but an unbreakable thread of truth that openly and clearly runs through ALL the Scripture.

I think you know that very well, and that's why may be you want to make of it <<another thread/topic>> and proactively call it <<Saturday resurrection>>.

No! It is truth anywhere in the Scriptures; don't try categorise it in some prefabricated cage like the SDA have done with it and the Law. It is a Commandment of Jesus---this thread is the ideal place to discuss Jesus' Resurrection on the day HE IS LORD OF BECAUSE OF HIS RESURRECTION ON IT.

BobRyan said:

That is speculation.

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It would have been <speculation> had Christ not been the "nailed to the cross ... taken out of the way", "Engraved In LAW" of God's Eternal WORD, IN TIME as well as "IN THE FLESH COME" from the dead "on the Sabbath".

Man! WHY will the SDA not believe the Scriptures? WHAT can they loose? WHAT will they gain, if only they believed the Scriptures!?

O yes … They think they will save face ... and, SAVE THE SABBATH!

check http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 6, 3 Save the Sabbath.pdf

Thinkers like BobS and Bugkiller have a dilemma.

Paul says "God raised Christ by the exceeding greatness of his POWER".

Now, either, one says, like the SDA, 'There is no power in the Resurrection as far as the day of resurrection is concerned. It is just a railway side-track station Jesus had to go through on his way into the (SDA) 'heavenly sanctuary' to start his real work of atonement' -- a railway side-track station of no meaning for the day which Jesus resurrected on.
Or, like the Sundayers and admitted virtually all Christianity, one says, 'The resurrection is the very cause and basis of Jesus' completed work of atonement, which makes of the day that He rose on, allegedly the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day for the Church to worship the Lord Jesus on.'

Ironically, the antinomian, like BobS and Bugkiller, forfeits any 'benefits' the SDA on the one hand and Sunday Christianity on the other hand, claim for themselves, but seems to be quite happy with his condition bereft of all the benefits and privileges the Christian Day of Worship affords both the Church and the individual believer.

jcforever said:

Those of us in the spirit of God always obey the commandments of God for eternity.

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Boasting and pride come before one's fall and shame. So boastful and proud is man by nature, it sometimes come even after.

BobRyan said:

"How I read it"??

Romans 2 Paul affirms that the Jews (spiritual Jews) are not those that are Jews outwardly -- but rather inwardly. In Phil 3 the same point made again.

Paul also affirms the point that he did not know that he was doing wrong at the time before he became a Christin - he thought that persecuting the "sect of Judaism" that was called 'the Way' and later "Christian" was the path God wanted him to choose.

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Hello Bob.

Paul mentions one facet of the false circumcision (outward Jews).

Philippians 3:6
...as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Is legal obedience, pursuing a righteousness through the law, then a work of the flesh?

Bob S said:

Is it also "speculation" that Jesus ratified with His blood the new and better covenant at Calvary?

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Who, ever, disputed?!

Your words: <<Jesus ratified>> --<ratified>. Does not to ratify mean to prove, confirm, stamp approval, authenticity?

What? <<the new and better covenant>> made in the Eternal Council of God, <<at Calvary>>!

But what are you actually trying to say with this single, coherent TRUTH?

That it is not coherent but because of its temporariness fell into disfavour with God, and broke into pieces of one useless and discarded old fragment and nine useful all of a sudden completely <new> and unfragmented <covenant>.

What sense or usefulness has that?

Bob S said:

There is no "speculation" that either Jesus fulfilled the whole law at Calvary or He didn't fulfill any of it.

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Again, who, ever, denied or said something to the contrary?

Your words: <<Jesus fulfilled>> --<fulfilled>. Does not to fulfil mean to prove, confirm, stamp approval plus also, fill, add to, finish, perfect?

Perfect what? <<the new and better covenant>> which you equate with <<the whole law>> ... the WHOLE Law which "God, SPOKE in times past in sundry ways through the prophets but in these last days spoke BY THE SON" <<at Calvary>>!

Now that is the single coherent with the nature and character of Almighty Unchangeable GOD New Covenant of Grace or it is nor ever was no Covenant of God's!

Bob S said:

The reason being is that He had just stated that not one jot would pass from Torah until all was fulfilled. If all is not fulfilled then yes Jews are still under every jot of Torah and if you think becoming a Christian makes you a Jew then by all means observe Sabbath and all the trimmings.

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Which here simply is your, BobS' <trimmings> -- <trimmings> to your own embroidering about <jots of Torah> that would <<not pass>>, but <<passed from Torah>> -- <Torah> which both he, BobS, and <<He (Jesus) had just stated>> that He had <fulfilled>.

Bob S said:

Just who was the listening ears to that speech. I believe it was those who had been in bondage in Egypt and some that believed and decided to join with the Israelites who would have had to be circumcised and become Israelites.

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No; they were only sinners in need of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sin <<who had to be>> NOTHING nor <<had to become>> NOTHING.

Nothing man --- like I and you have to be NOTHING and if we are not nothing but something, have to become NOTHING.

BobRyan said:

Let's "simplify" for the sake of your question.

taking God's name in vain is wrong - for Christians .... like it or not.

But that does mean we can earn salvation by not taking God's name in vain.

It also does not mean that a Christian claiming salvation - who then freely chooses to take God's name in vain - will still go to heaven.

So now... Phil 3.
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.NASB

Phil 3 -- NKJ
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Pressing Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Romans 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified.

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Hello Bob.

You did not answer my question.

Is legal obedience, pursuing a righteousness through the law, then a work of the flesh?

klutedavid said:

Hello Bob.

You did not answer my question.

Is legal obedience, pursuing a righteousness through the law, then a work of the flesh?

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If I may say, certainly yes; a worthless futile <<work of the flesh>>.

But you know, I have to meet the person who is so blunt as to not know it. Who is going to tell the world his <obedience>, is a <<legal obedience, pursuing a righteousness through the law>>? You just don't find such people or declarations YET THAT EXACTLY is like, and in fact is, EVERYONE OF US.

Now what can it have to do with the meaning of the Scriptures or of the Law or of justification through faith? Or with the Sabbath for the People of God?

What are we trying out next to circumvent confrontation with God's Word He "concerning the Seventh Day spoke by the Son in these last days" FOR these last days and FOR the People of God remaining his People and remaining the Lord Jesus' Day-of-worship-rest?
Just not take or make note of it...as simple as that...dust our hands...and walk on...

...do with the Sabbath what the SDA do with the Resurrection of Christ on it!

BobRyan said:

The saved ones did - the lost ones were lost.

Just as John the baptizer's father - a priest.... worshiped the true God while some other priests were lost.

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Feel free not to respond to this if you wish, but I was wondering something. You must believe I am committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience. For even if you dont accept you cannot be ignorant of the law placed in your heart and written on your mind, I could not have any excuse for ignorance concerning this subject could I. Nor could anyone else who comes to these kind of websites I imagine. We all know the seventh day sabbath was a saturday, and the church changed the sabbath day to a sunday a coulple of hundred years after Calvary(or whenever it was) And, there are countless millions who go to church who also know this, who, according to what you believe must also be in open, wilfull rebellion against God without conscience.
Now I know we all come on websites such as these to defend our own particular beliefs at any cost. But I have wondered, if in your reflective moments you actually consider whether you do fully believe, that millions of Christians, go to church each week to worship God, but are in open, wilfull rebellion against God concerning one of the Ten Commandments, as written he expects them to keep, and they do so without conscience.
Do you believe anyone can be a Christian and be in open, wilfull rebellion against God without conscisence? I do not believe such a thing is possible. So when you chat to me, you must believe you are chatting to a heathen, unsaved, sinner who is condemned!

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:

Again, who, ever, denied or said something to the contrary?

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When anyone insists that we must be observant of days they are denying that the law ended at Calvary.

Your words: <<Jesus fulfilled>> --<fulfilled>. Does not to fulfil mean to prove, confirm, stamp approval plus also, fill, add to, finish, perfect?

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I don't know about some of those Garhard, What I do know straight from the dictionary is: to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:

Perfect what? <<the new and better covenant>> which you equate with <<the whole law>> ... the WHOLE Law which "God, SPOKE in times past in sundry ways through the prophets but in these last days spoke BY THE SON" <<at Calvary>>!

Now that is the single coherent with the nature and character of Almighty Unchangeable GOD New Covenant of Grace or it is nor ever was no Covenant of God's!

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I wish I could decipher what you are telling me

stuart lawrence said:

Feel free not to respond to this if you wish, but I was wondering something. You must believe I am committing wilfull, open rebellion against God without conscience. For even if you dont accept you cannot be ignorant of the law placed in your heart and written on your mind, I could not have any excuse for ignorance concerning this subject could I. Nor could anyone else who comes to these kind of websites I imagine. We all know the seventh day sabbath was a saturday, and the church changed the sabbath day to a sunday a coulple of hundred years after Calvary(or whenever it was) And, there are countless millions who go to church who also know this, who, according to what you believe must also be in open, wilfull rebellion against God without conscience.
Now I know we all come on websites such as these to defend our own particular beliefs at any cost. But I have wondered, if in your reflective moments you actually consider whether you do fully believe, that millions of Christians, go to church each week to worship God, but are in open, wilfull rebellion against God concerning one of the Ten Commandments, as written he expects them to keep, and they do so without conscience.
Do you believe anyone can be a Christian and be in open, wilfull rebellion against God without conscisence? I do not believe such a thing is possible. So when you chat to me, you must believe you are chatting to a heathen, unsaved, sinner who is condemned!

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I don't know about Bob, but since I was once SDA I can testify that the church believes all of Christianity are, as their prophet put it, "The sins of the popular churches are whitewashed over. Many of the members indulge in the grossest vices and are steeped in iniquity. Babylon is fallen and has become the cage of every foul and hateful bird! The most revolting sins of the age find shelter beneath the cloak of Christianity. Many proclaim the law of God abolished, and surely their lives are in keeping with their faith. If there is no law, then there is no transgression, and therefore no sin; for sin is the transgression of the law." {4T 13.2}

Torah ended at Calvary. Torah included the 10 commandments. Many Christian churches in the World never delve into the covenants. They have just parroted what they were taught. The 10 commandments contained one law that was of ritual nature. The other nine commands were concerning morality, how we treat our fellow man, God and ourselves, but they were merely the tip of the iceberg. The 10 didn't even include a command to love our fellow man. They were merely a beginning point for Israel. Those who teach we are under the 10 commandments have their heads buried in the sand. Those who do not know better are targets for SDAs and Messianic groups.

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:

Thinkers like BobS and Bugkiller have a dilemma.

Paul says "God raised Christ by the exceeding greatness of his POWER".

Now, either, one says, like the SDA, 'There is no power in the Resurrection as far as the day of resurrection is concerned. It is just a railway side-track station Jesus had to go through on his way into the (SDA) 'heavenly sanctuary' to start his real work of atonement' -- a railway side-track station of no meaning for the day which Jesus resurrected on.
Or, like the Sundayers and admitted virtually all Christianity, one says, 'The resurrection is the very cause and basis of Jesus' completed work of atonement, which makes of the day that He rose on, allegedly the First Day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day for the Church to worship the Lord Jesus on.'

Ironically, the antinomian, like BobS and Bugkiller, forfeits any 'benefits' the SDA on the one hand and Sunday Christianity on the other hand, claim for themselves, but seems to be quite happy with his condition bereft of all the benefits and privileges the Christian Day of Worship affords both the Church and the individual believer.

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I do not know what you are talking about. I see no benefits of the SDA system. What benefits does Sunday Christianity claim?

Lk 24:44 is after the cross which claims all has been fulfilled according to the law, Psalms and prophets spoken about in Mat 5. This is very plain in the passage quoted below -

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

bugkiller

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:

Who, ever, disputed?!

Your words: <<Jesus ratified>> --<ratified>. Does not to ratify mean to prove, confirm, stamp approval, authenticity?

What? <<the new and better covenant>> made in the Eternal Council of God, <<at Calvary>>!

But what are you actually trying to say with this single, coherent TRUTH?

That it is not coherent but because of its temporariness fell into disfavour with God, and broke into pieces of one useless and discarded old fragment and nine useful all of a sudden completely <new> and unfragmented <covenant>.

What sense or usefulness has that?

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I do not think you understand Jer 31:31-33 or its mirror quote in Heb 8 starting at v 6.

bugkiller