Can we be sure that worshipping Jesus is not idolatry?

Kenny'sID · Mar 22, 2017

alucardr said:
The Catholic church traces itself back to St. Peter through apostolic authority of the popes.

"Traces itself" well, of course they did. Hello? Do you really believe there are not those who would disagree? All denominations can be traced back to where they started, and claim the same thing about the Bible. Looks like an attempt to take authority by deception.

You didn't answer my question of where that Catholic authority is Biblical.

Walter and Deborah · Mar 22, 2017

Walter and Deborah said:
Can we be sure that worshipping Jesus is not idolatry?

And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Luke 9:35

Walter and Deborah said:
Can we be sure that worshipping Jesus is not idolatry?

cavell · Mar 22, 2017

logicality said:
As far as I know Christians are supposed to worship no one but God himself. I know Jesus claimed to be God, but it cannot really be proven that he was. If I were to be a Christian, I'd probably be that way for one main reason, the cosmological accuracy of Genesis..and because I'd have faith that Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah. But I'm using faith very literally here. I'd have faith because I believed it was true, not that I necessarily knew it was true.

There are other options, however. I'm close to accepting that the Torah (Pentateuch) was divinely inspired, but not necessarily the whole Tanakh (Old Testament). We could conclude that Moses was divinely inspired but not necessarily the writers of the Babylonian captivity. The Torah predicts a prophet but it is not very specific. The rest of the OT is very specific on what the Messiah will be like. It also predicts a Messiah, more than a prophet.

If one takes the entirety of the Old Testament seriously, there probably isn't a better candidate for Messiah than Jesus of Nazareth. I do question if we should take the entire Old Testament seriously, however. Why should we? Moses never spoke of such things that the writers of the rest of the Old Testament did. We know Moses was divinely inspired, but were these other writers?

If they weren't, Christians could very well be practicing idolatry. How can we be sure of it all? If we 'gamble' and bet on Christ, that itself is a sin according to the Bible, first of all, and secondly, if we lose the bet, and Moses was indeed divinely inspired, we'll surely be damned for practicing what God says is idolatry, no?

On the other hand, if we deny Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah, surely we'll be damned if we're proven wrong in the end, no? It seems like we're damned either way.

I can inform you dear brother that there is more factual evidence to support the Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus than can be found to support the existence of any other person who has walked upon this planet.
God Bless you dear friend

Jesus said "Ask and it shall be given, Seek and you will find, Knock and it will be opened. If you do this you will find Jesus, I can guarantee it.

Not_By_Chance · Mar 22, 2017

logicality said:
Well, I do not know if Jesus raised himself from the dead, there is no definitive proof that he did..the tomb was left unguarded for a period of time, it's possible that his body was stolen..as for the people that thought they saw Jesus, perhaps they lied? Perhaps, so they could be revered as heroes?

I understand it is unlikely..but please, if we are so sure of it all, why do we even have Atheists? These are smart people. Do you not think they would have thought over these arguments first? I'd like to know the Atheist perspective..perhaps I should go and ask them. I myself am not an Atheist nor Christian after all, I am somewhere in the middle..lost..

I cede liklihood is low of it all being a sort of sham, I think you are smart people for believing what you do. I just don't understand, how can we have such smart people opposing it? There must be a reason, there must be something you are missing..unless Atheists really are not that smart after all?

There are a couple of excellent books which I think you ought to read. One is "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" and the other is "The Stranger on the road to Emmaus." Also, regarding the idea of writing one's own Bible, it has to be realised that the Bible is not one book but a collection of many books written by over 40 people on different continents over a period of hundreds of years and yet it still has one coherent theme throughout (which you'll discover if you read the books I've recommended). That's no mean feat to achieve is it? And don't forget regarding Jesus's execution, the Romans (or anyone else for that matter) could easily have killed the fledgling Christian movement stone dead if they had produced Jesus's body - but no-one did. That's very telling. Also, the disciples changed from fearfully hiding themselves away under threat of death to become preachers to the people testifying to the risen Christ. It has been said many times that they would have willingly died for being sure of Jesus's resurrection, but they wouldn't have done it if they had known it was a lie.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Mar 22, 2017

alucardr said:
It was pronounced by the Catholic church. If you don't accept the authority of the Catholic church, then you become vulnerable to heresy like doctrines denying Christ's divinity. God is a trinity, three persons that are one God.

what... that's a bit extreme buddy. If you don't accept the authority of the catholic church you're vulnerable?

Albion · Mar 22, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
And who pronounced it heresy?...God? Man?

I'd have to answer "God," since the Bible is quite explicit in a number of places in saying that God is one...and Jesus is God. People try to sidestep that information by pointing to one or two verses that can most easily be misinterpreted. Most of the time, when some poster starts to say that Jesus isn't God, we already know which verse he's going to present to us (and which dozen others he won't). But if anyone wants to bend the facts, he can always say, correctly, that the church pronounced the official heresy on the basis of God's word.

frettr00 · Mar 22, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
what... that's a bit extreme buddy. If you don't accept the authority of the catholic church you're vulnerable?

When you believe it to be the original and true church of Christ, it's not so extreme. That isn't to say that other Christians don't have truth. They do, but I often see them buying into strange and false doctrines not originally taught by the Catholic church. Denying Christ's divinity is one of them.

Kenny'sID · Mar 22, 2017

Albion said:
I'd have to answer "God," since the Bible is quite explicit in a number of places in saying that God is one...and Jesus is God. People try to sidestep that information by pointing to one or two verses that can most easily be misinterpreted. Most of the time, when some poster starts to say that Jesus isn't God, we already know which verse he's going to present to us (and which dozen others he won't). But if anyone wants to bend the facts, he can always say, correctly, that the church pronounced the official heresy on the basis of God's word.

Please..one or two verses? I think I mentioned the Bible is loaded with clues, as if we should even need them. I'm not going to quote half the bible here. Read all the parts where Jesus talks about the father, he prays and refers to the father as the father, not him.

Sorry to say, guys, after reading all the stuff I just mentioned in the bible it seems laughable to think any way other than I do, but if you all want to go with what's fashionable, have at it...me? not interested.

No one answered this so, I ask again, how can Jesus sit on the right hand of God, if he is God?

See what I mean by clues, and I'm talking easily seen, not complicated common sense clues.

DingDing · Mar 22, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Wrong...Bible believing christian...No denomination.

And FWIW, You're fortunate I refuse to report others, but can't guarantee someone else won't. You stepped way over the line.

If you deny the full Deity of Jesus, you ain't Christian. How about that for stepping over the line?

Albion · Mar 22, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Please..one or two verses?

My apologies. Did you ask for that and I forgot to include some?

Anyway, here are some:

John 1:1 and following
John 1:18
Colossians 2:9-10
Romans 9:5
John 20:27-28
John 10:33
John 5:18
John 8:57-58
2 Peter 1:1

and then there are those verses that show Jesus doing what only God can do--in other words, divinity in action if not a specific claim.

Kenny'sID · Mar 22, 2017

I'm sorry Al, but I read the first three and they say what you all claim in a way that is about as clear as mud, every one of them. You have been conditioned to see something that isn't there in my view and it's really quite phenomenal.

Still no one on the question of how can Jesus sit on the right hand of God if he is God? I've asked that, what? about three times already? I was at least expecting some kind of twist to explain the problem with that away, but nothing?

Albion · Mar 22, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
I'm sorry Al, but I read the first three and they say what you all claim in a way that is about as clear as mud, every one of them. You have been conditioned to see something that isn't there in my view and it's really quite phenomenal.

Read them all before you come to that conclusion. Frankly, while some may perplex you, there are plenty that are so clearcut that they are almost impossible to deny.

Still no one on the question of how can Jesus sit on the right hand of God if he is God?

It's poetic language, that's all. None of us literally thinks that there are three gods sitting on kingly thrones, side by side, in heaven all day. And by the way, the wording is "sitteth on the right hand OF THE FATHER," which itself should settle your question about "how can Jesus sit on the right hand of God if he is God."

Kenny'sID · Mar 22, 2017

Not perplexed in the least, unless it's as to how people conclude what they do from what they do. I could read them all and then some, but nothing will change. There is just way too much to thwart it, besides.

Albion said:
It's poetic language, that's all. None of us literally thinks that there are three gods sitting on kingly thrones, side by side, in heaven all day.

I hope no one thinks that, there is only one God. Right hand side on the throne...pretty specific. How do you know it's poetic...see, we need to show our conclusions with the bible, prove them out. I say it because the Bible says it, and there is no indication it's poetic...your turn.

Albion · Mar 22, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
I could read them all and then some, but nothing will change. There is just way too much to thwart it, besides.

Well, I guess I appreciate your candor in admitting that you won't be persuaded by whatever the Bible has to say on this subject, but I still wish you'd said that before asking me to find verses that show Jesus to be God.

Kenny'sID · Mar 22, 2017

Albion said:
Well, I guess I appreciate your candor in admitting that you won't be persuaded by whatever the Bible has to say on this subject, but I still wish you'd said that before asking me to find verses that show Jesus to be God.

Sorry to put you throuh the trouble. next time you'll know better.

Jeepneytravel · Mar 22, 2017

Jesus" birth is prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 7.9, 7.14, 9.6, 28.16, Micah 5.2, and referenced in Matthew 1.18-23..
Jesus said He does nothing by Himself..but God directs His actions..John chapters 5,6,12,14.
Jesus glorifies God by saying "anything you ask in prayer of God, in my name will be given you" Mark 11.24, 18.19,John 14 verses 13 & 14...
We are to go to God in prayer, and beliefs, in the name of Jesus Christ...

Walter and Deborah · Mar 22, 2017

Albion said:
Read them all before you come to that conclusion. Frankly, while some may perplex you, there are plenty that are so clearcut that they are almost impossible to deny.

It's poetic language, that's all. None of us literally thinks that there are three gods sitting on kingly thrones, side by side, in heaven all day. And by the way, the wording is "sitteth on the right hand OF THE FATHER," which itself should settle your question about "how can Jesus sit on the right hand of God if he is God."

Jesus is the Son of the living GOD. Matthews 16:16 13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed itunto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Winken · Mar 22, 2017

logicality said:
As far as I know Christians are supposed to worship no one but God himself. I know Jesus claimed to be God, but it cannot really be proven that he was. If I were to be a Christian, I'd probably be that way for one main reason, the cosmological accuracy of Genesis..and because I'd have faith that Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah. But I'm using faith very literally here. I'd have faith because I believed it was true, not that I necessarily knew it was true.

There are other options, however. I'm close to accepting that the Torah (Pentateuch) was divinely inspired, but not necessarily the whole Tanakh (Old Testament). We could conclude that Moses was divinely inspired but not necessarily the writers of the Babylonian captivity. The Torah predicts a prophet but it is not very specific. The rest of the OT is very specific on what the Messiah will be like. It also predicts a Messiah, more than a prophet.

If one takes the entirety of the Old Testament seriously, there probably isn't a better candidate for Messiah than Jesus of Nazareth. I do question if we should take the entire Old Testament seriously, however. Why should we? Moses never spoke of such things that the writers of the rest of the Old Testament did. We know Moses was divinely inspired, but were these other writers?

If they weren't, Christians could very well be practicing idolatry. How can we be sure of it all? If we 'gamble' and bet on Christ, that itself is a sin according to the Bible, first of all, and secondly, if we lose the bet, and Moses was indeed divinely inspired, we'll surely be damned for practicing what God says is idolatry, no?

On the other hand, if we deny Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah, surely we'll be damned if we're proven wrong in the end, no? It seems like we're damned either way.

Matthew 7:7-8
Luke 11:9

Here is how you do that: John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 8:1. Now read and heed Romans 10:8-13.

You do the above and then stop to say "Yeah, but........." ???

Read 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Now, seeker, re-read Romans 10:8-13.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Mar 22, 2017

alucardr said:
When you believe it to be the original and true church of Christ, it's not so extreme. That isn't to say that other Christians don't have truth. They do, but I often see them buying into strange and false doctrines not originally taught by the Catholic church. Denying Christ's divinity is one of them.

I don't deny Christ divinity and I can't say my apostolic beliefs line up with Catholism, like many I can't say I beliebe it's the first church either, obviouslly if I did I would be catholic. yet I'm not into strange demonic doctrine or any of that. I disagree that someone has to believe some denominational church is the first church in order to know truth either. They just have to believe the first church aka the church of acts and the apostoles doctrine....

SolomonVII · Mar 22, 2017

I think that we can be sure that we are not committing idolatry by worshiping Jesus. Assurance comes in reasoning out what the attributes of God would if, if God is believed to be a being that which none greater could exist.
There are a multitude of reasons that would lead to the conclusion that God is a greater being through Jesus than would be the type of divine being that excluded Jesus.
For example, the heroism is an aspect of greatness that requires the vulnerability and the bravery to face overwhelming odds, and this is not possible for a being who does not share with us the human experience. A divine being without humanity could never be a hero, and therefore when we worship Jesus as Second Person of Trinity we are worshiping a being greater than the being that would not include Jesus.

Can we be sure that worshipping Jesus is not idolatry?

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