If you commit sin are you still of God? Yes or no

Oscarr said:

I don't think that it is appropriate to use the reference as an excuse for sin because Paul clearly asked, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!!!"

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So if we are not to continue in sin, that means we can overcome our sin by the power of the Lord working in us here in this life, yes?


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Jason0047 said:

So if we are not to continue in sin, that means we can overcome our sin by the power of the Lord working in us here in this life, yes?


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Yes ... it means that we can, ... but sometimes we fail, ... like Moses.

But failure, like Moses', is a different thing than rebellion, ... like Korah's ...

Moses (at the rock) experienced FAILURE in his attempt to serve God.

Korah directly rebelled against God.

Both sinned, ... but the consequences were different ...

LoveofTruth said:

Yes the word "overcome"came to my mind today as i I as listening. Many verses confirm this overcoming. It is through faith we overcome the world as John said in 1 John . But some will see this need to overcome as "works that we do of our own strength to be saved and keep saved. It is Christ that liveth in us and as we abide in Him we can DO all things and overcome all things that would hurt us. And we read more (to those who disagree , ask yourself what happens if we don't overcome"


1 John 5:4,5
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

By "faith" Christ dwells in our hearts and work in us.

Revelation 2:7
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Revelation 2:11
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Revelation 2:17
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Revelation 2:26
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

Revelation 3:5
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Revelation 21:7
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

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Beautiful the Word of God is.
So simple.

Here are more (as I am sure you are aware of).

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Revelation 12:11).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Revelation 3:21).

"... in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." (Romans 8:37).

56 "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [Note: For our other readers here, please also see Romans 13:14].
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 15:56-58).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

And the much neglected aspect of our victory (by others).

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might." (Ephesians 6:10).

Love, peace, and blessings be unto you, brother.


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A_Thinker said:

Yes ... it means that we can, ... but sometimes we fail, ... like Moses.

But failure, like Moses', is a different thing than rebellion, ... like Korah's ...

Moses (at the rock) experienced FAILURE in his attempt to serve God.

Korah directly rebelled against God.

Both sinned, ... but the consequences were different ...

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I am not denying that believers cannot honestly stumble into sin.
But this would be on their road to recovery in overcoming sin in this life and it would not be a part of them making excuses that they will always sin in this life.
So you believe in Sinless Perfectionism?
Do you believe just one unrepentant sin can separate a believer from God (like say "murder" or "adultery")?
Or do you believe all present and future sins are automatically paid for?

Side Note:

Sorry, I am talking to a lot of different people here so it is hard to keep track of who believes what. So I need to know what you believe. Thank you. Most today justify sin on some level, so I am a bit defensive or skeptical when Christians tell me they believe in holiness, or they appear to defend morality, etc.


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Jason0047 said:

So if we are not to continue in sin, that means we can overcome our sin by the power of the Lord working in us here in this life, yes?


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I have to say yes but you'll have to agree that it is a developmental process. Its like the graph that gets closer and closer to the vertical axis but never actually gets there. I think sanctification is like that. I think that it is impossible for us to be entirely sanctified in this life because if we could, we wouldn't have to experience physical death. Our physical bodies and its desires are corrupt through the sin of Adam and in order for us to be fully perfected, that body has to die. But because Jesus rose again and His physical body was changed to His glorified body, so we will rise again in the same way.

There is never any excuse to tell ourselves that we can take a moral holiday and sin for a while and expect forgiveness at the end of it. But there are areas that all of us find difficult to overcome. This is where 1 John 1:9 comes in. We need to keep short accounts with God and confess every sin we know about. When God first revealed Himself to me, I spent some time going through every sin I could remember from as far back as I could remember, confessed it and got forgiveness.

Charles Finney has instructions about this in his book on Revival. Winkie Pratney in his "Youth Aflame" has a section which does the same thing. Neil Anderson in his book "The Bondage Breaker" goes through all the areas where a person could have invited an oppressing demon to have influence in his life. It is very comprehensive and it involves confessing and renouncing any sin, event, or action done by the person or done to the person that could have opened the person up to demonic influence. It has the same principle as confession renunciation.

Repentance is not connected with confessing a particular sin and deciding not to do it any more. Jesus never told anyone to repent, He just said, "Go and sin no more." Repentance is a comprehensive change of direction in life. See Acts 3: 19: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out". I don't see any scriptures that uses the word "repent" other than turning away from the world and turning to Christ as Saviour in the act of conversion.

So, we are going to have some level of sin until the day we die. 1 John 1:8 says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". The point I want to make in all my posts is that we must be careful that we don't try and overcome sin in our own strength, this may lead to frustration, or proud self-righteousness, and a "holier than thou" attitude if we achieve some success by ourselves. But in our areas of struggle we listen to the Holy Spirit when He convicts and guides us, then He will work sanctification in us.

"...the LORD loveth the righteous" (Psalms 148:8).

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

So...

7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:7-8).

For...

"...God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalms 7:11).

"He that committeth sin is of the devil..." (1 John 3:8).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).


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Oscarr said:

Just wondering...Do you think that believers who overeat and cheat their customers are the norm in most churches, along with fire and brimstone preachers? Concerning overeating, Jesus said it was not what goes into a person, but what comes out in the form of the works of the flesh in Galatians 5. So, overeating may not be a sin at all in most cases, but gossiping and character assassination that goes on in a lot of churches definitely is.

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Cheating ones customers is the norm both inside and outside the church, and in a lot of ways, its made worse within by the use Christian branding to try and get away with more than one might ordinarily be able to. Alas, not all folks are in a position where this is readily apparent, but cheating folks has been ingrained in our culture as marginally ok, or even advocated as ok... I remember for years as a church musician as well as Sunday school teacher seeing intellectual property rights being thrown to the wind as "we can't afford it, don't worry, we are doing this for God's glory, its ok". Even way back when I had to make a big stink about building and vehicle safety, as "we can't afford it, and besides that God won't let anything bad happen anyhow". Such can and does obscure the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Obesity is a serious public health issue which ties into corrupting the temple thing, needless use of medical resources, depletion of the commons and thus fails the loving ones neighbor thing. However, it can also be brought about by physical, mental, and even spiritual afflictions so whether it is a sin or not for a given individual is situational like many other sins. In my pastor friends case, he said it was for him, just as it is for me. For other folks, it might not be. Fire and brimstone pastors exist, but even a laid back pastor can express disappointment in their congregants in learning of their indiscretions. I concur with you that the gossip and character assassination bits are huge problems.

When my grandson( Tyler) reached the age of two( known as the terrible twos in the UK) I put him under my laws so to speak. I asked him not to go into my computer room and touch the computer, telephone or television. What was the result of Tyler being put under my rules/ laws? If he could sneak away without being seen, I would inevitably find him in the computer room, touching one of the things I had asked him not to touch. So, the result of me putting him under my laws, simply stirred up excitement in him to break them. If I had never given him my laws, he would inevitably at times have been drawn to the computer, telephone and television, but the allure to do so would not have been so great. And occasionally, his mother would put him on a naughty chair for being disobedient.
So we didn't have a very good agreement/ covenant. Tyler was given rules/ laws and sometimes punishment for breaking them, and This simply stirred up excitement in him to break the rules.
But what if Tyler could have been born again if you like, and this time, he was born instinctively knowing my rules in his mind, and in his heart he wanted to obey them( far fetched I know) under these circumstances, I wouldn't have to issue rules to Tyler, with the threat. of punishment if he broke them. For he instinctively wants to live as I desire him to. Now This would be a much better covenant. For by me not issuing Tyler with my laws, what stirred up the excitement in him to break them in the first placehas been removed. So I get a much better behaved grandson.
But no matter how much Tyler wants to obey what is on hus heart, he never would perfectly obey for he I only a child. However, when he does make mistakes he will feel bad, for he is going against what is on his heart, so I dont have to threaten him with punishment for breaking the rules. He punishes himself when he slips up.
That's a far better covenant.
If only!!

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LoveofTruth said:

"Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye,..." Mark 1:14,15)

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Yep. You're right, but He was talking about a general change in the direction of life and not about specific sins.

For through the law, I died to the law so that i might live for God.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. The life I live now, I live by faith I the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing
Gal2:19-21

Oscarr said:

I have to say yes but you'll have to agree that it is a developmental process. Its like the graph that gets closer and closer to the vertical axis but never actually gets there. I think sanctification is like that. I think that it is impossible for us to be entirely sanctified in this life because if we could, we wouldn't have to experience physical death. Our physical bodies and its desires are corrupt through the sin of Adam and in order for us to be fully perfected, that body has to die. But because Jesus rose again and His physical body was changed to His glorified body, so we will rise again in the same way.

There is never any excuse to tell ourselves that we can take a moral holiday and sin for a while and expect forgiveness at the end of it. But there are areas that all of us find difficult to overcome. This is where 1 John 1:9 comes in. We need to keep short accounts with God and confess every sin we know about. When God first revealed Himself to me, I spent some time going through every sin I could remember from as far back as I could remember, confessed it and got forgiveness.

Charles Finney has instructions about this in his book on Revival. Winkie Pratney in his "Youth Aflame" has a section which does the same thing. Neil Anderson in his book "The Bondage Breaker" goes through all the areas where a person could have invited an oppressing demon to have influence in his life. It is very comprehensive and it involves confessing and renouncing any sin, event, or action done by the person or done to the person that could have opened the person up to demonic influence. It has the same principle as confession renunciation.

Repentance is not connected with confessing a particular sin and deciding not to do it any more. Jesus never told anyone to repent, He just said, "Go and sin no more." Repentance is a comprehensive change of direction in life. See Acts 3: 19: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out". I don't see any scriptures that uses the word "repent" other than turning away from the world and turning to Christ as Saviour in the act of conversion.

So, we are going to have some level of sin until the day we die. 1 John 1:8 says: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". The point I want to make in all my posts is that we must be careful that we don't try and overcome sin in our own strength, this may lead to frustration, or proud self-righteousness, and a "holier than thou" attitude if we achieve some success by ourselves. But in our areas of struggle we listen to the Holy Spirit when He convicts and guides us, then He will work sanctification in us.

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Problem #1. ~ "You do not understand that Sinless Perfectionism is a teaching in the Bible."
For when you say that you will not overcome sin in this life, it not only goes against living holy it goes against the Bible. For if a person is sober free or free from alcohol, they cannot say they are really free from their addiction unless they have overcome it. In other words, you cannot say you are walking holy if you are also stumbling into sin. It would destroy every verse in the Bible that talks about perfection and holiness for us believers. See my 50 points in Scripture on Sinless Perfectionism here. For me, I see it as a declaration that you are going to sin at some unknown future date (as if it was a decree written in stone). You cannot stop sinning, so when you do sin, it is no big deal because that is a part of your nature. This is not what the Bible teaches. God's people are not a defeated people who are slaves to sin in this life (See 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, Colossians 1:28, 1 Peter 1:16).

Problem #2. ~ You do not understand what repentance is.
You believe repentance is something different other than what the Bible says.
Repentance is actually confessing sin to the Lord (which is then followed by the proper fruits or deeds of repentance).

Read Matthew 3:6 (and compare it with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5). This is repentance.

As for the normal after effects of repentance: Well, John also said to for them to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8). This lines up with Acts that says we are to perform deeds befitting of repentance (Acts 26:20).

In Acts 8, Peter tells Simon to repent of his wickedness (his sin) and to pray to God so as to be forgiven because his heart is not right with God (Acts 8:17-24).

Furthermore, Jesus defined repentance for us so you really cannot change it's meaning into what you like it to be.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites told the people to:


God noticed that they turned from their evil or wickedness and God had then turned away from bringing judgment or wrath He was going to bring upon them originally. This truth is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (Which is another way of saying a person is forsaking their sin because they are walking uprightly or walking in the light - Also see 1 John 2:3-6).

Problem #3. ~ You do not understand what 1 John 1:8 is actually saying.

Then what is 1 John 1:8 saying?

What is relevant to understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves it into a past declaration. There are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,


In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

As for overcoming sin:

Well, 1 John 1:9 is just one of the methods of overcoming sin. It is not the sole method mentioned in the Bible of course.

I believe there are several methods to help you to overcome your sin by God's Word and with the help of Jesus.

1. Remove yourself from sinful environments (if possible) and or get rid of things that cause you to sin. In Genesis: Joseph had literally ran away from the temptation of sexual sin.
   
   
2. Pray to God so as not to be tempted. It is part of the Lord’s prayer for you to pray so as not to be tempted into sin. God will guide and protect you if you are serious in praying for this. In fact, fasting will help you with this, as well.
   
   
3. Obey God’s righteous ways. The more you love God and love others and obey His Word and stay in His Word and pray, the more you will not even have a chance to sin or do the wrong thing. But the more you walk in God's Word by the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh.
   
   
4. When you are tempted, quote Scripture. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, He quoted Scripture to defeat the devil. So when some specific sin is bothering you, find all the verses you can that are victory verses over that particular sin. A good general verse is, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” You can say these verses to yourself silently under your breath (with nobody hearing).
   
   
5. Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians or Godly Christians to help you to overcome certain sins. The Scriptures say, bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. So seek true fellowship and ask for their help.
   
   
6. Hide God’s Word in your heart. Memorize Scripture. David said he hid God’s Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord.
   
   
7. Confess of your sins (Which you already mentioned). 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I would also encourage you to check out Allan Ballou's videos here:






Alan Ballou's YouTube Page.

Alan Ballou's website is:
How to stop sinning | HowToStopSinning.com


Anyways, I hope this helps.
May you please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


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What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, nay. I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said: Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment aroused all manner of concupiscence in me, for without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came sin revived( or sin consciousness sprang to life) and I died
And the commandment that was ordained to life( if i obeyed it) I found to be unto death( for I could not keep it)
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment deceived me, and by it slew me
Rom7:7-11

Paul says, "For I lived without the Law once." How is that possible?
Well, Paul is talking from the perspective in this part of Romans 7 as an Israelite living thru out history and what it was like when they first received the Law (This would be in verses 7-13).

Then in verses 14-24 is where Paul talks from his perspective or experience as a Pharisee recounting his experience with the Old Law and his struggle in trying to keep it (without Jesus Christ).


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Do we then nullify the law by this faith( a righteousness of faith I Christ not observing the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom3:31

For:

The power of sin is the law( of righteousness) 1cor15:56

Hence:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law( of righteousness) but under grace( a righteousness of faith in Christ) rom6:14

Believers die to the Old Law and not all law, unless one wants to propose that they are not under the Command or Law that says they must believe in Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23).

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However as Jesus said:
Many after drinking the old wine dont want the new, for they say: The old is better luke5:39