DWA GADAR

DWA2DAY

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How did I ....................what Scriptures teach.

OK .... your question do I believe in monotheism.
Seems to me to be a set up question. I say this openly as I see you state your faith as Non-Trinitarian Messianic.

So from the start understand I am unfamiliar with you belief system other than you do not accept the trinity. Secondly my mission is focused on Islam. However I would love to discuss this with you. So now that you got some background on me. My initial response would be yes I do believe in monotheism. Yet that is made up of the father Son and Holy Spirit.

Ok so walk me through this - I think it will be interesting.

In the interest of not derailing this thread I have created a new thread - called DWA GADAR.
 

gadar perets

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OK .... your question do I believe in monotheism.
Seems to me to be a set up question. I say this openly as I see you state your faith as Non-Trinitarian Messianic.
Not a set up question. Just establishing common ground.

So from the start understand I am unfamiliar with you belief system other than you do not accept the trinity. Secondly my mission is focused on Islam. However I would love to discuss this with you. So now that you got some background on me. My initial response would be yes I do believe in monotheism. Yet that is made up of the father Son and Holy Spirit.
May I ask why you wrote "father" with a small "f", but capitalized "Son" and "Holy Spirit"?

Ok so walk me through this - I think it will be interesting.
I'll start with the Biblical teaching that God cannot die.

1 Timothy 6:15-16 Which in his [Yeshua's] times he [Yeshua] shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality (undying, deathlessness), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.​

These verses refer to Father YHWH (God) who no man has seen. He alone has inherent immortality. He cannot die. Yeshua died because he did not have immortality. It was Father YHWH that gave Yeshua life in himself.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
That life was given to the Son after his death. If Yeshua was equal to God as part of a trinity, he would also have had immortality and could not die. If you say only his humanity died, but his deity lived on, then he didn't really die. You may say he emptied himself of his divinity and became a man, but at the same time, most trinitarians say he healed the sick, opened blind eyes, forgave sins, resurrected himself, etc. because he was God. In these cases, he did not empty himself of his divinity, but used it to work miracles.

As God, Father YHWH cannot be tempted (James 1:13). Yet, Yeshua was tempted several times by Satan in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1-11). If you say he was only tempted in his humanity, then he was not God while being tempted. One must conclude that he was not God throughout his life in the flesh, for if he was God, then he could not be tempted.

As God, Father YHWH is omniscient. Yet, Yeshua was not since he did not know the time of his coming, but the Father did (Matthew 24:36). If you say he was not omniscient in his flesh, then he was not God in the flesh.
 
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DWA2DAY

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May I ask why you wrote "father" with a small "f", but capitalized "Son" and "Holy Spirit"?
Do not read anything into it - simply a typo - I was last in the line for typing writing grammar and spelling skills. As you will see.

I'll start with the Biblical teaching that God cannot die.

Well firstly as an over all assesment I think you are over thinking the scriptures to suit your what ever your aim is here. Remember we are talking about God we will never understand his ways I am sure you will agree. Isaiah 55:8-9 is once scripture.
Put it another way for me to accept your point of view I would have to force the scripture to resonate and talk to me, I have to force from the pages into my heart to understand what you are tying to say. That to me is not a God inspired revelation or understanding of His inspired word.

Secondly Jesus Christ is not dead is He.
Ephesians 1:19-21
and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Remember there are two death which are taught in the Bible. The first death is dying as Jesus did and all of humanity will experience. The second death is the import issue here - the separation from Gods Love. Reference Revelations 2:11, 20:6 & 14, 21:8
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”

ok with out the mention of the Spirit - smile

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

I am sure you get my point.

Thirdly if you are one of the saved then we also as humans know we will not die either.
John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Did not Jesus say that Lazarus was just sleeping! John 11:11 although we say dead, the biblical understanding is sleep and at the end of time we will be woken and sorted with the sheep and goats.

So yes if your first point is that God can not die I am in full agreement as noted above. Please understand when I say God it is in reference to the Father Son & Holy Spirit, not just Yahweh or God the Father.

In closing I find the the king James Version very difficult to read and understand, thus I am looking up all you reference in my Bible. If it is not to much trouble please copy and past any other translation. It will make easy reading.
 
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gadar perets

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Well firstly as an over all assesment I think you are over thinking the scriptures to suit your what ever your aim is here. Remember we are talking about God we will never understand his ways I am sure you will agree. Isaiah 55:8-9 is once scripture
We may not understand God's ways, but we can understand His Son. God sent His only begotten Son. He did not send Himself.

Put it another way for me to accept your point of view I would have to force the scripture to resonate and talk to me, I have to force from the pages into my heart to understand what you are tying to say. That to me is not a God inspired revelation or understanding of His inspired word.
Trinitarians already force the Scriptures to say what they want them to say. The only way the trinity can be true is by reading things into the text, ignoring the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words, taking things out of context and trusting in the creeds of men.

Secondly Jesus Christ is not dead is He.
No, he is not, but he was and that is the point. The God of Scripture cannot die, but Yeshua died (Romans 5:6 and a host of others).

Thirdly if you are one of the saved then we also as humans know we will not die either.
John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Did not Jesus say that Lazarus was just sleeping! John 11:11 although we say dead, the biblical understanding is sleep and at the end of time we will be woken and sorted with the sheep and goats.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Death befalls all men including Yeshua and all believers. It is not just we that say "dead", but the Scriptures declare the same. Here are just a few of the many.

Isa 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Our death is literal, but it is equated with sleep because it is temporary for the believer. Lazarus was dead as Yeshua said in John 11:14.





 
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DWA2DAY

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Death befalls all men including Yeshua and all believers. It is not just we that say "dead", but the Scriptures declare the same. Here are just a few of the many.

Well then Jesus is dead and Christianity has no foundation.

Our death is literal, but it is equated with sleep because it is temporary for the believer

Make a choice you can not have it both ways -

Trinitarians already force the Scriptures to say what they want them to say. The only way the trinity can be true is by reading things into the text, ignoring the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words, taking things out of context and trusting in the creeds of men

Please show me were I have force scripture and manipulated them to say something that is not writen, ignored the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words and taken things out of context.

In the same light lets apply this standard to your argument.
1)Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,...
2)Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
3)Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
4)Isa 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

1) apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Short Definition: I am dying, am about to die
Definition: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.

2)Original Word: διαχειρίζομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diacheirizomai
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-akh-i-rid'-zom-ahee)
Short Definition: I lay my hands upon, slay, kill
Definition: I lay my hands upon, and so: I slay, kill

3) apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Short Definition: I am dying, am about to die
Definition: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay. & 3 uses the Greek work

4) maveth: death
Original Word: מָ֫וֶת
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: maveth
Phonetic Spelling: (maw'-veth)
Short Definition: death

Firstly please take note of item 2) - defined by Stongs as to slay or kill. this is vastly different from to die. So one again I say to you you are over thinking the passages without allowing the word of Truth to prevail.

Secondly it is the Jews who in killed Jesus - i.e. thinking this will solve there problem - yet He over came death which became the problem to the Jews. Thus Acts 5:30 as quoted is not related to the other three passages you have quoted.

Thirdly please read Acts 5:30 part a = The God of our fathers raised up Jesus

I am not sure what your point is but it is clear Jesus Christ is not dead as you claim.

Lazarus was dead as Yeshua said in John 11:14

Verses John 11:11 - Ok so what is your point here - Jesus is a lair - or are we going to understand the narrative in its completeness - that as believer we too can over come death through faith in Jesus. This is the very heart of the gospel. It is the second death we should concern ourselves about - the eternal separation from the Love of God in his completeness as the trinity.

The death or the death of ones body which you are using to support your argument that Jesus is not God has no foundation is scripture - the very fact that he over came death proves His divinity. Yes I can see you reply here - please remember at this point I am simply discussing your view and am not trying to prove the trinity. Therefore at this point your first premise is as follows :-

Jesus Christ is not God as he died and God cannot die.

Well this is false as Jesus Christ is not dead but seated at the right had of God our Father - or the first person of the Turin Godhead.

This point can be supported through the Baptism of believers and Jesus in comparison to His death on the cross, meaning the death of sin not the death of the person.
 
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gadar perets

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Well then Jesus is dead and Christianity has no foundation.
I never said Yeshua is dead. I believe he was resurrected from the dead by his Father.

Make a choice you can not have it both ways
All men literally die. That death is spoken of AS A SLEEP because it is temporary. That does not change the FACT that when Scripture says a person died, they are truly dead.

Please show me were I have force scripture and manipulated them to say something that is not writen, ignored the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words and taken things out of context.
I did not apply those things to you yet, but to trinitarians in general. We shall see if you do those things as well.

In the same light lets apply this standard to your argument.


1) apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Short Definition: I am dying, am about to die
Definition: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay.

2)Original Word: διαχειρίζομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diacheirizomai
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-akh-i-rid'-zom-ahee)
Short Definition: I lay my hands upon, slay, kill
Definition: I lay my hands upon, and so: I slay, kill

3) apothnéskó: to die
Original Word: ἀποθνῄσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apothnéskó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-oth-nace'-ko)
Short Definition: I am dying, am about to die
Definition: I am dying, am about to die, wither, decay. & 3 uses the Greek work

4) maveth: death
Original Word: מָ֫וֶת
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: maveth
Phonetic Spelling: (maw'-veth)
Short Definition: death
Well, that didn't take long. You have incorrectly assessed the Hebrew and Greek and put false definition and false words in place of the true.

1) apothanein, not apothnesko
2) diecheirisasthe, not diacheirizomai
3) apethanen, not apothnesko
4) motiu?, not maveth

You have given the root word for these, but not the proper tense in which it is written. So, #1, for example, does not mean "I am dying", but "to die".

Thirdly please read Acts 5:30 part a = The God of our fathers raised up Jesus

I am not sure what your point is but it is clear Jesus Christ is not dead as you claim.
I never claimed Yeshua is dead. I said he died. Obviously his Father resurrected him according to this verse. Please do not put words in my mouth. It doesn't promote a fruitful discussion. The important facts here is that Yeshua was DEAD because people laid hands on him and killed him. Then his Father resurrected him. If it wasn't for Almighty YHWH (the greatest being in the universe) resurrecting him, he would still be dead.

Verses John 11:11 - Ok so what is your point here - Jesus is a lair - or are we going to understand the narrative in its completeness - that as believer we too can over come death through faith in Jesus. This is the very heart of the gospel. It is the second death we should concern ourselves about - the eternal separation from the Love of God in his completeness as the trinity.
Of course we too can overcome death through Yeshua. I simply quoted John 11:14 to show that even though Yeshua spoke of Lazarus as sleeping, he knew he was dead. Death for the believer is like sleep in that it is temporary. We will awake in the resurrection.

The death or the death of ones body which you are using to support your argument that Jesus is not God has no foundation is scripture - the very fact that he over came death proves His divinity.
When you overcome death through Yeshua, will that prove your divinity? No. Neither does Yeshua overcoming death prove his divinity. What it proves is that the one who resurrected him is divine. That would be Almighty YHWH who Yeshua declared to be "the only true God" (John 17:3). By this declaration, Yeshua declared that he was not the "only true God".

Yes I can see you reply here - please remember at this point I am simply discussing your view and am not trying to prove the trinity. Therefore at this point your first premise is as follows :-


Jesus Christ is not God as he died and God cannot die.

Well this is false as Jesus Christ is not dead but seated at the right had of God our Father - or the first person of the Turin Godhead.

This point can be supported through the Baptism of believers and Jesus in comparison to His death on the cross, meaning the death of sin not the death of the person.
Again, I never said Yeshua was dead. I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion based on my post.
 
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DWA2DAY

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I all honesty we are going in circles here and I find it pointless. I motivate as follows:-

At times we must accept that we can not understand God's ways. This is a biblical teaching as seen in Isaiah 55:8-9. We should take heed of this.

You have entered the discussion with the assumption that I would manipulate the Biblical Text. In addition you assume your premmise is true thus have no desire to seek a deeper or better understanding of the text.
Trinitarians already force the Scriptures to say what they want them to say. The only way the trinity can be true is by reading things into the text, ignoring the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words, taking things out of context and trusting in the creeds of men

When I use the Greek Strongs dictionary - which is considared by world standards to be authoritive for Bible Scholar to understand the original manuscripts, you say it is unacceptable.
You have incorrectly assessed the Hebrew and Greek and put false definition and false words in place of the true.

You contradict you own argument by accepting the Jesus is not dead but claiming he died on the cross and therefore is mortal. Yet you accept the fact that Jesus is alive. Which proves His immortality.
I'll start with the Biblical teaching that God cannot die.
If Yeshua was equal to God as part of a trinity, he would also have had immortality and could not die. Yeshua died because he did not have immortality.

Your new argument is John 17:3 - humm no offence but this is the typical Islamic argument - however you at least accept the Bible so if this is your claim how do you reconcile this with John 1:15 or Jesus I am statements. Well - you can not as this is a false analogy - Like sending a missionary from your church into Asia for a 3 year mission - While in Asia you declare he is no long a member of the Church and is now a Hindu.

Thus I feel I have nothing to contribute as in you eyes I am not truthful to Scripture and have fabricated and manipulated the original Greek words to suit my argument. Thus conclude I am simple throwing my pearls to the swine.
 
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gadar perets

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I all honesty we are going in circles here and I find it pointless. I motivate as follows:-

At times we must accept that we can not understand God's ways. This is a biblical teaching as seen in Isaiah 55:8-9. We should take heed of this.

You have entered the discussion with the assumption that I would manipulate the Biblical Text. In addition you assume your premmise is true thus have no desire to seek a deeper or better understanding of the text.
How is it that you use Isaiah 55:8-9 as an argument against understanding my view and yet, you profess to know God is a trinity? My assumption that you would unscripturally use the Hebrew and Greek turned out to be correct. You obviously don't care about word tenses.

When I use the Greek Strongs dictionary - which is considared by world standards to be authoritive for Bible Scholar to understand the original manuscripts, you say it is unacceptable.
I did not say Strong's is unacceptable. It is your misuse of it that is unacceptable.
Try using a parsing guide or an analytical lexicon to confirm what you believe.

You contradict you own argument by accepting the Jesus is not dead but claiming he died on the cross and therefore is mortal. Yet you accept the fact that Jesus is alive. Which proves His immortality.
I proved he died and that God cannot die. The fact that Yeshua now has immortality is irrelevant since it was GIVEN to him by his Father. He never had immortality until it was GIVEN to him.

Your new argument is John 17:3 - humm no offence but this is the typical Islamic argument - however you at least accept the Bible so if this is your claim how do you reconcile this with John 1:15 or Jesus I am statements. Well - you can not as this is a false analogy - Like sending a missionary from your church into Asia for a 3 year mission - While in Asia you declare he is no long a member of the Church and is now a Hindu.
A typical response from someone who has no scriptural defense against my view. Guilt by association. Islam believes like you that Yeshua was a prophet. Does that make your belief that he was a prophet wrong?

As for John 1:15;

John 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")ESV as per your request not to use the KJV.
As for the latter part of the verse, the word "before" is from the Greek "protos". Of the 105 times this word was used, it was never translated "before". The most common rendering is "first," however, based on the context, it should be translated as the Emphatic Diaglott has it, "for he is my Superior." "Protos" was also translated "chief" nine times in the New Testament.

As for the "I am" statements, they are just that. They are not statements that Yeshua is the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. That is easily disproved.

Thus I feel I have nothing to contribute as in you eyes I am not truthful to Scripture and have fabricated and manipulated the original Greek words to suit my argument. Thus conclude I am simple throwing my pearls to the swine.
I did not imply you "fabricate and manipulate" intentionally. You obviously don't know or understand the importance of using the correct tense. I pointed out your error in the hope that you would correct it, not hold dearly to it. I would hardly call what you have given me "pearls". Based on your use of Isaiah 55:8-9, we cannot know if God is a trinity or not. Therefore, your pearls may not be pearls at all, but merely costume jewelry.
 
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DWA2DAY

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How is it that you use Isaiah 55:8-9 as an argument against understanding my view and yet, you profess to know God is a trinity? My assumption that you would unscripturally use the Hebrew and Greek turned out to be correct. You obviously don't care about word tenses.


I did not say Strong's is unacceptable. It is your misuse of it that is unacceptable.
Try using a parsing guide or an analytical lexicon to confirm what you believe.


I proved he died and that God cannot die. The fact that Yeshua now has immortality is irrelevant since it was GIVEN to him by his Father. He never had immortality until it was GIVEN to him.


A typical response from someone who has no scriptural defense against my view. Guilt by association. Islam believes like you that Yeshua was a prophet. Does that make your belief that he was a prophet wrong?

As for John 1:15;

John 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")ESV as per your request not to use the KJV.
As for the latter part of the verse, the word "before" is from the Greek "protos". Of the 105 times this word was used, it was never translated "before". The most common rendering is "first," however, based on the context, it should be translated as the Emphatic Diaglott has it, "for he is my Superior." "Protos" was also translated "chief" nine times in the New Testament.

As for the "I am" statements, they are just that. They are not statements that Yeshua is the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. That is easily disproved.


I did not imply you "fabricate and manipulate" intentionally. You obviously don't know or understand the importance of using the correct tense. I pointed out your error in the hope that you would correct it, not hold dearly to it. I would hardly call what you have given me "pearls". Based on your use of Isaiah 55:8-9, we cannot know if God is a trinity or not. Therefore, your pearls may not be pearls at all, but merely costume jewelry.

Your response does not justify a more informed reply.
I wish you well and am some what disappointed that your inability to offer valid scriptural proof to my argument has resulted in your preconceived slanderous accusations against me which I find unfitting coming from a fellow brother in Christ.

In closing and for the record I can scripturally refute all the points you have made new and old, however ears that will not hear eyes that will not see do not required the attention you seek, and thus choose to walk away and shake the dust from my feet in regards to this discussion.
 
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